Elements Mod

CalebJ
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Re: Elements Mod

by CalebJ » Post

pups wrote: What about fuel rods? You do not need to build complex uranium dust enrichment factory with centrifuges in order to obtain 3,5% dust, you can just use Thorium for fuel rod crafting.
(But i consider, the enrichment factory is very interesting task in the game! And each advanced player must create such factory. I would remove the thorium recipe of the rods.)
I realized that you are right. That 99x5 thorium recipe is infinite, so I changed one of the slots to be group:neptunium x 40. Centrifuges are very interesting, indeed, but they can also create significant load on the server, so if the atomic constructor recipes are a bit easier, I won't mind; however, in this case, it was a bit too easy ;)

pups
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Re: Elements Mod

by pups » Post

CalebJ wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 13:58
I realized that you are right. That 99x5 thorium recipe is infinite, so I changed one of the slots to be group:neptunium x 40. Centrifuges are very interesting, indeed, but they can also create significant load on the server, so if the atomic constructor recipes are a bit easier, I won't mind; however, in this case, it was a bit too easy ;)
About Fuel Rods.
Does "group:neptunium" mean any Np isotope? Anyway Np is rare element, we can obtain it from uranium ore, as i remember. So, will we have two methods, as i understand:

1. Dust method. Infinite fuel, because Corium. But long time to obtain 3,5% dust (from initial 0,3% dust) and relatively complex laboratory. Then we can use classic recipe, where one fuel rod requires 5 x 3,5% dust (ingots). Also we have advanced recipe with 4 x 3,5% dust and 100 Fluorine.

2. Elements method. Finite fuel, because rare elements alike Neptunium. But relatively short time to obtain components? And simple laboratory.

About Centrifuges and server load.
If you think, that centrifuges are objectionable machines, you can try the following variants:

1. Increase power consumption of apparatus. Now the Centrifuge consumes 5500 EU (one battery within). While the Material Reducer consumes 9000 EU (one battery within). So, try to increase Centrifuge consumption up to at least Material Reducer one.

2. Reduce number of 3,5% dust in the recipes. Will people build smaller systems then? Or run centrifuges shorter time then? You can change recipes adding some infinite (usually from plants) elements instead of the dust. We have five slots in the Atomic Constructor. So, for example:

Code: Select all

3,5%Dust|3,5%Dust_____|3,5%Dust______|3,5%Dust______|100F(Fluorine)
3,5%Dust|3,5%Dust_____|3,5%Dust______|200As(Arsenic)|200F(Fluorine)
3,5%Dust|3,5%Dust_____|300Hg(Mercury)|300As(Arsenic)|300F(Fluorine)
3,5%Dust|400Na(Sodium)|400Hg(Mercury)|400As(Arsenic)|400F(Fluorine)
3. Think philosophically. Many types of activity load server a lot. Machines, tubes, filters, etc. Players will load server anyway. The essence of the play is to load server. People wants to get pleasure from the game. So, it is not nice to reduce server load for account of reducing interesting of the play with choosing objectionable machines.
We need just good manual on the TA's web site about playing process, for example, recommendations about using Digiline Injectors to push even numbers of dust to create more compact systems, Guill's golden logic units, etc.

About fuel balance in the game.
Now we can easily use elements as nuclear fuel for Digtron. The fuel balance in the game has been destroyed! Chemical fuel is waste thing now! Because Digtrons used to be market for chemical fuel! What will you perform about this situation?

I would remove direct using of elements as nuclear fuel in the Digtrons. Chemical fuel is intended for Digtrons. Nuclear fuel is intended for factories with many electric machines.
Anyway i would augment efforts for nuclear fuel obtaining by increase number of steps in the Decay Accelerator. Thorium has no such steps. Polonium has only one step. Obtaining process is too easy now. While nuclear power consisted in the elements is huge.

About Particle Accelerator.
Helium-4 is fuel in fact! Because this isotope is consumed always we run the Particle Accelerator. Any fuel must be infinite! But He-4 is finite now.
Previous recipe of He-4 producing was good (Pu-238 -> U-234 + He-4). Players spent huge time and energy to produce He-4. Players had to build large electric power plants. It was very difficult challenge. And He-4 used to be infinite.
If you think, that players produce too many He-4 isotopes, you can try the following variants:

1. Increase time of producing. Decay Accelerators are slow machines yet. If it is not sufficiently, you can adjust them to be slower.

2. Increase number of steps in the decay chain to obtain He-4. Previous chain had only two steps before He-4. While full uranium decay chain had eight steps.
If you do not want to use Uranium element, you can use decay chain with Thorium as initial element. Or you can involve some new infinite radioactive element (from some plants) as initial for a longer decay chain.

3. Involve chance. Make Decay Accelerator produce He-4 with some chance. For example, only 1/2 of all conversions on certain step in the decay chain will give He-4.

Rare elements as Te, Ge, Zr, In, etc are hardly bound to the playing process yet. Many machines and tools require such elements now. So, players can not ignore Particle Accelerator in the game. That is why we need to have infinite He-4.

CalebJ
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Re: Elements Mod

by CalebJ » Post

pups wrote: About fuel balance in the game.
Now we can easily use elements as nuclear fuel for Digtron. The fuel balance in the game has been destroyed! Chemical fuel is waste thing now! Because Digtrons used to be market for chemical fuel! What will you perform about this situation?

I would remove direct using of elements as nuclear fuel in the Digtrons. Chemical fuel is intended for Digtrons. Nuclear fuel is intended for factories with many electric machines.
Anyway i would augment efforts for nuclear fuel obtaining by increase number of steps in the Decay Accelerator. Thorium has no such steps. Polonium has only one step. Obtaining process is too easy now. While nuclear power consisted in the elements is huge.
Yes, I agree with you. Maybe I should work on trying to limit the use of these elements outside of the RTG.
pups wrote: Rare elements as Te, Ge, Zr, In, etc are hardly bound to the playing process yet. Many machines and tools require such elements now. So, players can not ignore Particle Accelerator in the game. That is why we need to have infinite He-4.
No, everything can be obtained ... that has a use ... without using the particle accelerator. The particle accelerator is basically a poor man's (or maybe rich man's) hack to getting a particular element. They can all be obtained by natural methods. The only thing that *needs* the particle accelerator, is of course, high level elements, which are useless. Helium-4 was never meant to be, and will not be infinite. However, I think you are missing a few ways to make it, I will tell you that ;)
pups wrote: 1. Increase time of producing. Decay Accelerators are slow machines yet. If it is not sufficiently, you can adjust them to be slower.
The decay accelerator now uses a logic where the more elements you put into it, the faster it operates. Just wanted to note that, as it might be helpful. :)
pups wrote: Does "group:neptunium" mean any Np isotope?
yep!

pups
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Re: Elements Mod

by pups » Post

CalebJ wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 14:30
everything can be obtained ... that has a use ... without using the particle accelerator. The particle accelerator is basically a poor man's (or maybe rich man's) hack to getting a particular element. They can all be obtained by natural methods. The only thing that *needs* the particle accelerator, is of course, high level elements, which are useless. Helium-4 was never meant to be, and will not be infinite
About "hack".
Particle Accelerator is pearl of Elements mod! It is not "hack", as you have said. It is very great idea about conversion one elements into others by spending huge electric energy and time.
But if i do not have infinite Helium-4, i lose the pearl.

About "without using the particle accelerator".
For example, i have never seen Te (Tellurium) and Cf (Californium) directly in some block or other object in the game world. While these elements present in the Crafting book. Though probably my elements map in my notebook is not perfect.

Sometimes direct obtaining is too costly. For example, elements consisted in illumishrooms can be obtained in tiny number with loss mushroom itself, but we could use this relatively rare and farm-unable mushrooms for magic sticks crafting. Also, if we want to obtain some sub-element from unreal ores, for example, Rarium, Mithril, we have to lose initial material for ever.

Eventually, some players do not like permanent life in mines with pick-axe in the hands, they like to create laboratories and factories. And use industrial approach for rare elements obtaining instead of classic pick-axe method.

That is why, Particle Accelerator is very useful machine. And challenge to build and use laboratory with Particle Accelerator is very interesting. So i do not understand why players may not have infinite "fuel" for this machine.

CalebJ
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Re: Elements Mod

by CalebJ » Post

pups wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 17:01
CalebJ wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 14:30
everything can be obtained ... that has a use ... without using the particle accelerator. The particle accelerator is basically a poor man's (or maybe rich man's) hack to getting a particular element. They can all be obtained by natural methods. The only thing that *needs* the particle accelerator, is of course, high level elements, which are useless. Helium-4 was never meant to be, and will not be infinite
About "hack".
Particle Accelerator is pearl of Elements mod! It is not "hack", as you have said. It is very great idea about conversion one elements into others by spending huge electric energy and time.
But if i do not have infinite Helium-4, i lose the pearl.

About "without using the particle accelerator".
For example, i have never seen Te (Tellurium) and Cf (Californium) directly in some block or other object in the game world. While these elements present in the Crafting book. Though probably my elements map in my notebook is not perfect.
I can confirm again, the Particle Accelerator is a purely optional machine, currently, in the elements mod. Every element can be obtained, that has a real use, without using the particle accelerator. Californium does not have a real use - you can craft it to Californium dust (the only usage), but this does not equal a use, because it is not used in an actual crafting recipe that will 'use' it up in.

This is exactly why helium-4 will never be infinite and never was supposed to be. The whole particle accelerator is just a way around other methods of getting *use-able* elements.

Deuterium bombardment may be a new feature of the particle accelerator in an upcoming version, BTW.

pups
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Re: Elements Mod

by pups » Post

Ok, it has been sadly to watch good module degradation. TA's variant of elements used to be very promising.
As i expected, elements module is unusable now. Along with broken fuel system.
Of course, we can still use material reducers. It is so interesting. And drive digtrons with polonium stack for hundred years. It is circus, not play.
If somebody manage to create normal elements module, that has manual, clear aims, logical integration with game world, then write into this topic, please.

pups
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Re: Elements Mod

by pups » Post

Let us continue elements discussion.
I have some proposals and questions.
Feel you free to express your opinion, even you have never played TA server.

I would divide conception of elements into two big parts.
1. Obtaining of elements from game world objects.
2. Obtaining of elements from other elements.

The first part is relatively clear. Because we just dig blocks and use Material Reducer.
The second part is more complex and obscure. But more interesting meantime.

Now we have only real implementation of elements module for Minetest on the TA server, as i know.
We can see Particle Accelerator as machine that can realize the second point above.
The Particle Accelerator is ordinary one-block machine, being supplied with electric power of Technic module objects.

About size. Why is Particle Accelerator so small? Just one node.
Usually such apparatus is a huge machine. It poses a long tube or a big circle.
Probably, we need something like Digtron. Complex construction of many blocks, but static by contrast with real digtrons.
For example, a line of ten blocks. Probably, more blocks will grant more productivity to the apparatus.
Different blocks will bring different functions - magnets, refrigerators, storages, etc.

About particles. Why does Particle Accelerator use Helium-4 only? And why is He-4 disposable?
Helium is used for magnets' cooling. And for bombardment are used kernels of elements, also electrons, protons, also maybe H-2 (Deuterium), H-3 (Tritium). Anyway, in the game we could use any two elements and would obtain some third element after the collision. With some chance factor.

I understand, that programming implementation is difficult. But, without the second point in the list above, the elements will be always just addition to classic "dig and run" playing process.

chef trip
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Re: Elements Mod

by chef trip » Post

i agree with pups here, it's not only frustrating as a player, but also a dick move on the devs part to deliberately change the rules to make it "secret" again because players are discussing the mod and sharing what they've learned about it.

"hey, let's make a mod that is so hard to figure out, and then when ppl start to figure it out, we'll obfuscate it, because, this mod should be secret!"

yay fun!
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are. – Kurt Cobain

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rheo
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Re: Elements Mod

by rheo » Post

i have no ownership of this mod, but if anyone wants access to the data i used to create the elemental composition of a huge array of nodes based on IRL analysis, let me know. it's been modified since for in-game balancing, but i put a huge amount of effort into it, and the code has never been made open.

while i appreciated the little bits of custom stuff that tunneler's abyss added to the minetest ecosystem by keeping things secret, it's long past the point where the server matters anymore, and i'm happy to share what i contributed.

Other_Cody
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Re: Elements Mod

by Other_Cody » Post

Secretz on tunnelers.miraheze.org

archive link

shows

Flux and Secretz
At the beginning, flux collaborated with CalebJ on the mod elements. Namely, he created numerous recipes for material reducer. Once he made a spreadsheet containing recipes he created and CalebJ asked him not to publish it. Some players interpreted that nobody is allowed to spoil the secret recipes to other people. However, that was not because it would be forbidden to spoil the recipes in general but because of a restriction which held only for him and a few other players.

so anyone can make a

Technic based mod based on the licence technic is under to make a public elements mod.

Maybe pups

could do it using the library in the tower on Cody Island and the information on this page pups know right now.

I think other players also have books with information about this mod.

I think many players do type about it in chat.

A mod like that may be nice to add to the ContentDB under the same licence technic is under, if you base the code on technic.

If the admins restriction is for themselves from publishing it based on only knowledge of the code, it could be based on information in chat and books.

Also the maker of this mod could likely just make the mod public before someone else makes a mod based on Technic so at least that first mod maker gets into the git repo's list of who made what in the mod.

The mod is likely to be made anyways, for at least archival and stability reasons, so releasing code from most servers will not likely hurt the servers.

The servers will still have most of the map the players made and also those that play on a server can not be forked seeing that they are people and not code.

And a nice community is only possible by having the nice players, so some servers may be played because of the players and not just the code base and the map.

Even I could try to make the elements mod, if I ever make a git repository.

Or the makers of technic seeing that they know the code better than I do could likely make one very quickly, like the X-Decor mod was made into a libre version (free software, free media).

Maybe it could be called libre-elements.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

pups
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Re: Elements Mod

by pups » Post

Hello, Other_Cody.
I am glad to see you here:)

This topic is quite old. I created it in summer of year 2021.
Later, in autumn of year 2022, I wrote a new basic manual on the Elements mod, with images.
I published it in the TA's topic (Board index -> General -> Servers -> [Server] Tunnelers' Abyss) https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=417657#p417657.

Of course we can resume discussing the Elements module here.

What can I say about creating a "libre", new module Elements?
I am not a programmer. I am but a player:) I like just to play Minetest:)
Sometimes, when I am not so lazy, I can write some manual, draw an easy texture for the game; and this is my ceiling.
So I will not figure in creating modules.

If one created an open-source Elements mod, I would be glad of course.
But this is a task of extreme difficulty. It is work for years I think.

That is why personally I just continue playing Minetest, primarily on the TA server so far:)

Also, I can note that a problem of such modules is to find the balance between the initially open information and the enigmas, tasks hidden in the game. Of course the module can have no hidden tasks, but such an approach decreases interest of the game.

As well, other modules like Underground Challenge, More Ores, Extra Ores, More Trees, etc should exist on a server in order to work together with an Elements module to increase amount of sources of elements so that raising interest of the game.

So, as I already said, developing and using an Elements module is a very difficult task.

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