Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

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freshreplicant
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Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by freshreplicant » Post

Preface:

This is a very basic sketch of a game which could theoretically be built on Minetest. It is not likely to ever be a real game, since I am neither a programmer or artist, but it mainly serves as a sort of brainstorming exercise for the type of game I would like to play on Minetest. When I came up with the idea, I had in mind that it could be created wholly from scratch, or be a conversion/fork/revival of Minetest the Game.

It is not a 'realistic' concept
, as it would quite likely require many technically adept people with diverse expertise to pull off properly and quite possibly has features that would not be easy or possible to implement in the engine currently. In coming up with the concept, I let my imagination and the 'rule of cool' run wild, because really I am just doing this for fun.

My primary aim was to address the aimlessness/lack of a concept so evident in Minetest, and in some cases, with other MTG based games.

The core rule governing this project would be to start concept first before coding a single thing or creating a single node. This rule would continue as the concept is fleshed out: come up with concepts for your mobs, where they fit into the ecosystem, what their purpose is, what makes them worthwhile to interact with for players, what do they consume, what prey/predators do they have, etc. Each mob should have at least a bit of a flavour text or lore to it (if it's not something fairly universal like...a rabbit). This level of thought should go into trees, tools, armours, raw materials, colour palettes, textures, and so on, also all before anything is put down in code or textures. Concept art might be a preliminary step too. Once the concept fleshed out enough for a fairly playable experience, then the coding and work on textures/models could begin.

EDIT: Oh and one more governing principle, especially at the start, would be less is more, quality over quantity when it comes to blocks. If a block does not have high quality textures, it should not be in the game yet. Programmer art is often necessary, but arguably is one of the worst downsides to 'mod soup MTG'.

Working Title: The Phasing Fortress

Premise:

You are not invading their realm through puny obsidian portals – they are invading yours – and in a much grander fashion.

Gameplay basics:

MTG/Minecraft/Terraria-esque game, build, craft, survive, fight mobs but built around the central premise of a series of huge, generated overword structures to clear. Really though, lore-wise, it is one single structure, a mighty phasing fortress. Think Dracula’s Castle in the Catlevania series meets Minecraft’s Woodland Mansion on steroids. Each phase of the structure will represent a tier of difficulty, available materials, treasures and enemies to fight. After clearing each phase, you will have a short window to evacuate the area before the fortress is ripped out of existence (killing you in the process if you are too close). Then will come a window of time to build, farm, explore the overword, tame creatures, etc. while you wait for the next, more challenging incarnation of the phased fortress.

Expanded concept/lore:

At first, whatever lurks on the other side of the dimensional divide does not anticipate meaningful resistance from your world.

Initially the fortress will take the form of a small structure, a symbolic gesture that a new power has arrived and claimed the lands you inhabit. If you, or perhaps you and some adventurous friends, are drawn to the structure to claim its otherworldly resources or artefacts and you manage to overcome its escorts – beware. A countdown has begun. In their fury, the would be conquerors will rip what remains of the fortress, surroundings and all, out of reality and back into their mysterious otherworld. Once the void energies begin to crackle and hum over the structure, you had better flee with whatever you’ve manged to loot, lest you be torn into shreds by the eldritch powers of the inter-dimensional rift.

Then a new countdown begins. Your insolence has been noticed, and the drones on the other side will work feverishly to ready the next phase of the phasing fortress. Each time you ‘clear’ a fortress phase, a more fiendish array of chambers, challenges and invaders will await you – but so too will new treasures, materials and wondrous artefacts for the taking.

Sometimes, you will clear a ‘phase’ by slaying one particular great invader (either by a brutish show of raw strength or through cunning and stealth) other times you will have to slay all underling invaders in that phase. Sometimes, though, you may need to solve a puzzle or reassemble infernal devices. The invaders jealously covet their secret technologies and knowledge, so they would rather you not live to share them.

Each time you clear a phase, the next phase will appear that much further out in the unexplored (or more accurately ungenerated) reaches of the overworld, encouraging you to venture out and see more corners of your world.

To guide you in your hunt for the next phase, and to herald its impending arrival, you will be able to construct a dimensional resonator from pieces salvaged from the first phase. The resonator will countdown the time until the next phase will appear, and upon its arrival will act much like a compass to nudge you towards the invasion site.

Sometimes, after a phase has been wrest from the overworld, you will notice subtle remnants left behind in its wake. Perhaps the crater left after the dimensional shift will feature new growing (or even glowing) crystals or a vein of precious metals unlike anything in your realm. Or perhaps new flora will bloom in rings around the area formerly occupied by the fortress, while other times some strange liquid will pool in the pockmarked post-phase landscape. As you fight off the invaders though, you may find that the ordinary, harmless creatures of the woodlands and meadows about you may be changed, subtly but terrifyingly, through contact with the otherworldly. Faster, more dangerous, bloodthirsty or clever...

Should you try to overwhelm the otherworldly invaders by sheer numbers and band together with fellow adventurers, you may find that the waves and its invaders are just that bit more difficult for each companion you round up. But perhaps, so too will the power of the artefacts they carry with them...

Finally, once the last phase of the fortress has been cleared, you can try and take the fight to them by using what you have learned from them to break through the veil that separates their world from yours. But beware...on the other side, you will find every phase of the fortress you have cleared clustered together into the fortresses’ true, final form. Fight your way through the hordes of otherworlders and challenge the Overlord to avenge the destruction and change they have wrought on your world.
Last edited by freshreplicant on Sat Jul 24, 2021 20:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by pampogokiraly » Post

Very cool concept and story. As far as I can tell it's basically minecraft gameplay-wise (mine, craft, build, fight), but with an entirely different story.

It totally sounds like a game that will never be made, but I can very much relate to that. I am also working on a game idea in the same way as you did ("I don't care about what you can't do with minetest"), and that will also be the kind of game idea that no one will ever turn into a reality.

It is nice to see that others do this as well and not just me :)
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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by freshreplicant » Post

pampogokiraly wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 18:46
Very cool concept and story. As far as I can tell it's basically minecraft gameplay-wise (mine, craft, build, fight), but with an entirely different story.

It totally sounds like a game that will never be made, but I can very much relate to that. I am also working on a game idea in the same way as you did ("I don't care about what you can't do with minetest"), and that will also be the kind of game idea that no one will ever turn into a reality.

It is nice to see that others do this as well and not just me :)
Thank you, I'm glad you like it! I've been sitting on the idea for ages, but I just figured it might be fun to share it even though I don't have the skills or means to make it a reality.

Do you have your ideas written up anywhere? Or are there early versions of it implemented somewhere?

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by pampogokiraly » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 20:25
pampogokiraly wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 18:46
Very cool concept and story. As far as I can tell it's basically minecraft gameplay-wise (mine, craft, build, fight), but with an entirely different story.

It totally sounds like a game that will never be made, but I can very much relate to that. I am also working on a game idea in the same way as you did ("I don't care about what you can't do with minetest"), and that will also be the kind of game idea that no one will ever turn into a reality.

It is nice to see that others do this as well and not just me :)
Thank you, I'm glad you like it! I've been sitting on the idea for ages, but I just figured it might be fun to share it even though I don't have the skills or means to make it a reality.

Do you have your ideas written up anywhere? Or are there early versions of it implemented somewhere?
no there is non because I keep rewriting it xP

tho I am getting better and better at game design with each version. I learn a lot by finding game design issues in my ideas, and trying to solve them.
Hopefully I will be able to make one final version which would be a mixture of every one of my good ideas
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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by pampogokiraly » Post

here is something kind of related to my game: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=26611&hilit=alchemy
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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by celeron55 » Post

Nicely written, but more importantly you have a good mechanical solution that relates to what I've wondered for years.

One problem in Mine*-style gameplay is that usually in order to progress you have to play mostly as a wanderer, nomad, explorer - many terms for the same thing. But it's an engine designed for persistent digging, building and crafting - it doesn't make any sense. In your gameplay instead of going out to find the challenge, the challenge comes to you, as a new structure in your neighborhood. You can now build your own fortress, mines and whatnot, and it's useful all the way through the game. Ripping out the structure as a step of gameplay is also playing straight into the strengthnesses of the engine, not against it.

I would like to see some of this put into practice. It could even work for both types of multiplayer - co-op and competitive, even without extra configuration.

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by Astrobe » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 14:18
Nicely written, but more importantly you have a good mechanical solution that relates to what I've wondered for years.

One problem in Mine*-style gameplay is that usually in order to progress you have to play mostly as a wanderer, nomad, explorer - many terms for the same thing. But it's an engine designed for persistent digging, building and crafting - it doesn't make any sense.
Voxel games are deep down building games, the transition to RPG-style game is something we try to bolt on, like a certain Stroustrup guy did with objects and C. It kind of sort of works, but it's not pretty.

More accurately, the sandbox/open world flagship feature, the practically infinite world and infinite building, conflicts with RPG game mechanics which have a start and an end. Long-lived MMORPG like WoW only survived so far by adding more and more contents - extending the story, adding textures, adding weapons, armors, etc. - resulting a power creep sometimes.

An infinite world must come with an infinite gameplay. This is the Holy Grail for voxel games, in my opinion. It's not the Holy Grail for all games - Story-driven games like Mass Effect can and probably should be finite and yet can have some replay value because of other qualities - just like how you can watch again and again good TV shows despite the fact you know every detail of the plot.

The only way to achieve infinite gameplay is, as far as I can tell, to have the players themselves generate the story (typically from a solid lore/universe, that's why you so often see SW/LoTR adaptations in moddable games).

That means, you have to drop the "G" from "RPG". That is, not a role playing game, but a game that supports role-playing. The words are in a different order, but that makes a whole different beast.
In a nutshell, you don't provide goals (better weapons, better armor, quests, you name it) ; you provide the things from which players can build goals. For instance you design your game economy so that veteran players profit from giving odd jobs to newcomers (eg repetitive tasks like cutting wood), and newcomers benefit from taking those jobs.

This is a difficult thing to do, because most players expect games with pre-made stories and pre-made goals, and players willing to actually build a game (not in the programmatic sense but in the "postgrammatic" sense, that is constructing a narrative from past or present events and facts) are even more rare. I fear the last true computer role-players are hiding in obscure MUD servers.

Another thing to mention is that there are different types of players. You mentioned wandering/exploring. This is one of the categories identified by Bartle.

I think I belong myself to the explorer-type, and the procedural generation of MT makes me very happy. But I can see how the editable world can meet the needs of socializers (which can be farmers/traders in MT because of the "activation bubbles" induced by ABMs and timers) or killers (either PvP or PvE). In my view, only the "achievers" category is really problematic when you try to create infinite gameplay with finite content, because those players are probably the most contents-hungry (to the point of absurdity - I have seen mmorpg players rushing the max level only to sit on their level 999 and complain about the lack of content updates).

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by freshreplicant » Post

celeron55 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 14:18
Nicely written, but more importantly you have a good mechanical solution that relates to what I've wondered for years.
Thank you, glad you like it. There's still rough edges and things that can be further ironed out, but it's a sketch of the kind of game I'd like to play in Minetest.
celeron55 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 14:18
One problem in Mine*-style gameplay is that usually in order to progress you have to play mostly as a wanderer, nomad, explorer - many terms for the same thing. But it's an engine designed for persistent digging, building and crafting - it doesn't make any sense. In your gameplay instead of going out to find the challenge, the challenge comes to you, as a new structure in your neighborhood. You can now build your own fortress, mines and whatnot, and it's useful all the way through the game. Ripping out the structure as a step of gameplay is also playing straight into the strengthnesses of the engine, not against it.
I sort of approached it as a combination of both game styles. I've seen from Minecraft (and Minetest), that despite the obvious appeal of the infinite sandbox, upended lego box type of gameplay which is kind of included by default, many players seem to want some element of 'RPGs' or at least a fantasy setting (the latter is in my mind more important, I'll come back to it). At the same time though, I wouldn't want this game idea to enforce these elements on players if they do not want to pursue them, or if they would rather spend more time mining, building, or farming than fighting. Which is why, yes, the structures will appear in the overworld, but they would appear just beyond the explored terrain.

That means, if a player wants to stay where they are and build, farm, mine or whatever it is to their hearts content, they can - but they also know that adventure is just around the corner if they should wish to seek it. Even if they are 'explorers' only one phase will generate in the overworld at a time, and they will know roughly what compass direction it is in. This means that if it spawned to the North, they can still explore in all the other cardinal directions without fear of coming in range of the structure.
celeron55 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 14:18
I would like to see some of this put into practice. It could even work for both types of multiplayer - co-op and competitive, even without extra configuration.
From my personal experience, after playing Minecraft, Minetest and such games alone for some time (maybe even obsessively at first) it becomes much more fun to play with others, even if it is just 1 other person. This variable and mixed gameplay style then should lend itself to different types of players simultaneously. If one or more of you want to hold down the fort, or play homesteader, architect or interior decorator, you can do so, while the more adventurous, combat oriented people can seek out glory, fight foes and maybe also bring home new resources and pretty blocks for these other types of players, creating a sort of symbiosis that encourages cooperative play.

As an optional feature, I had the idea that servers could activate a mode where with each additional player in the session, the difficulty of the various opponents increases, but so too does the quality of loot. That way, the difficulty level should be able to scale and not become a total cakewalk if 100 players storm somewhere scaled to be challenging for 10 players max. The way I see it though, all of these features and should be configurable or toggleable.

You don't want structures to spawn at all? Ok, there's a setting for that. You want to make the structures appear faster or slower? Set the intervals to your hearts content. Or maybe you want them to spawn very far away...or right in the middle of your builds, causing chaos and mayhem? Configure that to your hearts content.
Astrobe wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 17:44
Voxel games are deep down building games, the transition to RPG-style game is something we try to bolt on, like a certain Stroustrup guy did with objects and C. It kind of sort of works, but it's not pretty.
Before I engage with your thoughtful post, I need to make the disclaimer that this thread and concept is really just a thought exercise in what I personally want to play, and at most something I think I could convince a few other people to play with me. It is a near 100% certainty it will never be more than the digital equivalent of doodles on the back of a napkin.

I did not set out to create the ideal voxel game, or even to make a bold declaration about what voxel games are or are not, or should be or should be or not be. The reason being mainly, from reading about and playing lots of other people's games or visions for games built on the MT engine, I can see that nearly everyone wants something else from this experience and sees voxel games differently. The great thing is that voxel games are all about potential, so naturally there are many avenues one can pick to explore in their game or mod. Some choose to go the full unadulterated creative route, some the PvP route, some the PvE route, others the survival route, or the puzzle/Rubrick's cube meets Minecraft route, or some mix of all of these.

I love lore-rich experiences, that transport you from your ordinary life into a totally new setting, with a new horizon of possibilities, so I have always played RPG games (usually single player). But I am not at all an achievement hunter or min-maxer, which might explain why I never really got hooked on MMORPGs. If I find myself too worried about stats, or making the exact right choice, plot or gear wise, this often saps my enjoyment altogether.

As much as I love RPG games like the Baldur's Gate series, or games like Mass Effect, I often daydream about what it would be like if I could do things that are just out of bounds or very out of bounds but still firmly embedded in that rich setting. Like just or example, if I could set up my own shop on the streets of Baldur's Gate, or just build my own house in the sticks of Amn, farming and tending to animals while always keeping a watchful eye out for encroaching ogres, bandits or hobgoblins. The voxel game genre is the only game genre I know where I could conceivably do both. Would doing both mean that it is now no longer possible to only one or the other perfectly? Almost certainty, but as they say, perfect is the enemy of good.

That's why really, if I were to purse this idea seriously, the absolutely, overwhelmingly important aspect of this game would be 'lore' or 'atmosphere' - even more than even the mechanics of the titular 'Phasing Fortress'. This doesn't mean cutscenes, or rigid, unconfigurable gameplay elements, but just means that if you include a randomly generatable or encounterable element, be it a mob, structure, ore, metal, flower - it will have some sort of flavour to it, in how it looks, or what niche it occupies, or what purposes it serves by default. At minimum, holding, seeing, using or fighting these things should evoke some feeling or significance in the player. These descriptions should not be so specific as to enforce one reaction, but just enough that they aren't just amorphous bits and bytes to be shuffled back and forth or prodded occasionally. In my mind, this is something that unites all good 'RPG' experiences, no matter how different their stat system or combat style.

Ideally these objects and beings shouldn't overly prescribe how you choose to interact with them, but allow you to use them as a live-action narrative foil, just like writers use archetypes and tropes to construct a narrative or universe for their readers to enjoy, regardless of whether they personally chose to subvert these narrative cues or just to employ them in the expected way, but still focus on the quality of their execution.

I think the Zelda and Pokemon series could serve as inspiration here, because though I have never played it, I hear that Breath of the Wild is phenomenally successful. It seems to scratch some of the itch of 'I want to explore exactly THIS setting, but more my own terms'. The Pokemon series to my knowledge doesn't have an instalment like that, but I have often heard people say they wish they had something like that in that setting. Everything in that world has a certain feeling (each town, each Pokemon, each 'type', etc.) and people still approach these games their own ways. It's certainly rife for min-maxers, but some really identify with their Pokemon or the feeling of adventuring in that world. Either way, most people seem to love soaking up the setting of the various regions.

Ideally this game would be a Minetest game through and through, which means that it would be infinitely configurable, tweakable and moddable. Cut, paste, expand to your hearts content. BUT, it would be careful to do one thing well: lay a concrete and unified foundation, an atmosphere or setting that you can build onto, complement or contrast with. That something I don't thing MTG managed to do. So maybe something a bit more like the Skyrim modding ecosystem, minus the attempts at micro-transactions and other proprietary headaches. Ideally that would mean that it's easier to avoid the 'mod soup' feel that modded MTG has, even when try your best to avoid it. The game should give you an intriguing aesthetic, lore and feel to build on coherently if you find it lacking.
Astrobe wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 17:44
For instance you design your game economy so that veteran players profit from giving odd jobs to newcomers (eg repetitive tasks like cutting wood), and newcomers benefit from taking those jobs.
I had to pull this one out on its own to give my very personal and subjective take on this...but coming home from my full time job to run around doing menial tasks for other players in some sort of hierarchy (especially if they are anonymous strangers, where inevitably some...interesting...folks will accumulate) is the absolute last thing I would want to do. 🤣

That's not to say that I can't see instances where something similar might work for others, or even the majority of players...but for me, just me alone...no...please...no!

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by Astrobe » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 16:51
Before I engage with your thoughtful post, I need to make the disclaimer that this thread and concept is really just a thought exercise in what I personally want to play, and at most something I think I could convince a few other people to play with me. It is a near 100% certainty it will never be more than the digital equivalent of doodles on the back of a napkin.

I did not set out to create the ideal voxel game, or even to make a bold declaration about what voxel games are or are not, or should be or should be or not be.
To be clear, I did not believe you claim you had the ultimate game idea, nor did I wanted to criticize it in any way. My post was mainly a response to C55 on the contradiction between what voxel tech facilitates and what we try to do with it.

I would suggest, though, that you don't say that the game you described is just a dream. In my case, I started with a defunct futuristic MMO with strong FPS elements. I ended up with a fantasy world and magic, yet I am satisfied with the result (well in some way I am not, because I've been changing in for three years now, but each version is really the last one...).

I did not look closely at your concept, to be honest, but some parts might be unrealistic, some parts might be doable. Identify the doable parts, start from there, then adapt. I had to adapt a lot to the shortcomings of MT. It can be frustrating at times, but it can also be fun and generate new ideas. Again, I did not examine your concept so I don't have anything particular in mind, but probably somethings simply won't work - not in the technical sense, but in the game mechanics / game play sense. Survival is all about adaptation (well, there's luck too).
Astrobe wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 17:44
For instance you design your game economy so that veteran players profit from giving odd jobs to newcomers (eg repetitive tasks like cutting wood), and newcomers benefit from taking those jobs.
I had to pull this one out on its own to give my very personal and subjective take on this...but coming home from my full time job to run around doing menial tasks for other players in some sort of hierarchy (especially if they are anonymous strangers, where inevitably some...interesting...folks will accumulate) is the absolute last thing I would want to do. 🤣
I've heard this type of argument before, it's weird how people imagine the worst things. In reality on a server with the typical MT playerbase size, players are interested in keeping newcomers. And they can feel your mood, adapt to your personality - unlike an NPC. It's not your typical F2P MMORPG that will try to keep all but the most toxic players, because you have to have a large amount of players to pay your servers, your devs and your artists, and you don't want to spend too much on moderators.

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by freshreplicant » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 19:04
To be clear, I did not believe you claim you had the ultimate game idea, nor did I wanted to criticize it in any way. My post was mainly a response to C55 on the contradiction between what voxel tech facilitates and what we try to do with it.
Ah I see, I just assumed it related to my idea because of the quote and the thread. My bad.
Astrobe wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 19:04
I would suggest, though, that you don't say that the game you described is just a dream. In my case, I started with a defunct futuristic MMO with strong FPS elements. I ended up with a fantasy world and magic, yet I am satisfied with the result (well in some way I am not, because I've been changing in for three years now, but each version is really the last one...).
I don't really have the technical know how when it comes to programming or texture art, and even if I did, I just don't really have the time to sit down and do a project like this. I just thought it'd be fun to share the idea anyhow.
Astrobe wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 17:44
I've heard this type of argument before, it's weird how people imagine the worst things. In reality on a server with the typical MT playerbase size, players are interested in keeping newcomers. And they can feel your mood, adapt to your personality - unlike an NPC. It's not your typical F2P MMORPG that will try to keep all but the most toxic players, because you have to have a large amount of players to pay your servers, your devs and your artists, and you don't want to spend too much on moderators.
Hm, it's not just the issue of players, but the idea in general. I can see this being part of a server's economic system, i.e. somebody cuts wood and sells it, somebody else buys it and so on. But just personally I would not be interested in running errands for somebody else.

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by rob123 » Post

this is probably possible. What is so impossible about it?
If my post says something, it is a opinion and not fact unless i say so

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by freshreplicant » Post

rob123 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 08:47
this is probably possible. What is so impossible about it?
Ability and time mainly. I don't have the programming or artistic skills to pursue the project. If I had the time to really dedicate myself to making a game in Minetest, maybe I could hone those skills enough, but I have more pressing things to take care of most days.

I will probably however come back here sometimes to develop the concept a bit, just for fun.

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Re: Game Concept/Daydream: The Phasing Fortress

by duckgo » Post

a bit of terraria is very interesting :)

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