Infinite world size

Helen Pixels
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Re: Infinite world size

by Helen Pixels » Post

30-60k in all directions is more than enough! I didn't even know this game existed before today and I am currently experimenting with combinations of mods... but I have played Minecraft for three years, and never have I gone further than around 12K blocks from spawn, I never needed to. The only reason I ever went that far was searching for specific items (eg, melons, because farmer villagers buy them), but I have often not needed to go further than 2k blocks. I can't imagine my space requirements in this game are going to be significantly different, especially for single player.

The fact you are able to go thousands of blocks down in this game boggles my mind... so familiar and yet so different.

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Kilarin
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Re: Infinite world size

by Kilarin » Post

Come visit us in Xanadu sometime. I've got a tower that goes up over 600 nodes high, and a mine below it that reaches down to around -30899 (the server limit) :)

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Re: Infinite world size

by Helen Pixels » Post

Kilarin wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:05
Come visit us in Xanadu sometime. I've got a tower that goes up over 600 nodes high, and a mine below it that reaches down to around -30899 (the server limit) :)
That's pretty amazing. You're obviously an experienced player. Could you point me in the direction of a decent mining guide,. so I know what resources are found at what depth? I am assuming that some things are only found deep down.

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Kilarin
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Re: Infinite world size

by Kilarin » Post

Helen Pixels wrote:That's pretty amazing. You're obviously an experienced player. Could you point me in the direction of a decent mining guide,. so I know what resources are found at what depth? I am assuming that some things are only found deep down.
The problem with answering that question is that the answer is: "It Depends"

Minetest is not really a game, its a voxel engine. Every game can be set up completely differently depending on what mods are being run. On the multiplayer server Xanadu, the mods (and therefore the world) is very different from what you might find on a different multiplayer server, or in any particular type of single player game you choose to start.

Xanadu, for example, is based primarily on Ethereal. Unusual biomes, lots of different kinds of edible plants, etc.
https://content.minetest.net/packages/T ... /ethereal/

I tried to write my own game once upon a time. It was going to based around a world with multiple different "realms" connected by giant beanstalks. The theme would have been a combination of magic and steam punk.
viewtopic.php?t=22669
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11346
But, alas, creating a game is a LOT of work and I got busy with other things and never got it past more than the proof of concept stage. <sigh>

Anyway, the point is, every different type of Minetest game will have it's own rules specifying what kind of ores there are. At what depths (or heights) they can be mined. And what they can be used to craft. It could be ANYTHING. There are games out there that put you on an airless moon. Games themed after Lord Of The Rings. Games focusing on magic, other games focusing on steam punk. Alas, Only a few of them really finished yet.

If you choose to drop by Xanadu, give me a shout (or anyone else that is online) and we will help you get started. There are a plethora of other multiplayer servers where I'm certain you can find lots of help as well. Each one different. And there are also several different single player game types you can try.
Diversity is part of the joy of Minetest!

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Re: Infinite world size

by Helen Pixels » Post

Oh, I've been exploring the bewildering number of mods, and mods that depend on other mods, and I have tried ethereal, I am assuming that it is this mod which is responsible for the existence of frostwood? or is it the moretrees mod I had installed? I've never seen anything like this, and once I learn enough I will probably end up preferring it to Minecraft because of the enormous level of choice available regarding what goes into a world. To come from Minecraft to this is like taking the red pill seriously. I thought I'd be able to just jump straight in, but.... I now know I have a lot to learn. Right now I am pretty much getting used to the controls, I have never used a mouse and keyboard for this type of computer game before, in fact the most complex thing I have played on my laptop prior to this was forge of empires, some emulated amiga games, and bejewelled. For Minecraft I didn't dare even try, I got the bedrock verson for the switch. My computer is low spec, so before today, I thought it would be impossible for my laptop to handle any 3d game, it still shocks me it runs this with no difficulty and without my CPU being pushed to the limit. Overall I am extremely impressed by my experience so far, even with the frustrations. I am glad that the crafting recipes for basic tools have remained the same, so some things are familiar.

I will check out Xanadu, I might be better starting off playing in a server than single player before I know what I am doing properly. What mods does that server run, apart from ethereal? It will be nice to see what other people have been able to build too. In minecraft I;ve always built large houses and farms, I always ended up with a rather sizeable sheep farm so I could use beds to expand villages and as TNT in the nether in order to mine netherite... I know you have a nether with some mods but I don't know if beds still explode there, or if there is such a thing as netherite in those mods either. So I might not need so much wool unless I decide to use it as a building material.

Also, is there an equivalent of redstone? If so which mod would I need? I don't use it for much except automatic rails in and out of mineshafts, and sometimes for redstone lamps which come on automatically when it goes dark. For that I'd probably also need the equivalent of nether quartz for the light detector, if such a thing exists here.

When I visit ethereal I will use the same username as here, Helen Pixels.

Oh, and I know gamedev takes time. I am using RPG maker to make a 2D single player RPG game, but making all my own graphics is taking ages. Pixel art is easy, but it takes time to do right and make stuff look really good. It is going to take me as long to create all the music as well, but it will be worth it in the end because when it is done I want to sell it, and you can't do that using the runtime package which are more or less stock assets used a million times already.

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Re: Infinite world size

by jwmhjwmh » Post

Helen Pixels wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 23:07
Also, is there an equivalent of redstone? If so which mod would I need? I don't use it for much except automatic rails in and out of mineshafts, and sometimes for redstone lamps which come on automatically when it goes dark. For that I'd probably also need the equivalent of nether quartz for the light detector, if such a thing exists here.
The equivalent to redstone is a mineral called "mese". You can find it in the default game, but you need the "mesecons" mod to make circuits and stuff.

Regarding where to find ores, I had the same question at one point. I had to look at the mod implementation to find the answer: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... n.lua#L409.
These apply for the default game, "minetest_game", unless you're using mapgen v6:
  • Coal can be found basically anywhere.
  • Copper and tin can be found at Y level -64 and below.
  • Iron can be found at Y level -128 and below.
  • Gold can be found at Y level -256 and below.
  • Mese crystals can be found at Y level -512 and below.
  • Diamond can be found at Y level -1024 and below.
  • Mese blocks (9 mese crystals packed together) can be found at Y level -2048 and below.
Ores of a specific type also tend to get more common as you go deeper.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Kilarin » Post

thanks jwmhjwmh! A more useful answer than mine!
Helen Pixels wrote: What mods does that server run, apart from ethereal?
The forum thread with a list of mods is here: [url]viewtopic.php?t=8494[url]
Mesecons is COOL. Not running on Xanadu though, because it can burn up a LOT of CPU.

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Re: Infinite world size

by proller » Post

Helen Pixels wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:00
30-60k in all directions is more than enough! I didn't even know this game existed before today and I am currently experimenting with combinations of mods... but I have played Minecraft for three years, and never have I gone further than around 12K blocks from spawn, I never needed to.
Some servers have roads build by players from 0 to 31k.
Some mapgens is not boring and flat as default and you need to go far away from spawn.
Some peoples have ideas about impossible? challenges on crazy mapgens with 500-1000km structures

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Re: Infinite world size

by Linuxdirk » Post

Helen Pixels wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:00
30-60k in all directions is more than enough!
No, it isn't. You can walk there very easily making "nomad runs" (basically just continuously exploring the world by walking in one direction without a large base and only staying for 2-3 ingame days at one place) impossible. If the tiny 30k nodes from 0,0,0 are enough for you, good. But its an arbitrary limitation, and a useless one, too.

And since Minetest has no dimensions support the space is even more limited if you want to add something like the "Nether" for example, because it's in the same world taking up space there.

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Re: Infinite world size

by runs » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 08:41
Helen Pixels wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 22:00
30-60k in all directions is more than enough!
No, it isn't. You can walk there very easily making "nomad runs" (basically just continuously exploring the world by walking in one direction without a large base and only staying for 2-3 ingame days at one place) impossible. If the tiny 30k nodes from 0,0,0 are enough for you, good. But its an arbitrary limitation, and a useless one, too.

And since Minetest has no dimensions support the space is even more limited if you want to add something like the "Nether" for example, because it's in the same world taking up space there.
Look the Minecraft Console World limit in consoles:

https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/World_size

5120 × 5120 blocks max and it is playable.

For me Minetets world size is gigantic and enough. But I can accept that for others could be that no.

What I consider ridiculous is the height, I mean 31500 blocks down. But it's optional, nobody tells you to use them, right?

The same for the width, maybe it's not enough for some, maybe, but Minetets was designed that way.

Anyway what does it matter if the Nether is in another dimension or the same world and underground? You can use those 31500 blocks for more than just chopping. An example is the Multidimensions mod.

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Re: Infinite world size

by runs » Post

Terraria is (or was) limited in extension. Minecraft is not infinite, past one point weird things happen, real floating point numbers go crazy. Anf the height is now only 256 nodes!
Last edited by runs on Fri Jan 28, 2022 14:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Infinite world size

by runs » Post

In short, the concept of infinity is impossible to imagine. It is something that escapes the human being, for the moment.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Linuxdirk » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 14:39
In short, the concept of infinity is impossible to imagine. It is something that escapes the human being, for the moment.
While you can't create infinite things in finite space you can create algorithms that can generate everything, even this text.

Minetest worlds don't need to be infinite. The infinity aspect comes from the gameplay constraints. If you can't traverse the world within X time units than for this duration the world is infinite. And it makes a giant difference if the time unit is a few minutes or ~800 hours of continuously walking in one direction.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Blockhead » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 14:36
Look the Minecraft Console World limit in consoles:
I wish people would stop mentioning this. What one game does on a gaming console, with a limited architecture and limited available space, should have no bearing on what another game ought to be capable of doing in the presence of terabytes of disk space and other serious computer/server hardware.

Here's an easy counterpoint: Shrink the world size to 1 node = 0.25m. Now a player is 7-8 nodes tall, and the world is only 8.8 km big in each dimension. Tiny!

Or again: Minetest world based on GIS data of terrain and buildings. 30 km is not that far! It is about 30 km from Melbourne CBD to Ringwood (Victoria, Australia) or from the centre of Berlin to Potsdam (Brandenburg, Germany).
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Re: Infinite world size

by Helen Pixels » Post

runs wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 14:38
Terraria is (or was) limited in extension. Minecraft is not infinite, past one point weird things happen, real floating point numbers go crazy. Anf the height is now only 256 nodes!
Minecraft has millions of blocks in every horizontal direction, but compared to this game is extremely limited vertically compared to this game, even when you take cliffs and caves into consideration. The Nether remained unchanged by the update, but that was to be expected when you consider the considerable revamp it had in 1.16.

That said, even with the millions of blocks minecraft provides horizontally, I have seen videos of people going distances from spawn in search of the 'farlands' where the terrain generation breaks down, in old versions of mc this was around 12 million blocks from spawn. In modern versions of mc there isn't anything like the old farlands, instead you get this 'striped land', which is only accessible by flying over it. But, it is my understanding that the game becomes unplayable well before such an area has been reached, blocks are no longer solid and you would fall straight through them and into the void. It is interesting for sure, but there is no real reason for anyone to go that far from spawn, especially in a single player game, where you can usually find a good couple of stacks of diamonds within a few hundred blocks from spawn if you go caving or strip mine at -58. Even if you're collecting every possible resource from the different biomes, it's highly unlikely you'd need to go further than 10 thousand blocks, which is well before the game starts to get buggy.

Even though the world size in minetest is obviously a fair bit smaller, it's still plenty to go on when you consider the vertical height, and there is no rule against building underground if you wanted to. So, even on a server with a fair few people, there should still be enough space.

I just joined Xanadu yesterday and found myself a decent plot of land, about a 10-15 minute walk from spawn, not that I need to actually walk there now I know about the teleportation commands. Love that server BTW, people have been really friendly and helpful. I helped my daughter to sign up too.

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Re: Infinite world size

by MisterE » Post

Helen Pixels wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 23:42
runs wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 14:38
Terraria is (or was) limited in extension. Minecraft is not infinite, past one point weird things happen, real floating point numbers go crazy. Anf the height is now only 256 nodes!
Minecraft has millions of blocks in every horizontal direction, but compared to this game is extremely limited vertically compared to this game, even when you take cliffs and caves into consideration. The Nether remained unchanged by the update, but that was to be expected when you consider the considerable revamp it had in 1.16.

That said, even with the millions of blocks minecraft provides horizontally, I have seen videos of people going distances from spawn in search of the 'farlands' where the terrain generation breaks down, in old versions of mc this was around 12 million blocks from spawn. In modern versions of mc there isn't anything like the old farlands, instead you get this 'striped land', which is only accessible by flying over it. But, it is my understanding that the game becomes unplayable well before such an area has been reached, blocks are no longer solid and you would fall straight through them and into the void. It is interesting for sure, but there is no real reason for anyone to go that far from spawn, especially in a single player game, where you can usually find a good couple of stacks of diamonds within a few hundred blocks from spawn if you go caving or strip mine at -58. Even if you're collecting every possible resource from the different biomes, it's highly unlikely you'd need to go further than 10 thousand blocks, which is well before the game starts to get buggy.

Even though the world size in minetest is obviously a fair bit smaller, it's still plenty to go on when you consider the vertical height, and there is no rule against building underground if you wanted to. So, even on a server with a fair few people, there should still be enough space.

I just joined Xanadu yesterday and found myself a decent plot of land, about a 10-15 minute walk from spawn, not that I need to actually walk there now I know about the teleportation commands. Love that server BTW, people have been really friendly and helpful. I helped my daughter to sign up too.
Just because you can find everything you need in a small area does not invalidate the point. The point is that minetest at first glance seems well suited to be an exploration game. But then you realize that the world is so small for an exploration. If you can traverse the world so quickly, then you must either make biomes tiny or only have a small number of biomes. If IRL biomes were fit into minetest, you could choose 1 or 2 biomes, thats it. So, if minetest were much larger horizontally, you could actually have an exploration game, where you had to survive a biome while traveling thru it, and traveling through it would be an accomplishment.

Minetest game doesnt need a larger world size, that is true. But the engine could use it, because other games would make use of the feature

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Re: Infinite world size

by ShadMOrdre » Post

I've always enjoyed "getting lost", only because my keen sense of direction, place, and observation skills largely prevent me from ever getting lost.

In the real world, I've frequently turned down unknown roads, just to see what's there. It's been a pastime of mine for more than 3 decades. Having created maps and studying those of others, I've often found it difficult to find something new.

When I learned how to make a descent mapgen in Minetest, I very quickly found 60km X 60km X 60km to be far too small. I can traverse and map out that space in the span of a single day, in the real world.

I agree that the engine could GREATLY benefit from allowing more. More space, more nodes (already done), more biomes (already done), more ores (I assume also done with the others), more "games", more ideas, more developers, more contributors, more coders, more musicians, more sound editors, more 3D modellers, more more more.

I've always compared MT against Opensim. For those who aren't familiar with Opensim, it is an FOSS implementation of the underlying technology that supports Second Life. Opensim allowed for direct importation of 3D models, animations, sounds, and textures into an virtual space. Unlike SL, OS allowed these imports without additional ingame charges.

An Opensim grid was simply a connect of various regions into a contiguous space. Each region was served by any number of hosts, and users could connect their own regions to a grid. Users could somewhat freely traverse the grid, which allowed for a far larger space. Regions could range in size from 256sqkm, to 8192sqkm. The number of regions in any direction essentially equated to the number of nodes in an MT world. So thousands of miles could be accommodated.

MT can and should be thought of in the same ways that Opensim grids work. If this singular addition could be made, it would really set MT apart. MT excels in performance and ease of modding, whereas Opensim excels in providing distributed but connected spaces.

The two ideas are mutually beneficial. Distributed MT worlds, connected through a central server, allowing MT worlds to connect to each other, thus offsetting the requirement that any server has to host an infinitely large space.

Just my dollars worth.

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Re: Infinite world size

by mycomments2017 » Post

A use case for larger worlds:

1. Imagine a person who has some sort of trauma (a past devastating loss of some sort)
1.1. Example of such trauma would be a person with complex-ptsd (e.g. http://reddit.com/r/cptsd)
2. Imagine that such a person would decide to create an 'minetest world' in a 'creative mode' and slowly day-by-day build there a long, long road that 'symbolizes' his 'trauma recovery' (just a long road in one direction with flowers & lamps & roadsigns on each side or whatever ... -- leave it to his imagination ...)), 'build a new single cube/block a-day' / 'plant a-stone a-day' and write some note on a post nearby - kind of thing ...
3. Obviously there are methods like journaling (as suggested frequently by psychologists),, aaand 'drawing therapy' ...
3.1. ^^ Those are great, but having an ability to have a personal 'trauma recovery' '3d world' -- would take those methods to a 'whole another level' (I'm speaking from personal experience).
3. Obviously in such case, having a 64km horizontal limitation would be a problem and could run out within two years or so (if you were building not one but 100 stones a day e.g. building 100 meters of a road a day) (whereas recovery from cptsd traumas could take a lot of years (see e.g. Patrick Stewart example: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments ... herapy_to/))
4. I'm by all means not rich dude at all .. but I have some crypto that I got from some airdrop in the past and would be willing to contribute around 100-200$ to the minetest project - if such feature would be approved into mt roadmap & implemented (as far as I understand, some hosting providers yes accept crypto as payment method so that could yes help cover minetest's hosting costs? (?)).
4.1. ^^ By paying I hope not to offend anyone (since this is an open source project and people don't do this for moneys...) -- it's just in my mind that such a feature could/would very well justify 100-200$ from my pocket, and personally whilst having done some sw dev work in the past, modifying minetest's source code to allow for larger world sizes (for e.g. personal use) would be overkill/overwhelm for me alone (would take a few years studying minetest's codebase probably ... (but that's personal everyone's skills & dev speed is different ...))
5. Again I'm personally very very glad to see that there are attempts within minetest's team to expand minetest's horizontal world size to hopefully a something close/closer to ~ 32 bit integer size (instead of the current ~ 64k blocks) thanks a lot I hope that such a feature will make it to some future minetest's release.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Kilarin » Post

mycomments2017 wrote: Obviously in such case, having a 64km horizontal limitation would be a problem and could run out within two years or so (if you were building not one but 100 stones a day e.g. building 100 meters of a road a day)
That is the most... shall we just say "unusual" argument for complaining about the 64k limit I've ever heard. My hat is off to you. :)

Imagine a person who has some sort of trauma, Imagine that such a person would decide to build a tower to represent their recovery. Every week they build another 8 block high section of the tower. (not unreasonable considering they have to spend time gathering supplies and they DO have things to do besides minetest.)
They can now build for almost 11 years before their tower reaches the top of the world.
And thank goodness it does. Because they had a reachable goal. If it was any bigger, they would feel like recovery was forever out of their reach...

Seriously though, I have no objection to making minetest larger, if that is possible, but again re-iterate my two positions:

1: We should better utilize the incredible richness of vertical space that Minetest provides
and
2: Almost all users, even most minetest servers, will never be able to fully utilize even the current horizontal space in minetest.

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:08
For history:
first working attempt to break 62000 limit was here:
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11843
I tested it and if i start the game in devtest or proxima_survival in load it corrupt with out a warning message back to main menu. Oh i sea now don't work with sqlite. Sorry

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:08
For history:
first working attempt to break 62000 limit was here:
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11843
You can teleport not over 2147483 but you can walk about and the map generate. I setted now max in proxima_suvival now to 310000 which is for now enough. But if you can walk further after 2147483 why not teleport?

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Re: Infinite world size

by proller » Post


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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 22:56
better to test this - https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11910
How do i clone another branch with git. If i do git checkout minetest32double and then git pull stand there:
Already up to date.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Blockhead » Post

debiankaios wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:50
How do i clone another branch with git. If i do git checkout minetest32double and then git pull stand there:
Already up to date.
Thank you Mario! But our branch is in another repository! (sorry.. silly reference)

Background info: Normally when you use git for your own project you might be used to just cloning your own repository and that's the only remote repository that you pull and push to. If you use git for someone else's project you might also be used to pushing 'fork' on GitHub or a similar website, then cloning your fork. But git lets you work with many different remote repositories from your local repository.

What you need to actually do:
You'll need to add proller's fork as a remote in order to fetch from it, then you can fetch and checkout the branches from that repository:

Code: Select all

git remote add proller https://github.com/proller/minetest
git fetch -a proller
git checkout minetest32double
When you do the git fetch you will also see all the other branches in proller's repository and can checkout those by their names. You can also see all the remotes you have added for a repository with git remote -v. You can add remotes for many different forks of the main Minetest repository.

*Final note: Technically branch names may not be unique across all repositories, but you can worry about that issue if you ever get to it.
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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

I cloned already https://github.com/proller/minetest but pulling still work not.

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