Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

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rubenwardy
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Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 08:05

I would like to have a(n intelligent) debate on the advantages and disadvantage of merging mesecons into minetest_game. Please supply your own arguments and counter any existing arguments.

I suggest Mesecons should be merged in a simpler state, with digilines, command blocks and lua chips (and other non-essential stuff) as separate mods.

Advantages

  • Mesecons would become one of the features of minetest_game. It would give more meaning to the "test" part of the name, along with other scientific mods.
  • Mesecons may get more development and bug fixes if added.

Disadvantages

  • Lag on server. (counter: server owners can just remove it. We shouldn't restrict features because of this, providing that server owners can just delete, rather than searching around default/init.lua or something. minetest_game should be aimed at singleplayer and LAN. Also, it only lags when used.)
  • Increased download. (counter: A simplified version of Mesecons is only 330KB. Minetest is currently 22MB. Remember that these are sometimes compressed when downloaded)
  • But they can just download it as a mod! (counter: It wouldn't be a feature of Minetest, it is just an additional mod. New players would quite immediately after seeing that there is no 'redstone' type things in the game.)
Last edited by rubenwardy on Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:45, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Zeno » Thu Oct 16, 2014 08:53

rubenwardy wrote: (counter: server owners can just remove it. We shouldn't restrict features because of this, providing that server owners can just delete, rather than searching around default/init.lua or something.


I disagree with that. Using git to keep up with things that others are doing and "just delete the stuff you don't want" isn't always a great way of doing things. It turns a simple git pull into several commands. I wish I had a better idea but I don't.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by TenPlus1 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 09:17

-1... Mesecons takes minutes to install and activate and is a per-user option so shouldn't be included in the default game...
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Topywo » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:35

@rubenwardy
Mesecons (and technic/pipeworks) are great mods that bring lots of fun for players to minetest. But also there are often bug(fixes)needed and they can be fairly complicated.

Maybe a (new?) simple mod (for the minetest_game) containing one type of powerline, one on/off switch and one powergenerator would be sufficient (to start with)?
Last edited by Topywo on Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by jp » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:38

I'm completely in disagreement with this idea.

According to my long-term observations, the main reason is that Mesecons is rarely used by common people, but always by a minority of players. And even among this minority, Mesecons is operated only quite briefly.

Aside that, it's rather heavy, complex (always potentially buggy and not easy to fix) and can be used for add some infinite loops that would effectively shutdown and slow down the servers.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Evergreen » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:47

I think it would only add to the 'test' aspect if it worked more like real electronics. Switches that provide their own power? Seriously? Also, even if it were more like real electronics, I think it would be too heavy for minetest_game. (unless some more efficient way of doing abm-like things is introduced)
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Zeno » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:56

jp wrote:Aside that, it's rather heavy, complex (always potentially buggy and not easy to fix) and can be used for add some infinite loops that would effectively shutdown and slow down the servers.


Hey, we agree! I like mesecons in singleplayer games, but on a server (where CPU usage is always pretty high even without mesecons) I can't say it's very attractive having it bundled with default.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by 4aiman » Thu Oct 16, 2014 14:48

- I'm agree with Topywo, a new simplified mod should do it. A new mod can even implement a signal power (if there's someone who wants it).

+ But I can't agree that trimmed mesecons are so fat:
In Magichet I have mesecons, alias, blinkyplant, button, compatibility, delayer, hydroturbine, lamp, lightstone, materaials, mvps, noteblock, pistons, pressureplates, random, receiver, solarpanel, switch, torch, wallever.
Plenty of mesecons, huh?
And all that stuff is of only 393,9 kBytes in size. Compress that now.

+ there should be some wiring. Because of Minecraft has it. It was a great problem for me to realize there won't be any when I came to MT. Later Mesecons appeared but were too buggy. Nowadays they're more or less stable. Not less stable than any other released mod, in fact.

~People are eager to ADD a lot of mods but for some reason can't deal with the necessity of DELETION of a SINGLE folder. My point: someone's troubles with his\her custom setup shouldn't be Minetest's problem. If someone doesn't like the defaults, he\she changes those. Does anyone really think that it is normal to complain, that MODDER's decision to alter the game MAKES him to ACTUALLY alter it while he\she was against it? %_%
Did they behave in the same manner when the "bones" mod had been added? E.g. asking to remove a new feature because they don't want to do it themselves.
MT just CAN'T satisfy everyone. That's why there's such a diversity of games :)

+MT is too dark at nights. Some artificial light controlled by switches can't be too bad.

Actually.. The power of a signal can help to reduce the maximum length of a wiring. Repeaters will require more resources. The more it costs to build one - the slower be the increase rate of the lag caused by set_node(). Without any repeaters there're won't be too much lag.

+ C'mon, MOBS are much more CPU-eating feature. Yet everyone blame mesecons. :(
And even my acer aspire one have no troubles with them. Do I need to list exact properties?
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 15:35

I agree that Mesecons is too bulky to be included in minetest_game.

4aiman's list of features is good. Most of the weight is from the note block, which plays music.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Esteban » Thu Oct 16, 2014 15:48

.
Last edited by Esteban on Fri Mar 18, 2016 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Zeno » Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:19

4aiman wrote:And all that stuff is of only 393,9 kBytes in size. Compress that now.


Size has nothing to do with it. It's the increase in CPU load that is important.

4aiman wrote:~People are eager to ADD a lot of mods but for some reason can't deal with the necessity of DELETION of a SINGLE folder.


It is much, much, much easier to add a mod than delete a directory when you're using git to keep up with updates.

4aiman wrote:And even my acer aspire one have no troubles with them. Do I need to list exact properties?


You run a server on your Acer Aspire One?
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Krock » Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:43

The default game should be simple and not add heavy mods.
And if the players want that mod, they can get it seperately.
Look, I programmed a bug for you. >> Mod Search Engine << - Mods by Krock - DuckDuckGo mod search bang: !mtmod <keyword here>
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:44

You could also use settings instead of deleting a folder.

Code: Select all
cd game/minetest_game
git stash save --keep-index
git pull origin master
git rm mods/mesecons/* -r
cd ../../
Last edited by rubenwardy on Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:46, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 17:44

Mesecons doesn't have to be a heavy mod. This same mentality to refusing features was used with farming.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Thu Oct 16, 2014 18:27

At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Krock » Thu Oct 16, 2014 18:32

Vazon wrote:I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2015 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).

Update your drivers. I'm able to play this on a PC with a worth less than $50..
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Thu Oct 16, 2014 18:35

Krock wrote:
Vazon wrote:I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2015 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).

Update your drivers. I'm able to play this on a PC with a worth less than $50..

My drivers are up to date. Minetest just is not the greatest atm.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Evergreen » Thu Oct 16, 2014 18:52

Vazon wrote:At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.
Eh, what kind of hardware was in this computer? I have a fairly decent ~450 USD computer that runs minetest wonderfully (60fps) with all the shaders turned on.
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 18:55

I am against merging Mesecons in its fall form. However, a simple version I would like.

I have changed my mind about this now, I think. The main reason for this is that it could be sold as feature of minetest. But we can still do this with: "Use Mesecons to create electrical circuits and contraptions"

Btw, Vazon:
Irrlicht is a 3D rendering engine.
Minetest is a game engine.
Minetest is a game.

Full game engines are usually quite bloated, and aimed for FPSes
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Thu Oct 16, 2014 19:06

Evergreen: it shouldn't matter, Minetest should be able to run on just about any newer computer with out having to make modifications or any extra cost. If people cant play with what they have, they are more likely just to say heck with this game and move on. Am I not correct?? Would you continue to play a game that you cant play efficiently with out buy or modifying you system???
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Thu Oct 16, 2014 19:09

rubenwardy: The point is that we are still using a rendering engine, I'm sure there is a better solution to this. Plus if Minetest is a game engine, it doesn't seem to run all that well on most computers with out people having to add stuff or change what they have.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Thu Oct 16, 2014 19:11

rubenwardy wrote:Knowing your hardware may allow us to see where the problem is.


There isn't a problem, I can run other games just fine like red eclipse. This what I'm trying to address, people should not have to change anything just to play a game.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Calinou » Thu Oct 16, 2014 19:28

Vazon wrote:At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.


There are currently known performance problems with 0.4.10 and Git versions of Minetest on Windows, which seem to happen on all builds, official and unofficial, 32 bits and 64 bits.

Irrlicht is a lightweight graphics engine – which is fine for games (which can be better than a big thing like OGRE). Using a dedicated gaming engine is not necessarily faster.

Minecraft isn't that slow these days (1.8, as far as I know, strongly improved rendering performance), it isn't uncommon to see people with more FPS in Minecraft than in Minetest. Lastly, you don't need a $ 2000 computer at all unless it is part of your work (eg. you're doing GPU computing).

On topic, I'm against merging Mesecons because most people don't use it. The upside, compared to inclusion of mobs, is that players on servers have the choice – if Mesecons is installed, you can choose not to use it, but you often can't choose to avoid mobs on servers.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by greydmiyu » Fri Oct 17, 2014 06:02

Vazon wrote:Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous.


Then the problem is with your computer. I know you've replied below stating it isn't, but it is. I can prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7THWkIhC8c

That is me with Minetest + Carbone + a few other mods I picked up. That's Minetest + DXTory recording on a machine I built back in June for ~$700. It's core components are an AMD FX-8320 and GTX760; hardly top of the line gear. If I can play and record Minetest on that machine then you should be able to just play it unless you have something wonky with your setup.

Heck, I fart around in Minetest + Carbone on my <$300 laptop which can't run Minecraft at above "slideshow" FPS.
It pulls an easy 30fps. That's on a Intel N2830 with integrated graphics.

I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.
 

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