Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

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Jordach
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Jordach » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:17

Vazon wrote:I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 )

Bought AlienWare or a prebuild by chance?

It's basically a Mac Pro with an Alien logo -- which means, underpowered everything and just looks shiny.

Next time, try building it yourself; and use this guide here for pricing and stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/w ... en_crusher
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19056 Solar Plains Dev Server
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Zeno » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:12

greydmiyu wrote:
Vazon wrote:I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.


A singleplayer game with an essentially empty world. Yes that will be fine.

Try running a server and you'll start to run into walls pretty quickly. The main bottleneck is the lighting (amongst other things including over-rendering)

And FWIW I often get below 20fps on:

model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core Processor PCI Express x16 Controller (rev 06)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GK104 [GeForce GTX 680] (rev a1)
RAM: 16GB

The above is kind of irrelevent though. What matters, really, is server specs. With 6 cores of a Xeon, 15-20 players, the CPU sits at 100% just about the entire time. Adding something like mesecons that will increase CPU load and be used by (probably) just a few players? No thanks. That is not hyperbole.
 

Sol
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Sol » Fri Oct 17, 2014 13:20

Zeno wrote:With 6 cores of a Xeon, 15-20 players, the CPU sits at 100% just about the entire time.

Excuse me, but how did you achieve that? Our server is running on a cheap VPS and it's CPU utilization rarely exceeds 25% independent of player count.
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by greydmiyu » Fri Oct 17, 2014 13:49

Zeno wrote:
greydmiyu wrote:
Vazon wrote:I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.



First off, please quote me properly, not misattributing my words to someone else.

A singleplayer game with an essentially empty world. Yes that will be fine.


Second, please don't change the context of the discussion then apply the new context to what I wrote as if that somehow refute what I said. I was addressing a very specific charge from Vazon, specifically (bolded emphasis mine)...

Vazon wrote:Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).


...that he cannot play stock Minetest on his new machine and that the problem lay with Minetest. Not that he cannot run Minetest with heavier games or loads of mods. Not that he cannot run a 15-20 person Minetest server. That he cannot play singleplayer, stock Minetest, and attributes it to him not having a uber-beefy PC.

My response addresses that and only that erroneous claim by pointing out my moderately specced machine can do it while recording (with a link to the video series for proof) and my severely underpowered laptop can do it, too.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Zeno » Fri Oct 17, 2014 14:22

@greydmiyu

Sorry for the mistake with quoting (it was an honest mistake).

The majority of rendering and lighting in Minetest (currently) is done by the CPU. The GPU is pretty much not utilised at all so I really don't find Vazon's problem particularly surprising. Add to that, hmmm, let's say just 100 mesecon things (in a singleplayer world) and I'm sure you'll experience issues as well.

The point *I* was trying to make is that this is a decision that not only affects singleplayer games but anyone who has a server. The minetest_game as it currently is is *not* fast at all even singleplayer. I am not changing the context of the discussion at all.

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Inocudom » Fri Oct 17, 2014 14:56

How well do the following two forks of Minetest work in terms of framerate in the eyes of you guys?
http://voxelands.com/-Has something like mesecons in it.
http://freeminer.org/-Experimental circuits mod included in its default sub-game. Use the latest development version in the forums of its website, not the outdated stable version on the home page.
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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Vazon » Fri Oct 17, 2014 15:48

Guys, we have turned to talking about our own problems and that was not my goal. I will make a new topic so we don't clutter this one.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by george » Fri Oct 17, 2014 16:04

Sol wrote:
Zeno wrote:With 6 cores of a Xeon, 15-20 players, the CPU sits at 100% just about the entire time.

Excuse me, but how did you achieve that? Our server is running on a cheap VPS and it's CPU utilization rarely exceeds 25% independent of player count.


Specifically, we have these two cores:
Code: Select all
# grep 'model name' /proc/cpuinfo
model name   : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2630L v2 @ 2.40GHz
model name   : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2630L v2 @ 2.40GHz


Server activity is graphed at http://grafana.ayntest.net/
Our db is almost 4GB right now (leveldb). Idk it could be because of that.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by jp » Fri Oct 17, 2014 16:11

Megaf's server is powered by a cheap ARM and runs Mesecons/Pipeworks fairly well. But its settings are at the forefront of optimization.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by CWz » Fri Oct 17, 2014 17:23

Mesecons is pretty bloated might be better to make a lightweight version
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by 4aiman » Fri Oct 17, 2014 23:20

+ Spoiler


5. It looks like people DO want shrunk version to be included. So, maybe we are to discuss the features to be implemented?
I believe there are enough people who are reading this and capable of implementing any features expected from a mesecons counterpart\shrunk ver.

Personally I expect a light version to have the following features:
- Wires that can be placed vertically on a side of a block. Redstone in MC can't do it in the vanilla game. Can't see why not to outsmart MC in this way.
- No need to use repeaters to connect adjacent blocks to a power line. Node should be automatically receive power signal if they're next to a wire.
- Because of the previous, wires should be able to transmit power only when there's no blocking. I'll try to explain.
right now mesecons can transmit signal from A to B like this:
Code: Select all
_ 1234
a NNNN
b NNBN
c NANN
d NNNN

As one can see, even though there's a block @ 2b, the signal passes from A to B. I'd rather have it to not pass in a setup like this. Then, to make a signal pass, one will be obliged to do this:
Code: Select all
_ 1234
a NNNN
b N BN
c NANN
d NNNN

Yep, there's air now, and nothing blocks the signal. This feature will help to isolate circuits while vertical placement will save us from making huge stairs to get the wire some nodes below the surface.
- Logic, based on mesetorches. No controllers or components for logic.
- Levels of signal. Will raise up the cost of wiring and slow down the increase of affected nodes. Also, which is faster: set_node() or meta:set_int()? Maybe we can trade off the visual effects? I mean, wires in our homes do not glow when we turn on the lights.
- Pistons & sticky pistons. Making mechanisms and huge doors with 'em is a good feature.
- Several sources of a signal: torches, levers (not wall-levers only), blinky plants (or another pulsing source), buttons (activate a circuit only for a couple of seconds), pressure plates (to detect players/mobs), repeaters (in MC those are combined with delayers) - to powerup existing signal and be a source of a signal only if there is a signal on input, Solar panel that outputs signal which power depends on the minetest.get_node_light() (to build automatic lighting systems and detect a nearby mob\player (useful for traps)). Turbines and the other stuff is not necessary - the above sources can be used instead.
- Wires should be compatible with rails. In fact, carts_boost + lightened mesecons is smth I'm looking forward to (acceleration rails, brake rails).
- Lamps are unnecessary, but at least 1 node that emits light while powered should exist.
- No aliases or compatibility stuff - new mesecons are to be a new feature and therefore there won't be any "leftovers" from the other nodes.

Well, I guess that's all I want of mesecons.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Topywo » Sat Oct 18, 2014 08:19

minetest2003 wrote:how to download it


Minetest:
http://minetest.net/download

or for recent window versions:
viewforum.php?f=42

or build it yourself (easier for Linux, see under readme.txt):
https://github.com/minetest/minetest


Mesecons:
viewtopic.php?id=628#p4785
Choose 1 of the downloads from GitHub (links) and extract the downloaded file in:
Minetest/mods (no need to rename it, since it is a modpack)
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by rubenwardy » Sat Oct 18, 2014 08:42

I agree with 4aiman. It doesn't have to be laggy.

Visual feedback of wires glowing is needed for gameplay.
 

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Re: Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

by Dragonop » Sat Oct 18, 2014 22:30

...Maybe something like a switch, a wire, a presure plate, a piston, and a power torch
 

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