Alternatives to sneak elevators

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Wuzzy
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Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Wuzzy » Fri Mar 03, 2017 04:13

Okay, people. It seems that Minetest will soon get rid of some of the oldest sneaking-relvated bugs which have plagued Minetest for years:

  • No fall damage while sneaking
  • Sneak elevators
  • Sneaking is weird on partial nodes (such as slabs)
  • And more, see here

While I personally think these are all important bugfixes I'm pretty sure many players will miss the sneak elevators.

I never liked sneak elevators because they were glitchy, not a real feature and besides also massively overpowered (you climb 3× faster than with a normal ladder, so this makes ladders mostly worthless)

I have a simple and lightweight idea for an alternative to sneak elevators:

Allowing the set a climbing speed factor on a per-node basis on climbable nodes.

That way, we could have standard ladders and turbo ladders with greatly increased climbing speed. :D Of course, turbo ladders would be a mod thing, but they would be a fun and simple alternative to sneak elevators.

For Minetest Game, steel ladders could have a slightly increased climbing speed (compared to wooden ladders) to make them a little bit more rewarding. :-)

Do you have other ideas to replace sneak elevators?
Last edited by Wuzzy on Fri Mar 03, 2017 05:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by GreenDimond » Fri Mar 03, 2017 04:43

D: No! Keep the sneak elevators! Oh this kills me!
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Linuxdirk » Fri Mar 03, 2017 05:08

Finally some actually gameplay-related bugfixes!

Making it possible to climb faster on steel ladders would be awesome (and it would make sense because steel is more rigid).
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by sorcerykid » Fri Mar 03, 2017 06:15

Personally, I'm somewhat opposed to removing the sneak elevator capability. By now it is a well-established feature of Minetest, even if an unintended one. It doesn't negatively impact the gameplay, and in some scenarios is almost deemed a necessity (for example chopping a jungle tree is substantially more difficult without the sneak elevator).

Also, the sneak elevator has a useful analogy with free-form climbing, albeit the speed factor could use some adjustment.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by ExeterDad » Fri Mar 03, 2017 06:50

Bug or not. I suggest a alternate for the now ruined sneak elevators, should be the addition of sneak elevators, as a feature. It is possible without reverting the other sneak fixes.
The sneak elevator is as important as our other Minetest icons. ie MESE or the Nyan Cat.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by firefox » Fri Mar 03, 2017 08:52

ExeterDad wrote:Bug or not. I suggest a alternate for the now ruined sneak elevators, should be the addition of sneak elevators, as a feature. It is possible without reverting the other sneak fixes.
The sneak elevator is as important as our other Minetest icons. ie MESE or the Nyan Cat.

agree

sneak climbing is very important.
i have build a "lantern stair" which is made of floating japanese paper lanterns, you get up by jumping from lantern to lantern and using sneak climbing is essential to do this without falling to your death when you slip or land only on the edge of the next lantern.

the sneak climb makes jumping across cliffs saver, since you can hold to the edge and don't fall.
if that is going to be removed completely, we need a replacement like climbing with your arms or something like that.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by afflatus » Fri Mar 03, 2017 08:52

I'd like to see a replacement which enables free-form climbing properly. I agree that the rate of ascent should not be so fast. Making steel ladders faster is also a good idea and could be immediately implemented.

I want to challenge the idea that sneak climbing is a 'cheat' - it does not confer an unfair advantage through deception and calling it a 'cheat' confers a degree of official status (next to tricks & tips) that it really should not have. An honest mechanism would be ideal.

Fixing the bugs, such as they are, brings up a whole load of other issues, like why do trees not fall down when you chop them? The only reason I can see is because Minecraft does it this way. Making trees properly fellable is trivial and doesn't require an engine change. It seems ridiculous to have a mechanic that leaves trees hanging in the air.

My concern is that the changes will make skybuilding and overhangs much more difficult.
I also liked the extra height you could gain from sneak jumping, oh well. Hopefully the changes will make sneaking fun again, except that I already found it fun and it has been a major part of my building style.

How will this affect parkour? Guess I need to test it.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by afflatus » Fri Mar 03, 2017 09:00

ExeterDad wrote:It is possible without reverting the other sneak fixes.


Sadly it isn't.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by afflatus » Fri Mar 03, 2017 09:02

... and the problem with climbable nodes is that you can't sneak-place off them. You have to build proper scaffolding.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Wuzzy » Fri Mar 03, 2017 13:42

The reason why these changes are done is because sneaking in Minetest is a horrible clusterfuck full of glitches and bugs. Especially fixing the broken fall damage is an important and much awaited bugfix.
Sneak elevators are not being removed deliberately, but this is a consequence to fix a whole bunch of much bigger bugs with sneak elevators:

sfan5 wrote:Sneak ladders rely on sneaking being so broken, in the process of fixing any of the other bugs the sneak ladder breaks, that's just how it is. I did not specifically want to remove it.


I think the best idea so far as an alternative to sneak elevators is adding them back, but not as a glitch but as a real and officially supported feature. Maybe it could work by implementing them in a way which does not use any of the sneaking code in order to avoid all the sneaking bugs (such as broken fall damage).
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Sergey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 15:17

Yes. At last, sneak elevators and other bugs will be removed!

In my opinion, bugs should be fixed but not dressed in suit.

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by XtremeHacker » Fri Mar 03, 2017 17:30

Problem is, while this started out as a bug, a core dev decided to, instead of fixing it, made it toggleable, moving it from "Cool bug", to "awesome feature".
If you say that
Code: Select all
function.name_of_thing_to_do
is impossible, then you didn't try hard enough. :P

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Sergey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 17:45

.
Last edited by Sergey on Sat Mar 04, 2017 17:45, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Linuxdirk » Fri Mar 03, 2017 20:58

XtremeHacker wrote:Problem is, while this started out as a bug, a core dev decided to, instead of fixing it, made it toggleable, moving it from "Cool bug", to "awesome feature".

This happens when devs don’t use the software they write.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by AndDT » Fri Mar 03, 2017 21:57

Nooooou! It's like straferunning in Doom, it's a feature!
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by sorcerykid » Fri Mar 03, 2017 22:02

Linuxdirk wrote:This happens when devs don’t use the software they write.


I chuckled :]
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by BBmine » Sat Mar 04, 2017 05:13

No! I don't want it removed! Now how will I get to the bottom of my TNT cave without dying?? /me cries SOOOO hard.

This is not a bug, it is an AWESOME feature. I'm going to github now to tell sfan5 that.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Sergey » Sat Mar 04, 2017 13:23

So many butts hurt now :-)

Make mod with that "feature" if you want.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Linuxdirk » Sat Mar 04, 2017 19:09

BBmine wrote:This is not a bug, it is an AWESOME feature. I'm going to github now to tell sfan5 that.

This is totally NOT a feature. It’s a functionality caused by a shit-ton of hacks involved for sneaking and I am so happy that those hacks are finally replaced by something more sane.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Sergey » Sat Mar 04, 2017 19:32

Linuxdirk wrote:Making it possible to climb faster on steel ladders would be awesome (and it would make sense because steel is more rigid).

I agree. Steel ladder is more expensive craft than wooden one.

For crafting wooden ladder all you need is 7 sticks. While one tree block is 16 sticks.
For crafting steel ladder you need 7 steel ingots. You have to go down in cave. Find iron ores in the right quantity. Mine them. Smelt in furnace. So beforehand you have to prepare fuel for it. What would it be? Cactus? Then you have to find them in desert. Trees? Fell some trees not only for building but also as fuel. Coal? Again, go to cave.

So making faster climbing and descending on steel ladder would be reasonable advantage for it. And on the other hand, could compensate that mentioned bug.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by the_raven_262 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 20:31

By diging every second node to climb up a mountain looked bad anyway.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by ExeterDad » Sat Mar 04, 2017 21:25

the_raven_262 wrote:By diging every second node to climb up a mountain looked bad anyway.

I do have to agree with this.
 

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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by XtremeHacker » Sat Mar 04, 2017 23:35

Ladders are used in the other game to move up quickly, moving up wooden ladders is so slow thaqt I can walk up an incline faster. :\
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Wuzzy » Tue Mar 07, 2017 13:24

Fixer-007 on GitHub posted some very creative alternatives (for Minetest Game) which are almost even more crazy than the sneak elevators.

Placing a boat in a water column (allegedly it is very fast):
Image

For those who don't know: Boat will float upwards when they are inside water, until they reach the surface.

Cart elevator (I have no idea how or why it works):
Image

Read more about these here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pu ... -284520257



Also, paramat is suggesting a change to Minetest to increase the default climb speed from 2 to 3 nodes per second.
The crafting recipe for Minetest Game ladders was just recently made cheaper in the dev version of Minetest Game: Now 7 sticks give you 5 ladders instead of 3.
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Re: Alternatives to sneak elevators

by Sergey » Tue Mar 07, 2017 14:18

Wuzzy wrote:Also, paramat is suggesting a change to Minetest to increase the default climb speed from 2 to 3 nodes per second.
The crafting recipe for Minetest Game ladders was just recently made cheaper in the dev version of Minetest Game: Now 7 sticks give you 5 ladders instead of 3.

Image
 

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