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Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 22:01
by Fixer
As you know, recently there was a controversy about fixes related to sneaking that fixed/mitigated significant damage evasion bugs that instantly changed game feel and made gameplay much more terrain dependant, this come with the cost of removing sneak ladders - not intentional "feature" used since ages in minetest like pictured here: https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/ass ... 4974c0.png
Some people are not good with that, discussion on github and list of bugs: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5327 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5443

I decided to do a vote about this, current situation is this, quoting sfan5:
SNEAK LADDERS RELY ON BUGS, IF YOU ADD SNEAK LADDERS YOU ADD BUGS

Re: Sneak elevators: What to do?

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 22:22
by paramat
Although not necessary for the poll, there are other options being investigated, such as replicating sneak-ladder and sneak-jump in the new sneak code (difficult but is being tried).
Also we could add a setting that switches between old code (with all the associated undesirable bugs) and new sneak code. This is crude and possibly a temporary thing to keep players happy while we work on the issues.

My preference doesn't occur in this poll (that's no problem and not a request for more options).

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 22:30
by benrob0329
Ny vote: I don't want sneak ladders or bugs.

I want a reliable sneak, that allows me to hop up on two node surfaces and keeps me from falling off the edge.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 14:23
by azekill_DIABLO
sneak ladders are (for me) an essential part of the gameplay. it should just be less op and, like benrob says, the important of sneaking is the two node jump and fall preventing function.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 19:43
by toby109tt
azekill_DIABLO wrote:sneak ladders are (for me) an essential part of the gameplay. it should just be less op and, like benrob says, the important of sneaking is the two node jump and fall preventing function.
"gameplay" XD

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 19:45
by toby109tt
Why does everyone want this so desperately it's a glitch it's fixed now why does everyone want it back?

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 01:38
by MineYoshi
toby109tt wrote:Why does everyone want this so desperately it's a glitch it's fixed now why does everyone want it back?
It's something that the community loves and has been living with this whole time.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:59
by Wuzzy
I'm surprised that 3 people actually want damage evasion and even noclip bugs caused by sneaking.

Sorry, but this just makes fall damage almost entirely meaningless, since it is so easy to avoid it. It does not even involve much skill, since sometimes you can even avoid fall damage on a perfectly flat surface. The damage evasion bug is so random. What's the point of fall damage if it can so easily avoided?
IMO it would make more sense to just be able to disable fall damage on a per-player basis.

And the noclip bug is absolutely indefensible IMO, especially in multiplayer. It is a way to circumvent protection by noclipping through the floor.

I also do not shed a single tear about the los of sneak elevators / sneak ladders. I hated this with a deep passion. I wouldn't mind if it would be added back later as an option, but I probably would not use it.

But I agree with sfan5 100% on this one: As long sneak elevators depend on bugs, they should not be added. Keep in mind that sfan5 fixed a bunch of very important longstanding bugs.

Another bug fixed by sfan5 was that sneaking didn't work properly on partial nodes like slabs. Very important fix.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 13:02
by Linuxdirk
Wuzzy wrote:I also do not shed a single tear about the los of sneak elevators / sneak ladders. I hated this with a deep passion. I wouldn't mind if it would be added back later as an option, but I probably would not use it.

But I agree with sfan5 100% on this one: As long sneak elevators depend on bugs, they should not be added.
Quoted for emphasis.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 14:18
by Krock
A counter-proposal from my side:
I believe the most of the disagreement of sneak elevators is the unreasonable high speed.
What if they were still possible, but with a slower climbing speed?


What I can offer in this new pull request:
  • Similar fast two-row sneak ladders
  • No weird behaviour when walking on stairs
  • Possibility to sneak to the very outer edges of a stair
  • No "movement lock" when walking around the corners of sneak ladders
  • broken one-row sneak ladders
Update 170502: Various improvements were moved into a seperate pull: #5675
  • No damage evading on sneak ladders
  • No jitter when walking against the sneak limit
  • Removing variable "got_teleported" that's not really used for anything
According to sfan5 this pull continues supporting bugs. What's your opinion on it?

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 19:57
by MineYoshi
Krock wrote:A counter-proposal from my side:
I believe the most of the disagreement of sneak elevators is the unreasonable high speed.
What if they were still possible, but with a slower climbing speed?


What I can offer in this new pull request:
  • Slower two-row sneak ladders (if they're enabled)
  • No damage evading on sneak ladders
  • No weird behaviour when walking on stairs
  • Possibility to sneak to the very outer edges of a stair
  • broken one-row sneak ladders
According to sfan5 this pull continues supporting bugs. What's your opinion on it?
Looks good...
So, this is an alternative to the actual sneak glitch, but with less bugs... Maybe it needs to be a bit polish, no more.
+1

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 05:52
by paramat
Here are 2 PRs by me:

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5519 "Sneak: Add option for old move code"
Temporary option for classic sneak behaviour.
Enabled by setting the added 'new move' physics override to false.
By default 'new move' is true.
A temporary setting to enable unchanged old move code while we continue to improve the new move code.

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5527 "Sneak glitch: Detect ledge for 2-node climb-up"
Re-creates the old sneak-jump behaviour in new code.
Enabled by the 'sneak glitch' physics override.
When a ledge is detected the jump speed modifier is set to the larger
of 'physics override jump' and 1.3 to allow a 2-node climb-up.
An unexpected side-effect is the simple sneak ladder working smoothly.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 08:33
by iisu
I'm for an option to switch between the original glitch with all side-effects, Krock's solution and no sneak ladders at all.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 22:07
by Krock
Quick demonstration of the different versions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coTcDzEfku4
Contains: Old 0.4.15-stable, new 0.4.15-dev and the sneak code from PR 5533

I may have forgot some points there but this video should at least help those who don't want the effort of patching their Minetest build.

EDIT: Update about the sneak ladder speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hR74Z5vUyo

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:27
by Fixer
Since today this option is available
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pu ... -294439036

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 00:27
by BBmine
As I've said before, sneak ladders being removed will destroy a LOT of builds. Some people (including me) rely on sneak ladders for mines that go -1000 blocks or deeper. Nobody wants to spend HOURS going block by block placing ladders.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:51
by azekill_DIABLO
i use / home and gravity personnaly.

Re: Sneak ladders: What to do?

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 13:50
by Casimir
Krock wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coTcDzEfku4
Contains: [...] sneak code from PR 5533
I want this one please.

Maybe the problem is that there is no dedicated climbing feature. People want to be able to climb onto high edges, around corners and on trees, yet it was never implemented as a feature. Sneak is used for those things because of bugs, but wouldn't it be cool to have a mode that actually behaves like climbing?