Maybe mg Mountains?

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voxelproof
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Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

What do you think about the idea of developing mg valleys into something more ambitious? When experimenting with its settings in map_meta.txt I got an impression that the map generator is somehow "compressed" and with simple tuning it becomes one of the most impressive terrain generators I've ever met in open world games.

Maybe this could be included in future releases of Minetest. I think it really deserves it.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by TumeniNodes » Post

Of course, you could be nice and post your (code-settings for that output in the screenshot too 8D
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by paramat » Post

Valleys mapgen is quite compressed horizontally, and the river systems are too small scale for me, personally i think it needs tuning, but that's up to the creator of it (Gael de Sailly). At least you can alter it through noise parameters.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

paramat wrote:Valleys mapgen is quite compressed horizontally, and the river systems are too small scale for me, personally i think it needs tuning, but that's up to the creator of it (Gael de Sailly). At least you can alter it through noise parameters.
Well, I have hardly any idea what "noise parameters" are (they're to be found in map_meta.txt I suppose). The modification I've made is a great example of the "blind watchmaker" genius :-)

(Btw I really appreciate your (and of course others) work here and I really, sincerely hope you'll find the way out of your financial woes. Believe me, I'd be happy to make more than just a symbolic donation, but I am a seasonal worker, so now I must count every penny too :| But tell me, how could I contribute from Poland? I haven't used PayPal or any other transfering tools yet. Is there an easy way to send a small amount of money to you?)
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

TumeniNodes wrote:Of course, you could be nice and post your (code-settings for that output in the screenshot too 8D
Yes, sure... This is the full map_meta.txt of the above world:

Code: Select all

mgvalleys_np_terrain_height = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = -10
	scale = 250
	spread = (512,1024,1024)
	seed = 5202
	octaves = 6
	persistence = 0.4
}
mgvalleys_np_inter_valley_slope = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0.5
	scale = 0.5
	spread = (128,128,128)
	seed = 746
	octaves = 1
	persistence = 1
}
mgvalleys_np_inter_valley_fill = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1
	spread = (256,512,256)
	seed = 1993
	octaves = 6
	persistence = 0.8
}
mgvalleys_np_filler_depth = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1.2
	spread = (256,256,256)
	seed = 1605
	octaves = 3
	persistence = 0.5
}
mgvalleys_np_massive_caves = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1
	spread = (768,256,768)
	seed = 59033
	octaves = 6
	persistence = 0.63
}
mgvalleys_np_cave2 = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 12
	spread = (67,67,67)
	seed = 10325
	octaves = 3
	persistence = 0.5
}
mgvalleys_np_cave1 = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 12
	spread = (61,61,61)
	seed = 52534
	octaves = 3
	persistence = 0.5
}
mgvalleys_cave_width = 0.09
mgvalleys_river_size = 4
mg_flags = caves, dungeons, light, decorations
chunksize = 5
mgvalleys_lava_features = 0
mg_name = valleys
mapgen_limit = 31000
water_level = 1
seed = 16142518679781333103
mgvalleys_np_rivers = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1
	spread = (256,256,256)
	seed = -6050
	octaves = 5
	persistence = 0.6
}
mg_biome_np_heat = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 50
	scale = 50
	spread = (1000,1000,1000)
	seed = 5349
	octaves = 3
	persistence = 0.5
}
mgvalleys_water_features = 0
mg_biome_np_heat_blend = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1.5
	spread = (8,8,8)
	seed = 13
	octaves = 2
	persistence = 1
}
mg_biome_np_humidity = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 50
	scale = 50
	spread = (1000,1000,1000)
	seed = 842
	octaves = 3
	persistence = 0.5
}
mg_biome_np_humidity_blend = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0
	scale = 1.5
	spread = (8,8,8)
	seed = 90003
	octaves = 2
	persistence = 1
}
mgvalleys_spflags = altitude_chill, humid_rivers
mgvalleys_np_valley_depth = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 5
	scale = 4
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = -1914
	octaves = 1
	persistence = 1
}
mgvalleys_altitude_chill = 90
mgvalleys_np_valley_profile = {
	flags = defaults
	lacunarity = 2
	offset = 0.6
	scale = 0.5
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = 777
	octaves = 1
	persistence = 1
}
mgvalleys_large_cave_depth = -33
mgvalleys_massive_cave_depth = -256
mgvalleys_river_depth = 5
[end_of_params]
As far as I remember I was playing around with mgvalleys_np_terrain_height changing scale and spread and also with mgvalleys_np_rivers to force them to obey the law of gravity (not as successfully as I'd wish it to be).

And here are some extra shots from the Valley of the Shadow. Surrounding mountains reach altitude of 370 nodes and throughout the world huge massifs higher than 400 are not uncommon.

Image
Valley of the Shadow

Image
Memory Pass

Image
Hopper Peak

And one more important thing... Beware the Mountain King who roams across these heights ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZVebSr-MFM
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

voxelproof wrote:
paramat wrote:Valleys mapgen is quite compressed horizontally, and the river systems are too small scale for me, personally i think it needs tuning, but that's up to the creator of it (Gael de Sailly). At least you can alter it through noise parameters.
Well, I have hardly any idea what "noise parameters" are (they're to be found in map_meta.txt I suppose). The modification I've made is a great example of the "blind watchmaker" genius :-)
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by Gael de Sailly » Post

paramat wrote:Valleys mapgen is quite compressed horizontally, and the river systems are too small scale for me, personally i think it needs tuning, but that's up to the creator of it (Gael de Sailly). At least you can alter it through noise parameters.
It does need tuning, but I'd prefer to make a list of good mg settings we found, and let the final users choose in this list, with descriptive names, so that they can tune the mapgen way more easily. For now, given the way settings are made, it's only accessible to people that know very well valleys mapgen. Even myself I still have things I don't remember well what they do. That was 3 years ago, you know.
The detailed noise parameters should be tweakable too individually but as advanced settings. The current setting system don't allow things to be presented this way, but I'm sure one day the rigid key=value list in Settings tab will be improved (well… I'm quite ashamed of having to say that, since I'm the one that proposed this system some years ago).

It's not necessarily up to me to tweak this, voxelproof, like anyone else can contribute too. I think he is on the right way, even if some more things must be tuned until it's defined as default.
I hope I'll find the time to work on this on the next weekend. This will take me time to dive back into this.
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

Gael de Sailly wrote: It does need tuning, but I'd prefer to make a list of good mg settings we found, and let the final users choose in this list, with descriptive names, so that they can tune the mapgen way more easily.
I think that this mapgen has a potential to branch into a few separate and very impressive mapgens generating very realistic terrain.
For now, given the way settings are made, it's only accessible to people that know very well valleys mapgen. Even myself I still have things I don't remember well what they do. That was 3 years ago, you know.
The detailed noise parameters should be tweakable too individually but as advanced settings. The current setting system don't allow things to be presented this way, but I'm sure one day the rigid key=value list in Settings tab will be improved (well… I'm quite ashamed of having to say that, since I'm the one that proposed this system some years ago).
Yes, its settings have some weird properties, like when you see that the rivers settings affect heavily the height and shape of the mountains :)
I hope I'll find the time to work on this on the next weekend. This will take me time to dive back into this.
Great thanks, Gael.

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Sun Valley

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Sun Valley 2
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by Gael de Sailly » Post

I've tried tweaking the parameters and came to pretty good results too:

Image

Code: Select all

mgvalleys_np_rivers = {
	lacunarity = 2
	persistence = 0.5
	octaves = 6
	offset = 0
	scale = 1
	flags = eased
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = -6050
}
mgvalleys_np_valley_profile = {
	lacunarity = 2
	persistence = 1
	octaves = 1
	offset = 0.3
	scale = 0.3
	flags = 
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = 777
}
mgvalleys_np_valley_depth = {
	lacunarity = 2
	persistence = 1
	octaves = 1
	offset = 7
	scale = 6
	flags = 
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = -1914
}
mgvalleys_altitude_chill = 110
mgvalleys_np_inter_valley_fill = {
	lacunarity = 2
	persistence = 0.7
	octaves = 7
	offset = 0
	scale = 1
	flags = 
	spread = (512,512,512)
	seed = 1993
}
Rivers are wider and rarer, terrain is higher (mountains above 250 are not rare), and chaotic zones on mountains are more developed.
------

What I propose for mapgen settings system:
- Mapgen settings are asked on world creation, along with mg name and seed, instead of Settings tab.
- Instead of a bunch of complicated params, the player chooses within a small list (3-8 items) of parameter presets with descriptive names.
- They can also choose "Custom parameters" and tweak the advanced parameters, and save them as a new preset.
- Presets are saved in files that we could share on the forum
- minetest.conf params are automatically changed by this action, like mg_name currently. They will be the default for the next world.

------
voxelproof wrote:I think that this mapgen has a potential to branch into a few separate and very impressive mapgens generating very realistic terrain.
There is no need to duplicate the mapgen code for changing parameters. However I think there is still some work to do on the C++ code of valleys mapgen.
What I see as the biggest weakness of Valleys Mapgen, aesthetically speaking, is that the terrain shape is very smoothed around rivers, making impossible to create good-looking canyons like in v7 (yeah I love canyons :D)
Now I think it could be feasible by modelling rivers with a 3D noise instead of 2D. That would be a major rewrite of valleys mapgen. Is that still the time to do this?
Just realize how bored we would be if the world was perfect.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

Gael de Sailly wrote: What I see as the biggest weakness of Valleys Mapgen, aesthetically speaking, is that the terrain shape is very smoothed around rivers, making impossible to create good-looking canyons like in v7 (yeah I love canyons :D)
This has not always to be true, as show these pictures (the settings are the same I've described in this thread):

Image

Image

Image

They depict the same mountain stream. With some noise added to the slopes (to make them not so smooth, which, as you rightly say, renders them too artificially looking) the result would be more than agreeable I suppose. And, as a matter of fact, the canyon walls in v7 are also not very realistic (even taking into account the cuboid grid), they're mostly simply vertical and smooth. But the sediments at the bottom of the canyon walls are in fact good looking in v7.
Now I think it could be feasible by modelling rivers with a 3D noise instead of 2D. That would be a major rewrite of valleys mapgen.
And what do you think about the idea of rivers spawning like trees? No, I'm not joking. The procedure would look like that: there're no rivers visible until the mapgen generates the water source, which is a cellular automaton that acts like a trailblazer for the river ravine generated in a standard way. The same could be applied to generate screes and couloirs whose lacks the present version of mg valleys, as well as to create some vestiges of erosion (I don't mean sloped blocks, but the general geomorphology modelled by the cubes).

I'm thinking also about adding some boulders (clusters of rock nodes of a roughly rounded shape, which are now floating without serious occupation in v5"African" modification I wrote about in screenshots thread) that would also spawn like ordinary trees. It would add a lot of natural charm to the ladscape I believe.

These are some general ideas, I'm not a modder so the mg valleys is (at least until I have some time to dive into lua scripting handbook ;)) your realm :)
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by paramat » Post

> I'd prefer to make a list of good mg settings we found, and let the final users choose in this list, with descriptive names, so that they can tune the mapgen way more easily.

That was actually an intention of our previous mapgen dev, not sure if he meant to add that to the engine or not, however it can be done by mod.

> The detailed noise parameters should be tweakable too individually but as advanced settings.

They have been for a long time. Recently improved though, now you can set the noise flags too in advanced settings.

> It does need tuning, but I'd prefer ...

I think it's best the default noise parameters are well tuned because the vast majority of players will never use alternative parameters. Changing the defaults is harmless.
Ideally i'd like the mapgen creator to be the one who tunes it, no pressure but if you are inspired that would be good.

> What I propose for mapgen settings system:
Mapgen settings are asked on world creation, along with mg name and seed, instead of Settings tab.

This has been proposed before in a PR, it's okay for global mapgen settings (caves, dungeons, light, decorations) but not for the many mapgen-specific parameters due to the amount of formspec work it creates.

> That would be a major rewrite of valleys mapgen. Is that still the time to do this?

Mapgen valleys is very popular as it is, so this will be unpopular, if done it should be an option.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

voxelproof wrote:The same could be applied to generate screes and couloirs whose lacks the present version of mg valleys
It seems that nevertheless some features of this kind are implemented in the valleys mapgen. Here are two glacier couloirs I've found:

Image

Image

Good job, Gael de Sailly!
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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by Robsoie » Post

Maybe for each mapgen there should be a "presets" option, so every mapgen could come with various preset settings to obtain very different results ?

This way users attached to default of a specific mapgen would still be able to use them, but people without the "know how" of the mapgen numerous settings could still be able to enjoy amazing variations some of you are capable of obtaining (like those shown in this thread), this by just changing the preset to the one of their liking without having to edit any value in their minetest.conf or mod own mapgen lua files.

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Re: Maybe mg Mountains?

by voxelproof » Post

Robsoie wrote:Maybe for each mapgen there should be a "presets" option, so every mapgen could come with various preset settings to obtain very different results ?

This way users attached to default of a specific mapgen would still be able to use them, but people without the "know how" of the mapgen numerous settings could still be able to enjoy amazing variations some of you are capable of obtaining (like those shown in this thread), this by just changing the preset to the one of their liking without having to edit any value in their minetest.conf or mod own mapgen lua files.
I think it's a good and quite obvious idea, Gael de Sailly was writing about tweakable parameters too. It's probably not easy to squeeze all the settings from map_meta into easy to handle form, but I believe in Gael :)
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