Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

cy
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Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by cy » Thu Dec 27, 2018 03:44

Thanks for your great work on the 7th version of mapgen. A few issues I've been having, it seems to generate these vagely convex vertical cracks, which I'd like to disable in favor of canyons or caves. Is that possible? To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something? I'd also like to disable rivers, because they're an awesome idea, but the requirement that they are always at sea level spiderwebs the world with impassable cliffs. And speaking of cliffs, is there some way to tweak mapgen settings so that there are broad, flat areas, then a transition of gently rolling hills, and then towering mountains? The lack of flat space makes building hard, and reduces appeal, since those epic mountains look better when seen from across a wide plains. Plus constant, tedious death cliffs while exploring isn't my ideal experience.

Is it a work in progress, or does everyone just not choose to have the sort of map I'm looking for? Attached is what I'm trying to achieve.
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Gael de Sailly
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by Gael de Sailly » Thu Dec 27, 2018 13:47

cy wrote:A few issues I've been having, it seems to generate these vagely convex vertical cracks, which I'd like to disable in favor of canyons or caves. Is that possible? To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something? I'd also like to disable rivers, because they're an awesome idea, but the requirement that they are always at sea level spiderwebs the world with impassable cliffs. And speaking of cliffs, is there some way to tweak mapgen settings so that there are broad, flat areas, then a transition of gently rolling hills, and then towering mountains? The lack of flat space makes building hard, and reduces appeal, since those epic mountains look better when seen from across a wide plains. Plus constant, tedious death cliffs while exploring isn't my ideal experience.


Your remarks are very interesting.
I think most of your "problems" could be solved just by changing mapgen parameters.
To disable rivers, you need to remove the ridges flag in mapgen V7 specific flags (go in advanced settings)

It must be possible to widen rivers and make the terrain look the way you want, but mapgen parameters are not easy to handle. I'll post here again if I find something interesting.
Same for caves, I'll look into the parameters.

You can also try the Valleys Mapgen that features rivers with slope and mountains with less sharp cliffs.
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by paramat » Fri Dec 28, 2018 00:47

> it seems to generate these vagely convex vertical cracks, which I'd like to disable in favor of canyons or caves. Is that possible? To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something?

I don't know what you're referring to here, can you upload a screenshot?

To disable rivers, add this line in minetest.conf: 'mgv7_spflags = mountains,noridges,nofloatlands,caverns'
Or disable 'ridges' in advanced settings menu: settings tab > advanced settings > mapgen > mapgen v7 > mapgen v7 specific flags. Tick 'noridges' and untick 'ridges'.
Do this before starting a new world, it won't have effect in existing worlds.

> And speaking of cliffs, is there some way to tweak mapgen settings so that there are broad, flat areas, then a transition of gently rolling hills, and then towering mountains?

No. I looked at your 'contour' image. In mgv7 it's possible to have just flat areas, mountains and ocean floor, but that's not very interesting.

The request for flat areas is being heard, i'm making sure to code those into my WIP core mapgen, and Carpathian Mapgen (MT 5.0.0 only) has flat areas.

Mapgen V7 isn't WIP, it's officially stable. But certainly it lacks in several ways. The idea is to move on and create new, better mapgens.
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by paramat » Sat Dec 29, 2018 04:14

I wrote:
> In mgv7 it's possible to have just flat areas, mountains and ocean floor, but that's not very interesting.

Actually it is possible to have seabed, flat areas, hills and mountains in mgv7, i'll post some mapgen settings here later. However it seems unlikely that the hills can be distributed to be a transition to mountsins.
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by ShadMOrdre » Sat Dec 29, 2018 06:10

Paramat,

The convex caves are found using the default settings for mgv7. All the caves that crack the surface are essentially long, convex cracks, and they are pervasive. I'll try to post a screenshot for you.

Cy,

I've also disliked these features of mgv7. The first code section shows which parameters to change in map_meta.txt to disable rivers, caves, ridges, and those horribly 3D carved mountains; and to give you long, gently sloping terrain with flat areas, hilly areas, and mountains that I've seen up to 600 meters.

The second code section is a complete map_meta.txt file. Using the seed that is referenced in this file will give you a 500 meter tall mountain at coords -1500, 500, 1500. If you also use my lib_materials and lib_ecology mods, I think you'll find some rather natural looking environs.

Code: Select all
mgv7_np_terrain_alt = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 4
   scale = 100
   spread = (1536,1536,1536)
   seed = 5934
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.8
}
mgv7_np_height_select = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = -0.25
   scale = 1
   spread = (500,500,500)
   seed = 4213
   octaves = 4
   persistence = 0.4
}
mgv7_np_terrain_base = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 4
   scale = 400
   spread = (1536,1536,1536)
   seed = 82341
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.4
}
mgv7_spflags = nomountains, noridges, nofloatlands, nocaverns


map_meta.txt -- Put this file into the folder that is created for a new world.

Code: Select all
mgv7_np_cave2 = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 12
   spread = (67,67,67)
   seed = 10325
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.5
}
mgv7_np_cave1 = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 12
   spread = (61,61,61)
   seed = 52534
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.5
}
mgv7_np_cavern = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1
   spread = (384,128,384)
   seed = 723
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.63
}
mgv7_np_floatland_base = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = -0.6
   scale = 1.5
   spread = (600,600,600)
   seed = 114
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.6
}
mgv7_np_ridge_uwater = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1
   spread = (1000,1000,1000)
   seed = 85039
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.6
}
mgv7_np_filler_depth = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1.2
   spread = (150,150,150)
   seed = 261
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.7
}
mgv7_np_terrain_alt = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 4
   scale = 100
   spread = (1536,1536,1536)
   seed = 5934
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.8
}
mgv7_cavern_taper = 256
mgv7_cavern_limit = -256
mgv7_np_mountain = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = -0.6
   scale = 1
   spread = (250,350,250)
   seed = 5333
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.63
}
mgv7_np_height_select = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = -0.25
   scale = 1
   spread = (500,500,500)
   seed = 4213
   octaves = 4
   persistence = 0.4
}
mg_flags = nocaves, nodungeons, light, decorations
chunksize = 5
mg_name = v7
mapgen_limit = 31000
water_level = 1
seed = 16096304901732432682
mgv7_np_float_base_height = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 48
   scale = 24
   spread = (300,300,300)
   seed = 907
   octaves = 4
   persistence = 0.7
}
mgv7_np_terrain_base = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 4
   scale = 400
   spread = (1536,1536,1536)
   seed = 82341
   octaves = 5
   persistence = 0.4
}
mgv7_spflags = nomountains, noridges, nofloatlands, nocaverns
mgv7_np_mount_height = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 256
   scale = 112
   spread = (1000,1000,1000)
   seed = 72449
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.6
}
mg_biome_np_heat = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 50
   scale = 50
   spread = (1000,1000,1000)
   seed = 5349
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.5
}
mgv7_float_mount_height = 128
mgv7_cavern_threshold = 0.7
mg_biome_np_humidity = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 50
   scale = 50
   spread = (1000,1000,1000)
   seed = 842
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.5
}
mgv7_np_ridge = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1
   spread = (100,100,100)
   seed = 6467
   octaves = 4
   persistence = 0.75
}
mgv7_shadow_limit = 1024
mg_biome_np_humidity_blend = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1.5
   spread = (8,8,8)
   seed = 90003
   octaves = 2
   persistence = 1
}
mgv7_cave_width = 0.09
mgv7_float_mount_density = 0.6
mgv7_np_terrain_persist = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0.6
   scale = 0.1
   spread = (2000,2000,2000)
   seed = 539
   octaves = 3
   persistence = 0.6
}
mg_biome_np_heat_blend = {
   flags = defaults
   lacunarity = 2
   offset = 0
   scale = 1.5
   spread = (8,8,8)
   seed = 13
   octaves = 2
   persistence = 1
}
mgv7_floatland_level = 1280
[end_of_params]
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by voxelproof » Sat Dec 29, 2018 16:24

cy wrote:To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something? I'd also like to disable rivers, because they're an awesome idea, but the requirement that they are always at sea level spiderwebs the world with impassable cliffs. And speaking of cliffs, is there some way to tweak mapgen settings so that there are broad, flat areas, then a transition of gently rolling hills, and then towering mountains?


Try this. It's tweaking of Gael's Valleys (which I'm still admiring for its mountains). Although generally boring, it's at the same time interesting for its very natural canyons, valleys, ravines, huge flat deserts and so on. You may tweak it further to adjust it to your expectations.
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by Gael de Sailly » Sat Dec 29, 2018 18:49

When I see this discussion, I really hope we will have a mapgen presets feature working one day.
I tried to code this some time ago, but still have issues (especially I don't know how to detect the setting types in a Setting object).
If anyone is interested, the code (not working for now) is here: https://github.com/Gael-de-Sailly/minetest/tree/mapgen_presets_simple.
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by ShadMOrdre » Sat Dec 29, 2018 19:57

Gael,

I've been thinking along this line as well, ie, mapgen presets. However, me not being a strong C coder, I've been considering Lua options, instead.

My thinking has been along the lines of presenting the user a set of options to choose the type of map they want, without presenting them options as to the actual mapgen. Since it is possible to choose the mapgen, and alter the settings for said mapgen in a mod, I've considered this a preferred method. The mod would not expose the mapgen itself, just provide settings for selecting "known" mapgen configurations. In this way, a user could select Mountains with rivers, and the mod would choose Valleys mg, or if the user selected large flat islands, the mod could select mg7 with known params that flatten that mapgen.

Does this sound similar to what you were thinking?
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by Gael de Sailly » Sat Dec 29, 2018 23:26

ShadMOrdre wrote:I've been thinking along this line as well, ie, mapgen presets. However, me not being a strong C coder, I've been considering Lua options, instead.

You don't need C, all the mainmenu is Lua (in builtin/). However, this is not the easiest part.

ShadMOrdre wrote:My thinking has been along the lines of presenting the user a set of options to choose the type of map they want, without presenting them options as to the actual mapgen. Since it is possible to choose the mapgen, and alter the settings for said mapgen in a mod, I've considered this a preferred method. The mod would not expose the mapgen itself, just provide settings for selecting "known" mapgen configurations. In this way, a user could select Mountains with rivers, and the mod would choose Valleys mg, or if the user selected large flat islands, the mod could select mg7 with known params that flatten that mapgen.

Does this sound similar to what you were thinking?

Yes I think it's more or less the same, I'd like an interface (on world creation) where the user can choose within a limited set of good mapgen configs, with a name and a description telling what it features.
I think it's the best way to make mapgen configuration more accessible to Minetest users, most of them just can't bother with huge and complicated sets of noise params.
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by runs » Fri Jan 04, 2019 18:13

I vote for an easy way to configure mapgen. I love v7, but I would like rivers of river water (I love its pale blue color)
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by Gael de Sailly » Fri Jan 04, 2019 18:52

runs wrote:I vote for an easy way to configure mapgen. I love v7, but I would like rivers of river water (I love its pale blue color)

River water in V7 is not a feature yet, I think this could easily be added but since rivers are at the sea level, won't really make sense (will create a weird discontinuity between sea and river; also river water was made for slopes).
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by paramat » Sun Jan 06, 2019 01:54

ShadMOrdre wrote:The convex caves are found using the default settings for mgv7. All the caves that crack the surface are essentially long, convex cracks

The tunnels are not convex, they are convex and concave, if one side is convex the other will inevitably be concave. They are also not only vertical, so the first post is not clear what this refers to.

River water is only used in sloping rivers, and sloping rivers are complex to integrate into a mapgen, the whole magen needs to be coded around the method of creating rivers.
So mgv7 and mgcarpathian can't have sloping rivers.

I intend to continue work on my new core mapgen, it seems to have many desired features: Large flat areas, sloping rivers, no crazy mgv7 type mountains.
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by cy » Sun Jan 06, 2019 05:09

Gael de Sailly wrote:I think most of your "problems" could be solved just by changing mapgen parameters.
To disable rivers, you need to remove the ridges flag in mapgen V7 specific flags (go in advanced settings)
I felt pretty sheepish when I realized that was just literally a flag you could turn off. Yeah I'm sure there's some change to mapgen parameters that fixes it, but meddling on my own is at best likely to end up with a world full of hills with no mountains higher than 20 or something.

It must be possible to widen rivers and make the terrain look the way you want,
Perhaps not widen rivers, since it's just a flag you either have on or off, but it'd be interesting to speculate how to randomly generate rivers, such that they sloped instead of just cutting a slice out of the world down to sea level.

You can also try the Valleys Mapgen that features rivers with slope and mountains with less sharp cliffs.
Oh, right, wasn't "Valleys" the one that actually used river water? I seem to recall that getting a little messy, thus why v7 took the easy route and made all rivers sea level.

paramat wrote:> it seems to generate these vagely convex vertical cracks, which I'd like to disable in favor of canyons or caves. Is that possible? To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something?

I don't know what you're referring to here, can you upload a screenshot?
Sure! I've got two screenshots for the width and breadth of one such crack, as well as a third with some cut stone blocks for measuring the width.

screenshot_20190106_040145.jpg
width is narrow
(84.4 KiB) Not downloaded yet


screenshot_20190106_040134.jpg
breadth is wide
(102.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet


screenshot_20190106_040007.jpg
only five blocks
(106.07 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Do this before starting a new world, it won't have effect in existing worlds.


Well... you could always edit map_meta.txt and delete map.sqlite, but yeah it's safest to start a new world.

The request for flat areas is being heard, i'm making sure to code those into my WIP core mapgen, and Carpathian Mapgen (MT 5.0.0 only) has flat areas.
I was looking at Carpathian and it seems pretty interesting so far. It also has those cracks/crevices unfortunately. It does certainly have flat areas though, very flat, and then... holy crap.
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by Gael de Sailly » Mon Jan 07, 2019 00:20

cy wrote:it seems to generate these vagely convex vertical cracks, which I'd like to disable in favor of canyons or caves. Is that possible? To adjust mapgen to widen them, or something?

This needs to modify some noise parameters. I've tested that:
Code: Select all
mgv7_np_cave1 = {
   lacunarity = 2
   persistence = 0.5
   octaves = 3
   offset = 0
   scale = 12
   flags =
   spread = (61,31,61)
   seed = 52534
}
mgv7_np_cave2 = {
   lacunarity = 2
   persistence = 0.5
   octaves = 3
   offset = 0
   scale = 12
   flags =
   spread = (67,34,67)
   seed = 10325
}

Here I have decreased the middle coordinate of the spread, which basically defines the proportions of the caves, to flatten them vertically. You can also increase the 2 other components to stretch them horizontally.

cy wrote:And speaking of cliffs, is there some way to tweak mapgen settings so that there are broad, flat areas, then a transition of gently rolling hills, and then towering mountains?

That's what I've tried to soften cliffs, now they look like gentle hills instead of walls.
Code: Select all
mgv7_np_height_select = {
   lacunarity = 2
   persistence = 0.7
   octaves = 6
   offset = -0.5
   scale = 2
   flags = eased
   spread = (500,500,500)
   seed = 4213
}

+ Screenshot


I've also tried to modify river parameters but didn't came to anything worth being shown.
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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by paramat » Thu Jan 10, 2019 06:19

Thanks, those cracks are the 'tunnels'. I've had another request for turning those off, currently the only way to do so without removing all caves is to alter the noise params 'cave1', 'cave2', i'll get back to you on that.
If you want to widen them use the parameter called 'cave_width', every mapgen has that parameter, it only affects the crack-like tunnels.

> Oh, right, wasn't "Valleys" the one that actually used river water? I seem to recall that getting a little messy, thus why v7 took the easy route and made all rivers sea level.

It's not messy, river water has special properties to avoid mess. Mgvalleys came long after mgv7 so mgv7 didn't have sea level rivers due to mgvalleys.
 

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Re: Mapgen v7 peeves, cracks, cliff rivers, instamountains

by paramat » Thu Jan 31, 2019 23:55

There have been some requests for how to disable the 'caves'/'cracks'/'tunnels' that intersect the surface in non-mgv6 mapgens.
For mgv7 add this to the minetest.conf file. or find the parameter in advanced settings:
Code: Select all
mgv7_cave_width = 1000

Yes larger values mean narrower caves.
All non-mgv6 mapgens have this parameter.
 


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