Let's talk about combat

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PolySaken
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Post

texmex wrote:
PolySaken wrote:Whether they succeed in their assault would be decided by the weapon's range field and the angle of the attack.
This could also work without targeting, simply by looking for mobs by raycasting and proximity.
^This approach is probably better for minetest IMO. it fits with the theme better.
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texmex
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Post

PolySaken wrote:
texmex wrote:
PolySaken wrote:Whether they succeed in their assault would be decided by the weapon's range field and the angle of the attack.
This could also work without targeting, simply by looking for mobs by raycasting and proximity.
^This approach is probably better for minetest IMO. it fits with the theme better.
Let's prototype it then! :)

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Post

texmex wrote:
PolySaken wrote:
texmex wrote: This could also work without targeting, simply by looking for mobs by raycasting and proximity.
^This approach is probably better for minetest IMO. it fits with the theme better.
Let's prototype it then! :)
I've been trying out the targeting thing. perhaps players could have a choice between targeting or raycasting.
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Exilyth
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Exilyth » Post

Imho there's not a lot of feedback during combat, e.g. many mobs lack attack animations and injury states. Just moving the mob a little closer before triggering the attack/damage would go a long way in this regard.
Without a healthbar, hp number or floating damage text on/near mobs, it's hard to tell how much damage an attack does and hard to judge how powerfull a mob is. Having a mob look injured/weaker depending on health (e.g. via a texture switch) could alleviate this.


Many games have some sort of charging/power attack mechanic where holding the attack button prepares a stronger attack. That could make combat a bit more interesting.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Post

About floating damage numbers, this can easily be achieved by using particles.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Post

texmex wrote:About floating damage numbers, this can easily be achieved by using particles.
So like minecraft's damage indicators mod?
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Post

PolySaken wrote:
texmex wrote:About floating damage numbers, this can easily be achieved by using particles.
So like minecraft's damage indicators mod?
Had to google that but yes, exactly.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Post

Exilyth wrote:Imho there's not a lot of feedback during combat, e.g. many mobs lack attack animations and injury states. Just moving the mob a little closer before triggering the attack/damage would go a long way in this regard.
Without a healthbar, hp number or floating damage text on/near mobs, it's hard to tell how much damage an attack does and hard to judge how powerfull a mob is. Having a mob look injured/weaker depending on health (e.g. via a texture switch) could alleviate this.


Many games have some sort of charging/power attack mechanic where holding the attack button prepares a stronger attack. That could make combat a bit more interesting.
With MobsRedo you can have HP over the mobs; the indicator even changes colors (from green to red).

With regard to the strength of the mobs (i.e. how hard they hit), it's more a game design thing. The bigger the mob, the harder it hits is a usual convention, although you are a bit limited on how big a mob can be because mobs with a base larger than one block tend to have issues with terrain (due to the non-rotating collision box among other things); if they are flying (or swimming) there's less issues. IMHO you don't need anything more than this, because discovering how strong are each mobs is an interesting aspect of a game. As long as they don't instagib you, that is, otherwise it's just frustrating.

The red flash effect when you get hit could vary in strength depending on how much HP you lose. It might be already the case, though. If it is, however, it's not "obvious enough" imho.

Charging/power attack can be emulated relatively easily with a mana regen game mechanic - if "mana" makes sense in your game (in a sci-fi game you can have energy weapons etc.). For instance, I have wands that need mana to operate. Depending on your mana pool, you can shoot two-four fireballs that deal typically less damage than the sword (because ranged weapons are advantageous). After than, you have to buy time while your mana is recharging, or finish the mob off with your sword. Some mobs hit quite hard in CQC and have either a range close to the players' or a running speed close to the speed of the players (depends on players' armor), so they have to think a little about how they want to fight a mob (or chose to avoid it entirely if they can - it should always be an option unless the player is really too careless).

I think a lot of things can be done with mods to enhance combat, but the issue is that the specific game mechanics are heavily... game dependent.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Teen_Miner » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 09:20
I found that combat in Minetest is a bit confusing and might use some improvements.

Have you noticed that when you are attacked by a few monsters at once, you are hopeless with a stone sword? Also in 5.0, it's planned that iron ore will occur deeper, which will make you even more hopeless.

The full-punch interval is a nice feature but it leads to confusion. If you are raged and hit a mob by a stone sword too frequently, it doesn't do anything, so you feel like something is wrong here. It's because the damage is rounded down to zero, so it does zero damage. You actually have to click ... wait ... click ... wait ... click ... wait, which is quite boring and unusable when you are attacked by multiple enemies.

My suggestion is changing this:

tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4)

to this:

math.sqrt(tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4))

The full punch interval will still play a role but your rage will make you stronger. Also knockback should be applied to all hits, not only full punches. The knockback will then depend on the damage taken. With these two improvements, you won't be so hopeless against a smaller horde of enemies while possessing only a stone sword.

What do you think?
I don't know if I'm understanding right but that sounds like it would encourage blind spamming.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Post

Yes. FWIW, 3 years down the road, I eventually did the exact opposite in my game: zero damage if you attack again within the full punch interval, which therefore works as a raw cooldown. I've added a sound effect when players "do it wrong". I find it better than the default "proportional" approach, as it introduces the mini-challenge of maximizing your DPS in combat (and learn not to panic).

Of all things discussed in this thread, four things were implemented AFAIK: this, damage numbers particles, some sort of charging/burst DPS in combat, and an alternative to ugly selection boxes for entities. You can see how they can work together in my game, Minefall.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by sorcerykid » Post

That's a really interesting approach Atrobe, esp. the feedback sound effect. It's certainly a lot more useful than leaving players just blindly spam-clicking and not understanding why nothing happens.

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 08:00
Yes. FWIW, 3 years down the road, I eventually did the exact opposite in my game: zero damage if you attack again within the full punch interval, which therefore works as a raw cooldown. I've added a sound effect when players "do it wrong". I find it better than the default "proportional" approach, as it introduces the mini-challenge of maximizing your DPS in combat (and learn not to panic).
That is interesting. Not being able to punch again until a timeout expires is a mechanism which is used in many other games also. I also like the sound effect, so the player knows that he does something wrong and it's not just lag. I'm just wondering if the timeout resets each time the player tries to use the weapon too early. It would be nice if it didn't reset.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by ddm1419 » Post

I agree sword damage should be increased - by 1 or 2 should be enough

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 14:08
That is interesting. Not being able to punch again until a timeout expires is a mechanism which is used in many other games also. I also like the sound effect, so the player knows that he does something wrong and it's not just lag. I'm just wondering if the timeout resets each time the player tries to use the weapon too early. It would be nice if it didn't reset.
It does reset. AFAIK we don't have much control over this time-out. Also switching to another item does not reset either.

However I see it as good thing. Otherwise, if you don't mind the continuous "whoosh" effect, you can just keep the button pressed all the time or so during combat. Discouraging action spam is also a good way to decrease a little the network traffic in multiplayer.

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