New, less moddable minetest game?

Would you appreciate a new less moddable, minetest story game?

Yes
11
52%
No
4
19%
I dont care
3
14%
Maybe
3
14%
 
Total votes : 21

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AiTechEye
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New, less moddable minetest game?

by AiTechEye » Tue Jun 25, 2019 14:43

as viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22764


(sorry, added "maybe" then the votes disappeared)

minetest is pretty boring without mods / meaningless, and the developers can't really do what they want due regards to servers and tons of mods.

Why not make a new, less or none moddable, expermental game?

Less server/mod friendly, but singleplayer friendly and allows changes without regard to mods / servers.

The goal could be to make a intresting "story", not just an example of it.

This would problaty make more people intrested, and keep the borred ones, like me.

And yes, there are already many games able but are made from one or a few people's taste, and aren't bundled.
Last edited by AiTechEye on Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:56, edited 7 times in total.
 

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Re: New, less modable minetest game?

by Red_King_Cyclops » Tue Jun 25, 2019 17:04

AiTechEye wrote:as viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22764

minetest is pretty boring without mods / meaningless, and the developers can't really do what they want due regards to servers and tons of mods.

Why not make a new, less or none moddable, expermental game?

Less server/mod friendly, but singleplayer friendly and allows changes without regard to mods / servers.

The goal could be to make a intresting "story", not just an example of it.

This would problaty make more people intrested, and keep the borred ones, like me.

And yes, there are already many games able but are made from one or a few people's taste, and aren't bundled.


I like the idea, as long as there would be other games that could be installed that would be more mod-able. The idea of a game that would focus more on story and less on mods (more mods could interfere with the story) could be interesting and help introduce new players to Minetest.
I'm working on a mod that is essentially Galacticraft for Minetest (with differences).
 

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Re: New, less modable minetest game?

by ShadMOrdre » Tue Jun 25, 2019 18:12

In trying to envision this, many questions arise.

All current "games" for minetest engine are basically a collection of mods. Even MTG, is nothing but a collection of mods. So by "non-moddable", do you mean a "game" where no additional mods are needed, or do you mean a "game" without the lua api, and is not moddable due to lack of mod api?

A complete collection of mods, that compose a game, is more easily attainable than would be to remove the lua api from minetest engine.

I've currently assembled, what IMO, is essentially a complete framework for game creation. I've collected a number of mods that provide APIs, that expand the player experience, such as sys4_quests, awards, skills_framework, and of course, the various player mods, like the various hudbars, 3darmor, and skindsdb.

What I envision, is a complete package of mods, tailored not to a specific game, but made in such a way that players could simply create a game of their liking. This might seem a no go, but what if players could choose a game style, say, RPG, RTS, MMORPG, 4x Turn based, or 3D Shooter. Parkour maps, escape rooms, stop the train, capture the flag, hide and seek, and so many others are possible as well.

The devil is in the details. So many mods exist that accommodate MTG. But when game developers use these mods for their own games, it seems that they leave all the MTG stuff intact, thus making their own game feel more MTG, and far less than their own vision.

The awards mod, by reubenwardy, is a perfect example of this, as is Wuzzys doc modpack. If these mods are found within a game, they are usually left as is, or are only modified in limited ways, to make it work with whatever changes to the default mod the game makes. This is the issue. The awards mod should be nothing more than an API, in which other mods and games that use the api HAVE to provide their own interactions. In other words, my "game" should not use the parts of the awards mod made for MTG, but instead provide my own awards, tailored to my game, using items, and awarding items based on the items available in my game. This gets tedious.

I'm not calling out any mods for bad behavior here. Both awards and doc are great mods, and this is not a mod issue anyway. I am simply pointing to how the various mods get used by game devs. They are thrown in to provide a minimal set of features, but are rarely if ever utilized to their fullest extent within the game.

IMO, a "non-moddable" game would basically mean providing all the APIs and a good collection of nodes, items, and mobs, all adapted in such a way that players, everyday users, could essentially "build" the game they choose, simply by picking a few options, and letting the "game" code do the dark magic.

Shad
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Re: New, less modable minetest game?

by AiTechEye » Tue Jun 25, 2019 19:33

probably the wrong word, but my idea is that if devs often changes the code, then we can't expect all mods will work until the next version, which makes it less moddable. or maybe core functions that only meant to work with that game.

but if we want to give devs full opportunity to do what they want with the game, we can't force modding opportunities.

So, to be clear, there would be 3 games:
minetest story or something
minetest game
minimal

(changed the poll a bit)
Last edited by AiTechEye on Wed Jun 26, 2019 07:30, edited 2 times in total.
 

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Re: New, less modable minetest game?

by solars » Tue Jun 25, 2019 19:51

AiTechEye wrote:(changed the poll a bit)


Changed my vote a bit. :)
Sounds interesting.
I would play it. But not much, since my actual map uses a big part from my free time.

And I would love it, when there will be usable NPCs for own Adventures-Game-Like Minetest maps.
When such a thing is finished and stable enough for modding, then I will make an RPG from my Karsthafen map....
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by parasite » Wed Jun 26, 2019 20:25

I have no idea what has mods to do with the idea here, but I guess what you are looking for is "complex game", not "moddable less or none". Such game will need a hundreds mods, well balanced each others.
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 06:17

You can add a lot of mods and compose a game yourself. However, it is hard to make it consistent. Many times I see such composed game, it makes me feel that it's a bloat. For example, similar items act way differently only because they originate from different mod, there are so few recipes which combine items from different mods, there are items which I'd never use seriously etc..
So I would appreciate one game which is both entertaining and consistent.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Red_King_Cyclops » Thu Jun 27, 2019 14:30

I just thought of an over-the-top idea for a Minetest story. This is how it goes:
+ Spoiler


Edit: changes:
Red_King_Cyclops wrote:
AiTechEye wrote:i would prefer something else then religions and gods, but otherwise it sounds good to me


I thought of some changes to remove the religions and gods from the story.

Like before, there would be a rift in the universe. The rift in the universe would allow monsters from another universe to enter the Minetest universe and invade the player's world. The monsters would set up 5 key fortifications adapted to certain environments (for example, a magma fortification would be deep underground). The player would be able to defeat the fortifications and gain cosmic crystals to craft a cosmic portal to Deep Space. When in Deep Space, the player would defeat the main fortification in Outer Space, defeat the leader monster, banish the monsters back to their own universe, and seal the rift.

Perhaps instead of defeating fortifications, the player could find ancient ruins and steal artefacts from them to craft a cosmic portal.
Last edited by Red_King_Cyclops on Sat Jun 29, 2019 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
I'm working on a mod that is essentially Galacticraft for Minetest (with differences).
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by AiTechEye » Thu Jun 27, 2019 20:31

i would prefer something else then religions and gods, but otherwise it sounds good to me
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Red_King_Cyclops » Fri Jun 28, 2019 00:45

AiTechEye wrote:i would prefer something else then religions and gods, but otherwise it sounds good to me


I thought of some changes to remove the religions and gods from the story.

Like before, there would be a rift in the universe. The rift in the universe would allow monsters from another universe to enter the Minetest universe and invade the player's world. The monsters would set up 5 key fortifications adapted to certain environments (for example, a magma fortification would be deep underground). The player would be able to defeat the fortifications and gain cosmic crystals to craft a cosmic portal to Deep Space. When in Deep Space, the player would defeat the main fortification in Outer Space, defeat the leader monster, banish the monsters back to their own universe, and seal the rift.

Perhaps instead of defeating fortifications, the player could find ancient ruins and steal artefacts from them to craft a cosmic portal.
I'm working on a mod that is essentially Galacticraft for Minetest (with differences).
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 08:29

I don't like games inventing their own religions because they interfere with the real-world religions. Call them lords, masters, kings, whatever, just not gods. You can inspire by Tolkien's legends, in which Tolkien invented his own words for his powerful beings.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Red_King_Cyclops » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:42

Hume2 wrote:I don't like games inventing their own religions because they interfere with the real-world religions. Call them lords, masters, kings, whatever, just not gods. You can inspire by Tolkien's legends, in which Tolkien invented his own words for his powerful beings.

I agree. Keeping fictional religions out of games keeps them more universal. I made some changes to my story in my previous post to remove the gods and religions. Since temples are religious, I replaced them in the story with either fortifications or ancient ruins (I haven't decided yet). I also replaced the gods with monsters.
I'm working on a mod that is essentially Galacticraft for Minetest (with differences).
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Wuzzy » Fri Jun 28, 2019 23:39

I think this thread is just too vague to start an useful discussion. Basically this all just boils down with “current situation is bad, let's do something different”. OK, nice, but exactly what do you plan?

Perhaps ask me the question again when you got a more thought-out concept that is more detailed than just “game with story”. As of now, this is not even a very rough sketch.

Besides, why bother asking us anyway? Just go ahead and do the thing if you want to do it. Who's gonna stop you?

But I do agree that Minetest Game sucks. :-) I think that the possiblity to mod is not a problem at all, the problem is that Minetest Game's gameplay is just very shallow (you run out of content fast) and poorly balanced. It just feels like an incomplete game.

I don't like games inventing their own religions

What is wrong with invented religions or gods? As a huge fan of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, I feel insulted, no, personally attacked! :O

And now excuse me while I go berserk for Trog's glory! XD
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by benrob0329 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 00:08

because they interfere with the real-world religions


I would think that a given deity would be more insulted you added them to your fictional world and "made them" do things they didn't actually do than for you to treat it like it's own world with it's own beliefs and problems.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by AiTechEye » Sat Jun 29, 2019 08:01

What is wrong with invented religions or gods?


Due my beliefs I don't playing with religions or gods, not even in a game, many others proably does same.

And because of the world's course of events, religion and deities are becoming less and less popular, which most of us probably notice. so its a bad idea.


The point of this topic is to diskus for ideas, and hopefully a plan for a versatile game/story we or someone can begin. probably start a team.

Alone you wont make it versatile game/story or atleast a good one if you aren't experienced, and the development goes slowly, and dies when you gets bored
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:36

I think, we should then begin somehow. There are a few things which should be decided:

Which theme should the game have? Should it be more realistic-ish or full of magic? How much should it involve combat? How much should it involve logic decisions? How wide variety of biomes should it have? Should there be more or less the same biomes as in default or there should be only many variants of a single biome? Which technologies should the players start with?

Which existing mods can be used? Which of them need to be modified? Is it needed do develop any new api for anything?

I can imagine that these questions can be answered in many different ways while each way makes sense. However, it must be decided so it won't become a bloat.

For now, a consistent set of features is enough. I think, a story isn't needed in this phase but it's good to have it. The set of items should be consistent, which means also that each must have its purpose. And please, don't make huge cartesian products of features, it is boring and it is easy to exceed the node limit using this.

If you decide for any kind of elemental magic, there can be one damage group for each of the elements. That way, each mob can be resistant or weak against different elements.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by ShadMOrdre » Sat Jun 29, 2019 23:02

So herein lies the issue.

MT engine and MTG aside, the reason that there is no story, is that a story requires details, actions, events, experiences, characters, places, scenes, all of which come together in the plot.

Before starting anything, is this fantasy, sci-fi, realworld, alternate reality, what is the genre? This is an important first step to any story, as it sets the stage. Those who would prefer no religion are probably going to shy away from the fantasy genre, even though religion can be found an sci-fi.

Using inside references as key story elements is also probably not helpful. Irrlicht and celeron are not the best choices for names, they are both either trademarked or trademarkable for other purposes, which simply complicates future usage and licensing.

The beauty of MT is that all game types and genres can be accommodated, if one is willing to do the dirty work. A game, in the MT sense, is a mod salad. The reason that this mod salad never seems like a "real" game, is that the mods are thrown together simply because they work without crashing. They provide content as well as game mechanics, but are rarely updated to provide "game" specific functionality.

As an example, take the awards mod. Great mod. Works as advertised. But this mod is then thrown into a game, and, except for the included awards, the mod is underutilized by the game using the mod. There are usually no awards that are specific to the game in question, only awards that mimic MTG and it's gameplay mechanic.

To tell a story, you will need far more than a mod salad. You will need to highly customize the mod salad to provide the story you wish to tell. The devil is in the details. If you are not willing to suffer those details, all efforts will be less than satisfactory, and more likely downright embarrassing.

I've been working to cobble together what, IMO, would be a complete "game" making package of mods, that allows users to select various details, such as game type (RTS, RPG, 3dShooter), game rules (which is where most details lie), and other custom content. This is a far larger project than 1 person, but.. hey.... I got time.

Others have spoken to the amount of effort that goes into a quality game. The devs are not wrong when they say most players do not have the mod skills to make this happen. Some of us do have those skills, but we all work on our own projects, there is no collaboration, or visions are simply different and non-compatible.

This is only the beginning of the issues we face.

We would need:
Writers, who can develop story boards and write good prose and dialog.
Artists, both 3D modelers and texture artists. This also needs coherence in the form of consistency.
Coders, Lua and C. Lua for the game fluff, C to make better things happen.
A well structured organization between the above personnel, with clear guidelines on who does what.

With the above conditions, and a healthy understanding of the other issues mentioned above, online collaborative game development can really work to make something more than MTG, MCL2, CTF, or ITB.

Shad
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 08:39

ShadMOrdre wrote:...
Those who would prefer no religion are probably going to shy away from the fantasy genre, even though religion can be found an sci-fi.
...

I have a strong counter-example here. Lord of the Rings and all other Tolkien's legends. These fantasy stories are very famous and don't invent any "religion" at all.

I am a chrisitan and my opinion is as follows:
I am strongly against inventing religions for games or stories for all reasons above. Religion is no game.
The God is present in all computers in which the games are played and therefore the God affects all games, regardless of what they are about. That way, religion-based game mechanics don't have to be necessarily added, the only reason might be giving a good example to kids. Adding religion-based NPCs is justify only when the game tells a known myth or a real story.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by AiTechEye » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:49

ok, now soemthing happens

there are lots of experienced users in the minetest community, and more people will join and support later, so that wont be a problem, as long not too big disputes appears.

before we makes things, what about the game, so we have something to start with:
1: the character(s) and who is it about, and example of how it looks like
2: the begining of the story & where, Red_King_Cyclops had a good idea
3: the goal & where

(sorry, added "maybe" then the votes disappeared)
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 17:09

I think, a modified version of Red_King_Cyclops's story could be fine. I thought a beginning of the story from player perspective:
+ Spoiler


Also keep in mind that the game can be played by many players and the count of players isn't limited (well, it is, to a high number). Also each player can leave the game forever any time, keeping whole his inventory. So I think, the players should keep their own personality, it's the easiest way to handle this.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by texmex » Sun Jun 30, 2019 17:56

Consult this guide

To make a game, you must go through the 6 stages of game development: Design. Art. Code. Audio. Polish. Market.


There are of course a multitude of methods availble, but it’s key to nail the core concept early, probably especially when collaborating freely.
 

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by ShadMOrdre » Sun Jun 30, 2019 23:07

Just to be clear, a summary statement about a story, is not a story.

Stories involve details. Scenes where actions take place, dialog that takes place between characters, an overarching plot, that guides the actions and dialog, which make up the story.


+ Spoiler


There are many stories to be told. There are fantasy-noir and steam-fantasy possibilities. One just needs to begin writing them.

I almost thinks it would be better to write not a single story, but to provide the tools needed for average users to compose their own story and game.

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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Hume2 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 19:16

How do you want to involve details when we don't even have any stable concept?

Note that the story of an open-world game is very constrained. Right now, I can tell you a few constraints:
  • Each player who joins the game must be involved in the story.
  • Each player should have (roughly) the same chance to finish the story.
  • The players can't behave in a way that the story becomes unfinishable. Or at least doing so must be extremely hard.
  • The story must make sense even if the players act independently.

So after you make up a concept which satisfies these constraints, you can talk about details.
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Re: New, less moddable minetest game?

by Red_King_Cyclops » Mon Jul 01, 2019 19:28

What if the story game was single player only?
I'm working on a mod that is essentially Galacticraft for Minetest (with differences).
 

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