MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

Jessss
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MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Jessss » Fri Aug 30, 2019 16:03

Throwing in two quotes below to sum up the asinine problem with MineTest.

We are in a situation where the linux community is split between too many projects, dividing labour and time which is under-resourced. This makes no sense. In addition the linux community has the most foul-minded people in it, who think they are good when they suck at fundamentals. We see this across many releases of linux and here, Minecraft style games.
These developers think they can work at a slow pace "just like the commercial developers". This is insane. They have financial and early start advantages. The way to benefit on that is to have the late start advantage but also don't copy their lazy pace. I've never seen linux have the proper mentality. This problem is avoidable.

Minetest seems closed source? Because people can't update it? Isn't that a stupid move? In that case every other "clone" should collect together and leave Minetest in the dust.

It's not worth waiting around for 12 developers working on 12 forked or same games imo. Someone needs to get through to these devs or collect together the other devs into one group and have it work hard at feature sets.

ABJ wrote:The attitude of quite a lot of Minetesters and devs is just sad. "Minetest is not Minecraft. STFU and GTFO. Period. We don't give a damn what you 12-year-old creeperheads want."


ShadMOrdre wrote:Polish. This is the only area lacking for MT.

MC "feels" more involving, immersive, because it is. Background music, ambient sound, games that aren't just a sandbox.

We have CTF, Mineclone and Minetest Game (both of which aren't applicable, since they both are derivitives of MC), and a few other games, (Survivaltest, Mars, LOTT, Adventuretest, GrailTest, InsideTheBox, Flux); but, I really don't see anything compelling enough to harass my friends into playing.

The games made for MT all just seem to be lacking depth. This is not a slam on the games. Just an honest observation. Most games made for MT seem to regurgitate the same mods, expecting some dramatic difference in gameplay. This is called insanity....

Instead of breaking immersion, MT should take the leap, and use inworld items for everything. You do not craft, but have to make machines and mechanisms to manufacture. Awards and quests have actual depth, beyond, "mine a stone". Instead of having to dl 15 different mods to have a decent "Player", this should just be included. I should never have to track down why my avatar is half buried. We need MUSIC!!!! (And this coming from someone who really dislikes in game music). We need the things in the world that make noise, to make noise, instead of dl a mod that attempts to provide ambience. MT needs consistent look and feel. TPs are ok, but I can't help but think of all the time wasted recreating the same thing, just with a different look, instead of creating something new. How many default trees do we need? How about a new tree?

This utter lack of immersive depth is why MC has lost appeal, and why MT will suffer even worse. MT is a game engine. MC is a game. One is written in a low-level language, providing the best performance on metal. The other is written in a crappy script language that is infamous for it's utterly crappy performance. And yet, MC, in Java, runs better, has more depth, and well, has the marketing arm of a tech giant.

MT lacks nothing except polish. And the only way it will get any polish, is for those of use who want polish, to start "wax on...wax off"
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Krock » Fri Aug 30, 2019 16:47

What is this? Continuing a topic from scratch? I'm pretty sure all this stuff was already discussed at some point. Minetest is and will always be open source, although not all proposed changes will be added to the game.
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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by rubenwardy » Fri Aug 30, 2019 16:57

Minetest is open source because you, the user, have certain rights. It doesn't mean that upstream needs to accept every change.

Minetest and Minetest Game both release twice a year, this is fairly frequent compared to other open source games. Remember that we, the developers, are just contributors who have been trusted with extra privileges, and we are not paid to work full or even part time on Minetest.

As well as our volunteer-level number of hours, Minetest has existing problems that need to be corrected and navigated around before implementing new features. This makes it hard to review code and merge new features. 5.0.0 contained a large number of code improvements to help with this, but work is ongoing.

Additionally, most devs have other responsibilities. I have the minetest modding book, ContentDB, all my mods, and the capture the flag server and game. Until recently, I was working on my master's dissertation.

After doing this all for free, I find it a bit insulting to collectively be called foul-minded and incompetent.

Paramat is the defacto leader of minetest game, and wishes to keep it simple and not a game and direct people to develop other games. If you disagree with this, you can try expressing your opinion, I have. However, unless someone is willing to actually work on it, it'll never happen. It may be better to fork the game, improve it in a way that matches upstream expectations, and hope for a merge back. Even if it doesn't get merged back, it could be made a new default game. This has happened two times in Minetest Game history - Minetest Delta and Minetest NeXt were both forked and then merged back.

A good game will need one person with vision for how it should be, but not paramat. It also needs multiple contributors to be sustainable
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by DELTA_FORCE » Fri Aug 30, 2019 17:18

How about instead of insulting this entire community with this post, you do something to make MT better? Even you know it is open-source.

The source code is at https://github.com/minetest/minetest

I also think you forgot that we can't force the many great contributors of MT to just do free work. Again, the source code is right there so instead of complaining about wasting time, maybe you should stop wasting your time and do something productive.
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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by parasite » Sat Aug 31, 2019 09:22

So let's summarize: linux programmers are fools who work on too many programs (and that distracts them... Apparently all these linux coders should work with just single project at time, and besides GNU-Linux definitely has too much software. Why so many text editors? Is one Notepad not enough?). Those programmers work also too slow, not becouse they work with GNU-Linux in their free time without payment (and besides theirs programming passion they study or go to work, look after children, they cook dinner and so on) but becouse they are lazy. So, linux coders are stupid and lazy (and they waste their time doing a lot of useless things). And Minetest devs are the same, right? Stupid and lazy (and disorganized)?

And they need one strong, bossy father (a kind of sadistic psychopath with a belt in his hand) who would shout at them that they should forget about their college/university/work/spouses and must sit at the desk all day and do Minetest 6.0, right? And because they are stupid and lazy, they will not go outside till they will not finish their job with Minetest?
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Jessss » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:49

Thankyou for your contributions. I didn't mean it in an extreme way except that we all want to see better situation than Minecraft, lazy devs who are paid to be lazy and also hostile to the modding community. That's why we would all like to see a good situation.

Paramat definitely seems like a very bad problem for everyone concerned, because:
1) According to rubenwardy as you can see by his comment, Paramat was wrong twice over and made two teams waste time going outside to fork when it was integrated anyway after being refused. Rather than learn that this is stupid and aggravating to others including being bad in terms of administration (clearly), the situation continues without the ability to think about it and take responsibility for that.
2) The situation is, being 'stuck up' or something and being nasty upstream. Now I would be the first to criticise bad mods that are unclean or ugly, but it's too discouraging as seen from the other thread.

My main point about linux was we've seen it. We've seen mad decisions that aren't worth the trouble. Why have 10 minecraft style games? Anyone can see that's inefficient.

The central point I gather from the above is a problem with Paramat who was proven wrong twice (we can all agree that's true because of what was said here), which should arrange him to be stepped aside voluntarily at the least. Krock says Paramat is only a "defacto" leader. In that case, why have someone who created this two forking problem twice over that wasted resources twice? That's clearly wrong and bad judgement.

Second central point in summary is there isn't awareness of efficiency/rapid development even with this warning post of mine. By being too long winded, projects can take their toll on people who see little progress. This is a normal phenomenon that I'm not inventing it for no purpose, but pointing it out because all issues have to be addressed to minimise collapse or declination as has been seen with Minecraft modders often who don't update and disappoint players.

A side point people should think about is to recruit modders from Minecraft who keep developing for something who don't assist them in tool building or making modding easier, which is unintuitive and against their interests. They can avoid that treatment by coming over to Minetest (barring problems like Paramat still being difficult).
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by rubenwardy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 13:17

Jessss wrote:According to rubenwardy as you can see by his comment, Paramat was wrong twice over and made two teams waste time going outside to fork when it was integrated anyway after being refused. Rather than learn that this is stupid and aggravating to others including being bad in terms of administration (clearly), the situation continues without the ability to think about it and take responsibility for that


Those two mergebacks were before paramat became a core developer


I'll respond to the rest when I have time
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Sokomine » Sat Aug 31, 2019 15:59

Jessss wrote:Thankyou for your contributions. I didn't mean it in an extreme way except that we all want to see better situation than Minecraft, lazy devs who are paid to be lazy and also hostile to the modding community. That's why we would all like to see a good situation.

I don't know if the MC devs are lazy or how the situation of MC currently really is. I do know that I don't trust Microsoft very far.

Jessss wrote:Paramat definitely seems like a very bad problem for everyone concerned, because:

Oh? How comes? That sounds very odd to me. Paramat has been extremly helpful in the past and always tried to help modders if questions arose.

Jessss wrote:1) According to rubenwardy as you can see by his comment, Paramat was wrong twice over and made two teams waste time going outside to fork when it was integrated anyway after being refused. Rather than learn that this is stupid and aggravating to others including being bad in terms of administration (clearly), the situation continues without the ability to think about it and take responsibility for that.

I'm pretty certain that paramat was wrong more than twice in his life - because he's a human beeing. To err comes with beeing human. Anyone who's able to form an opinion or even assumption about something may err. Highly paid and highly educated people all make errors.

Apart from that - what makes you think that forking something, working on it, eliminiating errors, playing with something and testing how it works, and if it turns out to work well to integrate back into upstream would be a bad idea? Sometimes it may take time to convince others that a certain change is a good one. And sometimes the change turns out to be not so good.

Jessss wrote:2) The situation is, being 'stuck up' or something and being nasty upstream. Now I would be the first to criticise bad mods that are unclean or ugly, but it's too discouraging as seen from the other thread.

Ok, that I agree with. It may be frustrating if a good change isn't merged. And sometimes human beeings just don't manage to get along with each other without it beeing anyones fault. That is a problem in open source development.

Jessss wrote:My main point about linux was we've seen it. We've seen mad decisions that aren't worth the trouble. Why have 10 minecraft style games? Anyone can see that's inefficient.

Perhaps. But is "efficiency" (apart from fast code) really someones goal? And do we really have 10 minecraft style games? Mineclone2 tries to mimic it cloesly, but the other games are pretty diffrent. Most servers have a diffrent combination of mods and place their emphasis on other points, creating in effect new games. Can "efficiency" really be applied to any hobby? Mostly it's done to have fun. Buying the thing pre-made in a shop would be far more money- and time-efficient than creating something manually. But it would not be as satisfying.

Open source development isn't a company with a boss / review board that grades by efficiency and cancels progams that don't return enough revenue. Apart from some minimal donations to a handful of people (not enough to attract MC modders it seems), there's no money involved. Everyone decides for him/hershelf what he/she can offer.

Jessss wrote:Second central point in summary is there isn't awareness of efficiency/rapid development even with this warning post of mine. By being too long winded, projects can take their toll on people who see little progress. This is a normal phenomenon that I'm not inventing it for no purpose, but pointing it out because all issues have to be addressed to minimise collapse or declination as has been seen with Minecraft modders often who don't update and disappoint players.

I'm afraid that's also human. Developers may loose intrest after a time and move on to other projects. Can't do much against that. Only hope that enough new devs emerge.

Jessss wrote:A side point people should think about is to recruit modders from Minecraft who keep developing for something who don't assist them in tool building or making modding easier, which is unintuitive and against their interests. They can avoid that treatment by coming over to Minetest (barring problems like Paramat still being difficult).

Er, paramat isn't difficult. He really can be talked with. And those modders from MC would be welcomed here. Many did create great mods which where an inspiration and partly re-implemented in MT already. The problem there seems to be the diffrent mentality. MC mods often seem to be hidden behind suspicious links requiring JavaScript (most likely in order to show advertisements), whereas MT modders consider even the option of an NC clause in a license as suspicious.

If you want something done regarding an Open Source program, you can either do it yourself or motivate others to do it for you by convincing people or paying them. The difference in the end is that - unlike with closed source - you do have these options. It doesn't come with a free "all world shares your opinion and you're always right" card :-)
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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by ShadMOrdre » Sun Sep 01, 2019 03:02

Please do not use my words in response to a completely different topic to try to make your point here.

MT v MC. Why? Do you go around saying Ford v Queen of England? Apples and oranges are apples and oranges, not comparable and really a waste of time and effort to even think.

If you want MC, get off your free loading ass and go pay for it. I did. And I don't waste my time trying to compare this to that. I've got air particles to watch floating in the breeze as an example of ANYTHING better to do than make lousy comparisons.

If you want a freely available open source game engine that HAPPENS to look like minecrap, well, go and download the latest release of MT. It's an awesome little game engine with an awesome little script language API that HAPPENS to be great for teaching kids a whole ton of stuff,.....FOR FREE!!!

AGAIN, MT IS NOT MC and MC IS NOT MT. Are you a monkey, a dog, or a human? Should we compare you to the others???

By the way, go check out my latest updates to lib_materials and lib_ecology. I GUARANTEE you won't find that in MC for FREE, if at all.

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by ShadMOrdre » Sun Sep 01, 2019 03:21

I'd like to add a completely separate point here.

Firstly, open source has always been more of a hobbyist mentality. It's at its very roots. Remember the Homebrew club? Hackers, hobbyists, folks just playing with the tech.

Great things came out of that, and yet, I doubt there were many of the geeks who were thinking, "How much money can I make off of this?" Then there were the vultures. Those who sought to capitalize and exploit the creativity.

Your arguments wreak of the latter.

I code because I can. Because I enjoy it. I share my creations because it is my nature to share. That is open source. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you seek freely available content from which you can also create and share, then great. You get open source.

If you seek freely available content from which you can capitalize and exploit, then continue the questions and comparisons. You'll make your motivations very clear very soon.

I won't speak for anyone, or have my words used out of context by anyone. I speak my opinions, as do others. But they are only my opinions.

At the heart of the comment you quoted, you missed the entire point. Reread the last sentence until you get it. It is the only part of that entire comment that bears truth. That statement sums up the problem, and provides the only solution. Until you get that, do not quote me.

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Chiantos » Sun Sep 01, 2019 09:02

Compare Minetest and Minecraft this is same of compare rice and paws, it's not the same product.

Minetest provides a basis with which to make your recipe. If you do not like the basic element, you can always replace it with another product (another engine) or another version of this product (fork).

I wanted a fork in the beginning, I will now change the engine. But if you want a similar product to Minecraft, nothing prevents you to create your own fork, choose another engine or code from scratch your own game / engine.

Minetest has the advantage of being able to create a prototype easily of his game, which is necessarily more complicated on a product like minecraft. Both products have a different vision, one is closer to a garrymod where you can play different types of games (minetest) and the other is closer to a single game.

If Minetest had not been there, I could not have easily created a prototype for my project, it allowed me to discover a lot of things and even if I think now use Unity, I could have done an idea of ​​what I wanted to get and if the idea was good or not.

Minecraft could not have allowed me that, it would have been more complicated to do it for the legal or programming side.

Many projects have started this way, so you can avoid wasting money (or reducing losses) on a project that does not know if it will work or not, Minetest is perfect for creating prototypes.

You can then decide to continue using Minetest or use another engine or do your own. See also Minetest as a showcase, it shows that your project works and to be much more visible because there is less projects (whether through the stores or servers) on Minetest than on Minecraft. Minetest is perfect as it is by default, it allows to create projects, it is mainly for creators, while Minecraft is primarily for players.

Yes, I would not on people advise for create a game with Minetest ... But this is more related to some aspect of its license and some members of the community, but to create a prototype and avoid a loss of money, it is better than Minecraft.

You can See Minetest as a GarryMod or Roblox. You could have compared it to Minecraft at the time when it was still called minetest-c55.
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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Wuzzy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:49

In addition the linux community has the most foul-minded people in it, who think they are good when they suck at fundamentals. We see this across many releases of linux and here, Minecraft style games.


I like to hear of concrete evidence for this claim. Incompetence is a serious accusation. Do you think Linux developers are incompetent? This is surprising …



These developers think they can work at a slow pace "just like the commercial developers".

I don't think like that. Granted, development on MCL2 has been basically non-existant in the past months, but that's only because I'm in a lot of other projects and I can't do everything at once. I never justify it with because of “the commercial developers”. This logic doesn't even make sense to me.
Lately, my focus was on cleaning up and updating my various mods and releasing Pixture Revival. https://wiki.minetest.net/User:Wuzzy

But yeah, maybe I just get distracted too often, I should try to focus more. That's not always easy … :-/ I have already kissed good-bye to a couple of old mods that I didn't touch in ages and don't want to touch anytime soon. Feels kind of liberating.

I think “finalizing a game” is a big problem in the free software community in general. There's just so many dead projects. Projects that had SIGNIFICANT work input and are almost finished, but when it came to the final polishing touches, it was dropped on the floor. Very frustrating to see all the work go to waste. I don't really know how to fix this problem other than saying “Be more discliplined!” but that doesn't really help.

I also like to note that atm, MCL2 really seems to be the only at least semi-serious attempt to imitate MC atm.

Minetest seems closed source?

This is nonsense, rubenwardy already explained it. Open source does NOT mean “collaborative development”. This is a very common misconception. I could very well reject all contributions in MCL2 and it would still be open source / free software.
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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Jessss » Tue Sep 03, 2019 13:23

Seems to be just a numbers problem which is why I said MCraft modders coming across could be very useful, plus recoupe oss developers from redundent or unuseful projects by getting more awareness in the overall community.
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by dgm5555 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 16:23

is there anyway to access a minecraft server with the minetest client? - there are tons of free minecraft servers and bizarrely there is only one relatively expensive PC client which accesses them.
I would absolutely use minetest as a client if I could and given the inane minecraft music I would be more than happy playing youtube music in the background...
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by twoelk » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:56

dgm5555 wrote:is there anyway to access a minecraft server with the minetest client? ...


nope

the similarities are basically just from the look and feel as exposed to the player. Under the hood differences are large. They view and organize the world differently and the communication protocols are different. So the clients and servers cannot communicate and if they could they would not understand the content as the way the world is described and the way the node types are organized is totaly different. ... and that is not even going into how physics and privs are handled.
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by wziard » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:13

dgm5555 wrote: - there are tons of free minecraft servers and bizarrely there is only one relatively expensive PC client which accesses them.

Nothing bizarre about that. Minecraft is a commercial product. The servers may be 'free', but the server program itself isn't. And neither is the client, of course.
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by paramat » Sat Sep 07, 2019 00:06

Jessss, your posts are unpleasant nonsense.

> These developers think they can work at a slow pace "just like the commercial developers".

Actually we work much slower than commercial developers =)

> Paramat is the defacto leader of minetest game,

Well meh ... i was very active and have many commits, but i think that gives the wrong impression and suggests i have some kind of power others don't. That will also unjustifiably tend to raise resentment against me, as if there wasn't enough already in this thread.

MTG has no leader, there are many MTG core devs, all have equal power, no one can do anything alone or block anything alone.
My attitude to MTG is somewhat different to most of the other core devs, so my desires that differ from theirs will usually be outvoted.
I won't be working much on MTG in future, i'm focussing on new games.

> A good game will need one person with vision for how it should be, but not paramat.

I agree, i don't have much sense of 'gameplay'.
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by Jessss » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:52

I had an idea. There should be a lot of people in developing countries who are trying programming and want to make it. If they got the idea open source is a good training or test ground there should be many numbers.
 

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Re: MineTest vs MineCraft: What is Status?

by bhree » Sat Sep 14, 2019 14:39

I'm from a developing country, but we are too lazy and prefer piracy and stay on MC with more bells and whistles. MT really opens ways to learn computing, but that's only for geek gamers not for pure gamers.
 


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