Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

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Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

The purpose of this topic is to offer a comprehensive list of suggestions, tweaks and additions to the base Minetest Game. As its bundled by default with the Minetest engine, I believe it is important to contiune providing support. I disagree with the expressed sentiment to remove Minetest Game entirely, as it still is a start above all else, and there's a lot of things that can work out.

Minetest Game is predominantly enriched by the multiplayer component. Therefore, any feature inclusions will mostly focus on that, as there is zero PVE aspect introduced in the Minetest Game, and mob API support is a long ways off + requires a considerable amount of time, dedication and effort. While I will touch on the ways PVE aspects can be introduced (some form of inherent danger providing a sense of challenge without introducing an entirely new mob system), there is no denying that the multiplayer scene is just as important - one look at the server list and the predominantly used gamemode will support my view.

Player VS Player additions
+ Spoiler
Player VS Environment additions
+ Spoiler
Visual/sound design should also receive an upgrade with a consistent vision reflected in a guideline for what is expected to be the general game feel, including the sort of emotions the players should feel at various points during gameplay.

Feel free to reply with your suggestions and ideas, the endgoal with this is complexity and depth introduced from simple to understand and implement mechanics where applicable.
Last edited by Crystalwarrior on Sat May 16, 2020 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Cartmic » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
And what would you replace it with? What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

Cartmic wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 20:11
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
And what would you replace it with? What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?
It's too deeply ingrained into Minetest's identity. You abandon MTG, you abandon the entire foundation the game rests on, and you essentially have to start from scratch. So I agree with Cartmic

Plus, it still is a foundation, and it's a solid one. Most of the issues associated with MTG is that it's shallow/has coder sprites/bad audio, the moment that's resolved it suddenly becomes viable to support.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

Cartmic wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 20:11
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
And what would you replace it with? What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?
About the first question: I don't think Minetest should be shipped with any game by default. Also, MineClone2 is better than MTG. Again, I won't put anything, it's just to show there are better games
About the second question: that's not my problem. In the long run, MTG has been causing more bad than good, first of all conveying the wrong idea that MTG = MT. If it doesn't get removed, people will keep creating more mods trying to patch it up, so the damage will actually increase. Because they could spend time doing something else.
It's a modding base to be similar to Minecraft, that's what it is. They want to keep it? Fine, but please do remove it by default, and then don't complain people compare MT to MC
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:43
Cartmic wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 20:11
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
And what would you replace it with? What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?
About the first question: I don't think Minetest should be shipped with any game by default. Also, MineClone2 is better than MTG. Again, I won't put anything, it's just to show there are better games
About the second question: that's not my problem. In the long run, MTG has been causing more bad than good, first of all conveying the wrong idea that MTG = MT. If it doesn't get removed, people will keep creating more mods trying to patch it up, so the damage will actually increase. Because they could spend time doing something else.
It's a modding base to be similar to Minecraft, that's what it is. They want to keep it? Fine, but please do remove it by default, and then don't complain people compare MT to MC
The comparison will not be lost, I dunno it feels like it's a bit too late to try and resolve that.
I also disagree that MineClone 2 should replace MTG. Sure, it's better, but that one is literally a minecraft clone. My proposal aims to separate the clone comparison by introducing the mechanics Minecraft literally can't compete with - the biggest onos is the cubic chunks, dynamic liquids, etc.

Additionally, MineClone 2 would require a massive mob api overhaul, because right now mobs are the worst part of MC2

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
see this statement " mod a game to your liking" very first paragraph on the minetest website . tell us what game ? yours ? .
judging by your attitude "must be a complete game" i have very little intrest in an on rails game experience where you dictate your own prefrences.
I have tailored MTG to my prefrences using the wealth of quality mods released by the creators here which i feel derserve far more credit for thier hard work .
that is the essence of an open source engine freedom to modify to your own taste .
your attitude stinks because you want to dictate how people should use the engine instead of giving them a choice . that choice should be a base game with the freedom to do as they please and not be railroaded into playing what you dictate.
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 22:03
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 18:11
As I stated before, imho MTG should be abandoned. It looks like a bad Minecraft clone with less features and it gives Minetest a bad name (and bad advertising). It's not as near as becoming a complete game in the next months, so why bothering? The community can create games on its own, and core devs can spare a lot of time and energies
see this statement " mod a game to your liking" very first paragraph on the minetest website . tell us what game ? yours ? .
judging by your attitude "must be a complete game" i have very little intrest in an on rails game experience where you dictate your own prefrences.
I have tailored MTG to my prefrences using the wealth of quality mods released by the creators here which i feel derserve far more credit for thier hard work .
that is the essence of an open source engine freedom to modify to your own taste .
your attitude stinks because you want to dictate how people should use the engine instead of giving them a choice . that choice should be a base game with the freedom to do as they please and not be railroaded into playing what you dictate.
That gives me a thought, maybe a decent option is to bundle a bunch of the suggested/quality mods as part of MTG you can toggle on/off? Similar to how MTG is built on top of multiple components you can also turn on/off

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:43
. Also, MineClone2 is better than MTG.
you sure about that . I find MC2 to slow paced ,lacks variety and uneventful compared to a modded out MTG . I think you have just played MTG as is hence your aversion
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Crystalwarrior wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 22:04

That gives me a thought, maybe a decent option is to bundle a bunch of the suggested/quality mods as part of MTG you can toggle on/off? Similar to how MTG is built on top of multiple components you can also turn on/off
have you tried dreambuilder got everything in there including the kitchen sink .
rubenwardy did mention user defined packages to download planned as a feature
but was unable to commit himself on what game these were be to used with .
same attiude only wants to promote on rails games not intrested in " mod a game to your liking"
Last edited by cuthbertdoublebarrel on Sat May 16, 2020 01:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Linuxdirk » Post

Cartmic wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 20:11
What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?
I guess most of them do not directly depend on MTG but to one or some of the mods and APIs that come with it.

The problem could be solved by de-coupling them from MTG and offer them individually.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 23:51
Cartmic wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 20:11
What would would happen with all those mods designed for use with MTG?
I guess most of them do not directly depend on MTG but to one or some of the mods and APIs that come with it.

The problem could be solved by de-coupling them from MTG and offer them individually.
so you want MTG gone so that all users are forced to build a game from scratch ?.
why are you so adverse to MTG bieng used as a base for players to build thier own gaming experience ?
I really do not see any problem with that approach .that how other modding communties progress .
omit the word "game" and replace it with "freedom" if the community is so concerned that newbies will mistake it as a fully fledged game .
you know what i think .those complaining are just parroting . , as they have no real answer as to what MTG should be replaced with .. minetest site" mod a game to your liking" now tell us what game ,?
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Linuxdirk » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 01:03
so you want MTG gone so that all users are forced to build a game from scratch ?.
I want MTG not being the default game but instead have a first start tab offering multiple games to select from, including MTG.

If someone wants to play MTG it should be available. But all APIs should be extracted from it and be integrated into Minetest itself.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 22:03
tell us what game ? yours ?
Literally me in the post you quoted: "I don't think Minetest should be shipped with any game by default"
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 22:03
i have very little intrest in an on rails game experience where you dictate your own prefrences.
It's not dictating, it's expressing my own opinions, and I'm entitled to do so as long as I don't break the rules of the board
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 22:03
your attitude stinks because you want to dictate how people should use the engine instead of giving them a choice
Love you too buddy. Also, putting a default game in an engine is the opposite of giving people a choice: think about it
Linuxdirk wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 01:15
If someone wants to play MTG it should be available. But all APIs should be extracted from it and be integrated into Minetest itself.
This, having the community thinking about MTG instead of the core devs
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 08:19
putting a default game in an engine is the opposite of giving people a choice: think about it
I understand your confusion as you keep referring to MTG as a default game and not bieng finished . you seem unaware that creators here have used it as a base to build great games .so now you are trying to deny people that choice by saying it should be removed and force users to develop from scratch . you have the choice not to use MTG and do what ever you please . yet you will deny that same freedom of choice to others by removing MTG .its really none of your concern . if you dont use it then ignore it simple as .
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 01:15
I want MTG not being the default game but instead have a first start tab offering multiple games to select from, including MTG.
" mod a game to your liking" mostly all of the exsisting games do not allow for this
so we have 2 tabs yes moddable and unmoddable ?
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 09:34
Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 08:19
putting a default game in an engine is the opposite of giving people a choice: think about it
I understand your confusion as you keep referring to MTG as a default game and not bieng finished . you seem unaware that creators here have used it as a base to build great games .so now you are trying to deny people that choice by saying it should be removed and force users to develop from scratch . you have the choice not to use MTG and do what ever you please . yet you will deny that same freedom of choice to others by removing MTG .its really none of your concern . if you dont use it then ignore it simple as .
No, I'm saying core devs should stop worrying about it and it should be removed as a default game. I'm not saying to delete it, I'm suggesting to give it the same credit of any other existing game created in Minetest
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:26
No, I'm saying core devs should stop worrying about it and it should be removed as a default game. I'm not saying to delete it, I'm suggesting to give it the same credit of any other existing game created in Minetest
You are missing the whole point by treating it as just another game . it is NOT the same as other exsisting games as many can not be modded to the users taste for example switching the GUI of the inventory as one instance . so we are back to "mod a game to your liking" so agian which game are you going to highlight if MTG is removed and treated just as another game . ?
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by sfan5 » Post

Two github issues on this topic that contain relevant discussion:
  • #3949 Add games that should be bundled with Minetest
  • #9509 Ship MTEngine with no games, choose and install from the Content Database
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:48
You are missing the whole point by treating it as just another game . it is NOT the same as other exsisting games
It's literally called Minetest GAME. But you're right, it's a modding base passed off as a game. Again back to the bad advertising.

A player should not have any game installed at the very first launch, the "blank option" should be the default option, so to pass the message that Minetest is not a game but an engine. As long as you keep by default a modding base that resembles a game done badly, people will keep thinking MTG = MT = bad MC clone. You want something put there by default? Do a VERY minimal game that acts like a tutorial explaining people what they could actually do with MT. Some sort of "Hah, we can do it, Minecraft can't" but without saying it out loud (throwing shit over other products is a stupid idea). And not something that resembles MC in a bad way
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:23
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:48
You are missing the whole point by treating it as just another game . it is NOT the same as other exsisting games
It's literally called Minetest GAME. But you're right, it's a modding base passed off as a game. Again back to the bad advertising
MINETEST
"An open source voxel game engine. Play one of our many games, mod a game to your liking, make your own game, or play on a multiplayer server."

keep it simple, as it says on the tin above
game
base game
dev
multiplayer
You know full well a first time user is going to try out the top rated game first .
if they find the first game entertaining for sure they are going to explore the other features and games . just like you did
. so there is no real problem at all except of your own making is there .
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 14:15
if they find the first game entertaining for sure they are going to explore the other features and games . just like you did.
Well, actually the first time I played it I was bored and disappointed by the default game and I didn't understand it was an engine, as many other people. So I deleted it right away.
I gave it a second chance when I was looking to some free software game to work on, and a week later I finally understood it was not a game and that MTG was not the same as MT.
The point is, I know what an engine is, I've been developing (and playing) games in my free time since I was like 12 (RPG maker, Game Maker, Unity, Godot). And MT doesn't look an engine at all at a first glance
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 18:10
Well, actually the first time I played it I was bored and disappointed by the default game and I didn't understand it was an engine, as many other people. So I deleted it right away.
wakey wakey .the very first thing it states on the main website is "An open source voxel game engine" so many people are not confused about its status as an engine as you so claim. its quiet clearly states that its a game engine .
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 20:52
wakey wakey .the very first thing it states on the main website is "An open source voxel game engine" so many people are not confused about its status as an engine as you so claim. its quiet clearly states that its a game engine .
Actually, according to this post, 8 out of 13 people believe it should be more obvious, 2 don't and 3 weren't so sure . For instance, you can download Minetest from your distro repo and you'd never know. The one on Manjaro states: "Multiplayer infinte-world block sandbox game".

It may be clear for you, but you're not the majority. Also, about the same topic, I asked what people think about MTG and then I rated their answers between 1 and 4, where 1 is "very bad" and 4 is "very good". As for now, we have:

- 4 people believing is really bad
- 6 people believing is bad
- 2 people believing is good
- 1 people believing is very good


So I'm not asking you to trust me, I can't ever be objective as I'm a human being. Yet denying these numbers (where several people deliberately participated) is a horse of a different colour
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Cassumbra » Post

I think the topic of "Keep MTG" and "How to polish MTG" are two different subjects that should have different threads. On that note, does anyone mind if I post some notes/thoughts I had while messing around in MTG?

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