Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Dokimi » Post

Ideas please!

I want to generate some ideas here that might be useful for mod makers, games makers, and developers (e.g. I'd like my game Exile to be as positive an experience as possible).

As a community project Minetest has the potential to do good things here, things that commercial games might not ever do.


Questions:
1) What positives do you see in games?
2) What negatives do you see in games?
3) Which games are best for player welfare, why?
4) Which games are worst for player welfare, why?
5) What features for Minetest could enhance the positives?
6) What features for Minetest could minimize the negatives?

Share your ideas!

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Dokimi » Post

I'll start!


1) What positives do you see in games?
- escapism (in the positive sense) e.g. natural settings can be very calming - listening to rain etc
- education e.g. when it has real world content (history, geography, science etc)
- a place for creativity

2) What negatives do you see in games?
- escapism (in the negative sense). It can be a way of blanking out reality without having anything positive in it.
- "Infinite play". Like "infinite scroll" on websites. Your mind never gets a chance to stop and decide to take a break (this is why I added BreakTaker to Exile).
- "mechanical thinking". e.g. characters become objects that you just use to reach the game objective. You start behaving like a robot.
- repetitive strain problems from too much clicking

3) Which games are best for player welfare, why?
- Minetest of course... ;-). Honestly I haven't found many that are that good, which is why I'd like Minetest be that game.

4) Which games are worst for player welfare, why?
- Paradox games (e.g. Europa Universalis) can be terrible for "Infinite play" problems because they combine it with endless pop-ups that distract you from what you were thinking.

5) What features for Minetest could enhance the positives?
Don't know. That's why I'm asking!

6) What features for Minetest could minimize the negatives?
I'd like to see an auto-dig feature (like autojump). Holding down the mouse for long digging times can create too much repetitive strain.

User avatar
Hume2
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:24
GitHub: Hume2
In-game: Hume2
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Hume2 » Post

1) What positives do you see in games?
Gaming can be relaxing and fun.

2) What negatives do you see in games?
Many games influence kids in a bad way because they promote violence, brutality or bad lifestyle. Other than that, many games lighten or laugh at religious stuff and I will never ignore this issue.
Next thing: payments. The kids don't know the worth of the money they get from their parents. There are cases in which parents go to debt but their kids barely feel anything. I know about two such families. Well, this doesn't have much to do with gaming but the games are making it only worse.
Many games also misuse the weaknesses of human psychology to attract players and get money from them (e.g. Skinner's box effect).
Lastly, scary elements. One can think that it's a nifty but this also has a bad influence on kids. I had a talk with a MINECR~1 player who was always scared in dusk. His scare was definitely related to that game. He also had spots in his MINECR~1 world where he was getting scared. When I played that game, I also used to have such spots but I was old enough so this scare did not escape to the real world.

3) Which games are best for player welfare, why?
The games which are not only relaxing but they can also learn the players something new and they are also free so deleting them doesn't cost anything.

4) Which games are worst for player welfare, why?
MMO-RPGs because they propagate violence and microtransactions. They are also a huge waste of time because they work as a Skinner's box. The rest of features mentioned in (2) are present in vast majority of these games also. Other than that, many of these games use woman models which display ridiciously much bare skin. It is usually not classified as pornography because a few body parts are kept covered but I do think that this should be called pornography also.

5) What features for Minetest could enhance the positives?
I would like to see a non-trivial target. Currently, the best I've seen is building the greatest factory ever but there is no reward for doing that except having the possibility to build even bigger factory.

6) What features for Minetest could minimize the negatives?
If we are talking about MTG in its current state of art, I don't think there are any features mentioned in (2). Just please, do not introduce them.
If you lack the reality, go on a trip or find a job.

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Dokimi » Post

Thanks for your thoughts Hume

Here's some related videos I saw that people might find interesting.

The ethics of exploiting psychological research in video games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVzwxmyeqs (the whole skinner box thing)

Sid Meier (Civilisation) about how he factors psychology into game design
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtzCLd93SyU
...I was old enough so this scare did not escape to the real world...
This is an interesting thought. I was thinking of making part of Exile (underground) very scary. Do people have trouble with scary content? How can it be done well? (e.g. learning to manage fear is part of life)

User avatar
Hume2
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:24
GitHub: Hume2
In-game: Hume2
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Hume2 » Post

Dokimi wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 05:36
The ethics of exploiting psychological research in video games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVzwxmyeqs (the whole skinner box thing)
Thanks for nice video!
...I was old enough so this scare did not escape to the real world...
This is an interesting thought. I was thinking of making part of Exile (underground) very scary. Do people have trouble with scary content? How can it be done well? (e.g. learning to manage fear is part of life)
I think, people have trouble with scary content but they don't want to admit that. If they admited that, they would feel less cool or even embarrassed. So they sometimes search for it and then they can't handle that. In my opinion, if there are elements whose main purpose is being scary, the game should be 18+ like most of horrors are. While we are at it, note that there is a huge difference between scary and bloody. For example, a human can be scared by a tiger which isn't bloody at all. Or you definitely know that some films/games have bloody scenes which aren't scary at all.

EDIT: In short, if you make it so that the scariness isn't the main purpose and there is no blood, it will be way better. I would need to know more details to say more about it.
If you lack the reality, go on a trip or find a job.

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Dokimi » Post

Good thoughts Hume.

A player on the server told me they found the underground in Exile very scary already, and didn't like going there alone. So it is interesting to see other people's perspectives.

Personally I hate horror. I was wanting to use the underground to explore darker emotions (like fear), with the ultimate aim being that the player learns how to overcome them.

Early days though. I have no idea how I'd do it ;-)

Jastiv
New member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 23:58

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jastiv » Post

You have no idea how you would do it huh? I just imagined there was a new minetest game that was super scary called "Underground Exile."

Part of the problem with a lot of horror movies (and some games) is that once you have seen it, it isn't scary anymore because you know when the monster is going to come out. You have to have a certain randomness, and a certain level of unpredictability. I think they is probably a limit on how scary minetest is going to get just because the whole thing is so blocky anyway, you probably won't get much more than pg-13 level horror if that.

A lot of good horror is about tension, and things popping out. But if it is tension all the time, you can sort of get used to it, or if you give too many hints all the time about what is around the corner (the horror) it can sometimes be bad, and sometimes it can increase the tension (like if you hear a certain sound and see certain things when a monster is coming) So it helps to have some "safe" rooms, and then when you venture out of them, there is no telling when or where stuff is going to happen.

I know someone is working on "voxel dungeons" and the random dungeon generator. I would urge people to take a look at the wograld gitcode, feel free to fork it. (I have it on github and gitlab now as well as sourceforge, after something vandelized my project, I am taking more precautions.) Take a look at the network code and the random dungeons, (both ingenious pieces of work that I did not write.)

Jastiv
New member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 23:58

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jastiv » Post

You have no idea how you would do it huh? I just imagined there was a new minetest game that was super scary called "Underground Exile."

Part of the problem with a lot of horror movies (and some games) is that once you have seen it, it isn't scary anymore because you know when the monster is going to come out. You have to have a certain randomness, and a certain level of unpredictability. I think they is probably a limit on how scary minetest is going to get just because the whole thing is so blocky anyway, you probably won't get much more than pg-13 level horror if that.

A lot of good horror is about tension, and things popping out. But if it is tension all the time, you can sort of get used to it, or if you give too many hints all the time about what is around the corner (the horror) it can sometimes be bad, and sometimes it can increase the tension (like if you hear a certain sound and see certain things when a monster is coming) So it helps to have some "safe" rooms, and then when you venture out of them, there is no telling when or where stuff is going to happen.

I know someone is working on "voxel dungeons" and the random dungeon generator. I would urge people to take a look at the wograld gitcode, feel free to fork it. (I have it on github and gitlab now as well as sourceforge, after something vandelized my project, I am taking more precautions.) Take a look at the network code and the random dungeons, (both ingenious pieces of work that I did not write.)

User avatar
Dokimi
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 03:52
GitHub: DokimiCU

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Dokimi » Post

Those are some good ideas for a scary game Jastiv. We are starting to get off topic though :-)

I opened this thread to dig a bit deeper than this usual level of game design, into what might be called the "positive psychology" of games.

e.g. how do we combine your ideas about how to make a scary game with issues raised by Hume about the problems people can have with scary games.

How do we make games that leave people feeling better off? That's the hard question ;-)

cuthbertdoublebarrel
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 16:03
GitHub: cuthbert

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 18:36
Many games influence kids in a bad way because they promote violence, brutality or bad lifestyle.
you seem to have differculty in seperating a gaming experience from reality .kids are pre programmed if they are budding little Psychopaths they are not going to be able to seperate a gaming experience from real life as a well adjusted kid does .
Its not the games that are the problem its the problem kids playing them .
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

ShadMOrdre
Member
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 08:07
GitHub: ShadMOrdre
In-game: shadmordre
Location: USA

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by ShadMOrdre » Post

Dokimi,

On point!

Player welfare should be considered within the context of the the game itself, its purpose, its playability, the actions within the game; as well as, how these concepts can affect the real world behavior of the player.

In this sense, even violent or scary games, depending on the actual content and quality, can and are used in both therapeutic and instructional environments. As such, violence and horror are used to desensitize the user to specific scenarios or events. This is done in PTSD therapy. It is also used in 3D shooter games, for military style training. As such, the use of these games by children or anyone not prepared for the content should be discouraged.

No child is born bad. This is a learned behavior, from the model of the parents and caregivers. Therefore, the empty vessel of a developing child should be steered into more constructive environments.

Games that are educational in nature, and believe me, there are more of these out there than we can discuss, have value. My son has come to like 0AD, an AoE style FOSS game. It has historical content, from which he has learned about ancient empires, history, geography, critical thinking, strategic thinking, resource planning, and the list goes on.

Minetest is almost as much a game of construction as it is a game of (insert mod here). Minecraft is the same. The Lego games also include construction as an element, and this is great for developing minds.

For the typical adult, escapism or general time passing, is the more practical explanation for game play. In this sense, games like Skyrim, GTA, Fallout, and any other 3D world game provide an alternative to reality. They allow us to become even more immersed within a story than a book or movie. The "mindless" candycrush or tetris style games allow us to feel competitive, test our skills, or some other perceived growth, while really just distracting us from the 30 seconds we spend waiting on the barista to make our double skinny supa chupa latte.

Games, in a structured environment, whether competitive play, training, therapy, or classroom, can and should be encouraged, according to the appropriateness of the game and the activity.

Games can be viewed as time wasting, and when left unchecked, just like all other things, can become destructive to the user. Games that contain violence can enduce one to behave, even in very subtle ways, in a more careless and wreckless manner. Play a good round of Battlefield online, let the cheaters get you riled. Only takes an hour or so, and then immediately go interact with some random third party. Observe your own behavior, and analyze how you may have acted differently, had you played a round of catch with your child, instead of the Battlefield, or as the third party after the Battlefield. Had I played catch and then talked to the barista, I'd probably come off as paternal or patronizing, instead of rude and condescending, as I may have after the Battlefield. Had I played catch with my son, after the Battlefield, I might have left my son with an emotional scar....

This is all quantifiable, and therefore, provable. It is why we've condemned certain areas of psych and med experiments.

Does that help some, Dokimi?


Shad
MY MODS: lib_ecology lib_materials lib_clouds lib_node_shapes ---- Inspired By: Open Source Virtual World Simulator Opensimulator.

User avatar
Hume2
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:24
GitHub: Hume2
In-game: Hume2
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Hume2 » Post

ShadMOrdre wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 18:02
In this sense, even violent or scary games, depending on the actual content and quality, can and are used in both therapeutic and instructional environments. As such, violence and horror are used to desensitize the user to specific scenarios or events. This is done in PTSD therapy. It is also used in 3D shooter games, for military style training. As such, the use of these games by children or anyone not prepared for the content should be discouraged.
Therapic usage could justify creating these games but all of these conditions must be satisfied:
  • The game designer is a professional psychologist and he knows what he is doing.
  • The game is designed to heal at least one known psychological disease.
  • If the game is released freely, there is a clearly visible statement that it is supposed to be used for therapies only and it may have severe consequences on human psychology if it is used unwisely.
  • If the game is being sold for money, it should be sold only to therapists. And the therapists should let the people play the game only during therapy and the players should be supervised by the therapists all the time.
Or do you want gaming companies to manipulate with children?

Age limits are commonly used for these games ... but ... how to set the limits? I used to think that these limits are overestimated, now I think that they are underestimated. I doubt they are based on a psychological study. I think, they came from the statement that players of age 18 and above are adults so they can do what they want so they can play any game. And the rest of the age limits is a result of interpolation. However, in my opinion, there are games which should not be played even by adults. The psychology of adults is also vulnerable. Adults should be an example for children after all.
If you lack the reality, go on a trip or find a job.

Jackknife
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 20:07

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jackknife » Post

Personally, the highest rating for a game that I'll play is E 10+, anything higher doesn't interest me.
Anything creative and upbeat that doesn't encourage fighting or having something constantly jump out at me is more something I find appealing.
I've wanted to make a game where it encourages some imagination to get through the level or goal.
That's just something I'll have to do down the road.

ttamttam
New member
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 21:59
GitHub: ttamttamS
IRC: ttamttam
In-game: ttamttam

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by ttamttam » Post

I think it's important to think of a game holistically. If you focus too much on designing a game to be "educational", nobody's going to play it because wikipedia or school is a better way to learn. On the other hand, a game which focuses on just fun can be fine, but the player experience will be exactly that, nothing more.
As for therapeutic games, I think this is fine, and I have to respectfully disagree with Hume2 on this. Game companies already manipulate children (mostly the financial gain of themselves or their sponsors), and it doesn't require a PhD to create something positive, so long as you do your research. The age limits are just a sham organization slapping numbers on games so that the companies that founded them can point and say "see? We are doing things (please don't regulate us)".
As for scary experiences, I think it's great to have some level of terror in a game, depending on your target audience. Fear is like spicy food: Some people just cannot imagine why anyone would ever want to eat something that hurts. Others can't get enough of it. Most people enjoy it in moderation. Jumpscares and gore is generally not helpful, especially for a game that isn't focused on horrror. However, tension created by sound effects, gameplay, and visuals can all be extremely engaging. Yeah some kids will be scared by these games. But that's just kinda what kids do. I remember being terrified by very un-scary things as a kid and while it sucks, part of this growing up is learning your limits, and expanding them.

On to the original question:
1.
* Games can increase empathy: They allow us to walk in another's shoes and see the world from different perspective.
* Games can be an excellent creative outlet.
* Games can be social, the pandemic has made this very clear and being able to *do* something with physically distant friends is amazing.
* Games allow you to explore. Games are a sort of safe space to try new things and experiment. If you mess up or do something horrible, the consequences are limited to in game. On the other hand, if you do something right you get to learn from that as well.
* Games can be educational. Little did I know when I started computer engineering that minecraft had taught me almost an entire course's worth of logical design through redstone. Enough said.
* Games are *a e s t h e t i c*: Sometimes you just want to look at some cool mountains, or feel like your in an old house in a rainstorm, or enjoy some crazy techno colors in non-euclidean space or something.
* Games build and satisfy curiosity: Through exploration or puzzles.
2.
* Games can be exploitative: Microtransactions, highly political imagery presented in a dishonest way (i.e. dev says political game isn't political)
* Games can be bad influences: While I don't that violent video games are turning people violent, I do think that videogames, like all types of communication and art, can influence how people see the world. This can be amazing, but also dangerous. For example, Call of Duty may not turn someone into a shooter, but it may cause them to see things like war as a valiant and endeavor and things like war-crimes as a necessary evil.
Likewise, online gaming communities are often very toxic. While the social aspect can be great, it can also be a source of cyber-(bullying harassment stalking).
* Games are addictive: Maybe not in the medical sense, but the result is still people spending way to much time in the game world and not doing anything else.
3 and 4.
I'm combining these to because games are not strictly good or bad for wellfare. For example:
* Civ series: The civ series is an excellent example of tangential learning, every civ and every unique unit or building has it's own historical page. Yet the game will eat away hours of a day or multiple days. But at least it's games have an end. Which leads us to...
* Factorio: This game destroys lives. It is potently addictive and manages to perfectly scratch player's enjoyment of problem solving and creativity. That being said, this game is incredibly educational, and it doesn't take long before you start learning about logistical pipelines, information buses, efficient design, and resource management.
* Minecraft: I'm using minecraft as the well known example, minetest mostly applies too. This game lives and breathes creativity. The actual game loop is uninspired at best, but it makes up for it by having players make their own fun. It is also educational, at the very basics redstone will teach you about logic, and the building will improve your artistic abillity. Start adding mods and you start learning about resource refinement processes, logistics, energy, chemistry, and more. Minecraft does suffer from mechanical thinking, however, as villagers become vending machines and cows become leather farms. Mechanical thinking can be great with mechanical components but there should be systems in place to encourage empathetic thinking when dealing with living creatures (not that killing a cow to eat is bad (well maybe it is but I'm not vegetarian yet), but shoving them into a 1x1 meter holes with a hundred other cows is).
5.
* Minetest needs a better and more intuitive gui, this doesn't make the positives better but it needs to be said.
* More nodes to be more creative with!
* A wide range of experiences, players should have multiple ways to play and progress, the environment should be dynamic and varied, and there should be plenty of non player entities to interact with (friendly, cute, hostile, scary, confusing, intelligent, dumb, predictable, unpredictable)
6.
* Systems in place to reduce mechanical thinking, maybe animals could have a happiness stat, maybe npcs should be unhappy about the player building in their village. Additionally, these systems not to be unpredictable and complex, to try to prevent mechanical thinking with them. Somebodies going to figure it out and exploit it, and that's cool, but players in general should be discouraged. There should be certain aspects which encourage mechanical thinking, however, such machines, gardens, or buildings.

cuthbertdoublebarrel
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 16:03
GitHub: cuthbert

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

when i was very young I had an aquarium on my window sill .
It did not have pretty pet goldfish or cute turtles .
Instead it was a natural underwater biome generated from the local ponds and slow moving rivers in my local area .

Every couple of days i would catch a small garden worm and snap it in half and drop the pieces carefully into the aquaruim ,so they would fall onto a large flat stone on the gravel bed .
One piece of the worm would writhe and contort , while the other is slowly feeling its way about .

Time passes, the leaking bodily fluids of the worm have now comtaminated the crystal clear water . tiny bits of worm flesh have detached as the worm struggles to escape the watery confines .

The tiny vibrations of the worms death throes and the scent of blood in the water have alerted the underwater dwellers , they begin to stir in the shadows.
The jungle of aquatic vegatation starts to twitch , from the dark caves and cracks of the rocky under water terrain we see strange alien appendages flick out as if to taste the water.
The inhabitants of the underwater biome are starting to stir and they are always very hungry.
The real horror show is about to begin ........The End

The natural world is far too scary for the little snow flake rug rats . you best wrap them in cotton wool and show them pretty pet goldfish and cute turtles . all sheep in survial games must not bleed when you kill them to eat as we must shelter our little darlings from the horrors of the real world. never reveal the true nature of things . the violence of nature itself ,its tricks and traps . its many masks of disguises and acts of subterfuge.

The creatures and what happened in that aquarium has been the source of some of the greatest ever horror scenes created .
Now was it a bad influence on a young childs mind to watch the greatest horror show on earth that has fueled the human imagination and quest for knowledge for generations .
Or should we shield children from the horrors of nature . program them into thinking that the world is all fluffy and cute and leave them unprepared for the harsh horrors of the real world ?
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

Jackknife
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 20:07

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jackknife » Post

Obviously a balance is needed

Jackknife
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 20:07

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jackknife » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 09:22

The natural world is far too scary for the little snow flake rug rats . you best wrap them in cotton wool and show them pretty pet goldfish and cute turtles . all sheep in survial games must not bleed when you kill them to eat as we must shelter our little darlings from the horrors of the real world. never reveal the true nature of things . the violence of nature itself ,its tricks and traps . its many masks of disguises and acts of subterfuge.

The creatures and what happened in that aquarium has been the source of some of the greatest ever horror scenes created .
Now was it a bad influence on a young childs mind to watch the greatest horror show on earth that has fueled the human imagination and quest for knowledge for generations .
Or should we shield children from the horrors of nature . program them into thinking that the world is all fluffy and cute and leave them unprepared for the harsh horrors of the real world ?
Well, video games shouldn’t reflect harsh realities too much, especially when its more for kids.
There’s too many violent games as it stands, so many problems result from it.
Minetest sub games don’t have to be all bloody.
I play games to mentally escape those horrible things in life.
Not everyone wants to be in the middle of it all, all the time.
As an adult I don’t want to be reminded how rotten life can get.
I know how rotten it can be.

User avatar
Hume2
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:24
GitHub: Hume2
In-game: Hume2
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Hume2 » Post

ttamttam wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 23:06
Game companies already manipulate children (mostly the financial gain of themselves or their sponsors),
I didn't say that they don't.
ttamttam wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 23:06
and it doesn't require a PhD to create something positive, so long as you do your research.
Are you willing to undergo a therapy made up by a total amateur given that you don't know anything about it? And would you advise it to the others?
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 09:22
The natural world is far too scary for the little snow flake rug rats . you best wrap them in cotton wool and show them pretty pet goldfish and cute turtles . all sheep in survial games must not bleed when you kill them to eat as we must shelter our little darlings from the horrors of the real world. never reveal the true nature of things . the violence of nature itself ,its tricks and traps . its many masks of disguises and acts of subterfuge.

The creatures and what happened in that aquarium has been the source of some of the greatest ever horror scenes created .
Now was it a bad influence on a young childs mind to watch the greatest horror show on earth that has fueled the human imagination and quest for knowledge for generations .
Or should we shield children from the horrors of nature . program them into thinking that the world is all fluffy and cute and leave them unprepared for the harsh horrors of the real world ?
The real world is already scary enough, as you see. There's no need to invent more scare.
Horrors are way different from this though. The stories in horrors are very unlikely to happen in the reality. Many times, they involve a beast which is either a myth or just a product of author's fantasy.
If you lack the reality, go on a trip or find a job.

ttamttam
New member
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 21:59
GitHub: ttamttamS
IRC: ttamttam
In-game: ttamttam

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by ttamttam » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 20:32
Are you willing to undergo a therapy made up by a total amateur given that you don't know anything about it? And would you advise it to the others?
Hume2:
Thank you for your reply, I would undergo a therapy made by amateurs under certain conditions:

1. It does not seem likely to cause me significant harm, this cannot be proven of course, but some things will obviously make things worse.
2. It is not roundly debunked by professionals.
3. Other people have had positive experiences with it, fewer people have had negative ones.
4. If it isn't working for me, I would stop, I wouldn't go through the entire game just to complete the therapy.

As a friend, I may suggest other people try such a game, but I would not recommend it in a professional sense, as a general statement (i.e everyone should try this game for therapy), and I would give proper disclaimers about me being a total neckbeard who has no professional medical or psychological training.

This also depends on the type of therapy, the game, and the person. For example, someone suffering from non-chronic grief may find playing through a game about dealing with loss therapeutic, while someone who is manic depressive would not likely be helped, at least as far as their condition is concerned, by such a game. Even two people with the same issue may have different responses to said game - just like how different people with the same condition can respond differently to the same therapy.

I think the term "complete amateurs" is slightly misleading. I specified that you would have to do your research. That means doing research on game design particular to the area you are working in. And if you're releasing something to be used explicitly as therapy (not something as art which can be therapeutic), you should be reading medical and psychological journals, and at the very least you should consult a professional before starting and before releasing your game. Ideally consulting multiple professionals and more than twice.

Your position on requiring games to be created with therapeutic professionals in order for them to be deemed therapy is very reasonable. I just think my standards for what constitutes therapy are much lower than yours. Thank you again for the discussion, your question really forced me to think more explicitly about my opinions and what I was trying to get across.

cuthbertdoublebarrel
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 16:03
GitHub: cuthbert

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 20:32

The real world is already scary enough, as you see. There's no need to invent more scare.
Horrors are way different from this though. The stories in horrors are very unlikely to happen in the reality. Many times, they involve a beast which is either a myth or just a product of author's fantasy.
Are they really different ?
how about the story of amelia earhart .
remains were found strewn about as if eaten by wild animals .
only creatures on that island are landcrabs that swarm and devour other creatures alive .
But the most horrific beast of all is neither myth nor fantasy is it .
take for example the true horror story of a young police cadet waiting for an 8 year old at the train station late at night, a 40 mile journey arranged in secret . the cadet had a uniform on under his coat . because every little kid trusts a policeman . I think you are smart enough to work out that beasts intentions .
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

User avatar
Hume2
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 08:24
GitHub: Hume2
In-game: Hume2
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Hume2 » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 17:10
Are they really different ?
how about the story of amelia earhart .
remains were found strewn about as if eaten by wild animals .
only creatures on that island are landcrabs that swarm and devour other creatures alive .
But the most horrific beast of all is neither myth nor fantasy is it .
take for example the true horror story of a young police cadet waiting for an 8 year old at the train station late at night, a 40 mile journey arranged in secret . the cadet had a uniform on under his coat . because every little kid trusts a policeman . I think you are smart enough to work out that beasts intentions .
Horrors are designed to be watched by people while real-world scare isn't. If you placed a camera on faces of the victims you are talking about, you wouldn't get a horror film. Even if you take a horror which doesn't contain any unknown beats, it is still very unlikely to happen to a random person because there are many assumptions to make the plot scary. Sometimes they only overdramatise everything if they have no idea how to make it more scary.
If you lack the reality, go on a trip or find a job.

cuthbertdoublebarrel
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 16:03
GitHub: cuthbert

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Hume2 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 18:23
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 17:10
Are they really different ?
how about the story of amelia earhart .
remains were found strewn about as if eaten by wild animals .
only creatures on that island are landcrabs that swarm and devour other creatures alive .
But the most horrific beast of all is neither myth nor fantasy is it .
take for example the true horror story of a young police cadet waiting for an 8 year old at the train station late at night, a 40 mile journey arranged in secret . the cadet had a uniform on under his coat . because every little kid trusts a policeman . I think you are smart enough to work out that beasts intentions .
Horrors are designed to be watched by people while real-world scare isn't. If you placed a camera on faces of the victims you are talking about, you wouldn't get a horror film. Even if you take a horror which doesn't contain any unknown beats, it is still very unlikely to happen to a random person because there are many assumptions to make the plot scary. Sometimes they only overdramatise everything if they have no idea how to make it more scary.
As I pointed out to you .horrors often originate from real life scenarios and real life characters .
that last true story is not an islolated case . there are many more cases involving those that use a uniform, the power of authority and the postion of trust to prey on children.
how can we warn kids of this danger .? is it possible to make them aware through gameplay ?
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

Jackknife
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 20:07

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by Jackknife » Post

cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 19:04
As I pointed out to you .horrors often originate from real life scenarios and real life characters .
that last true story is not an islolated case . there are many more cases involving those that use a uniform, the power of authority and the postion of trust to prey on children.
how can we warn kids of this danger .? is it possible to make them aware through gameplay ?
I don’t believe there’s a good way to do that without scaring them too much but on the other hand, the parent or guardian should be able to help them out by explaining it to them, but that’s up to them.
I don’t think there is a subtle way to do that through gameplay that I’m aware of.

User avatar
twoelk
Member
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 16:19
GitHub: twoelk
IRC: twoelk
In-game: twoelk
Location: northern Germany

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by twoelk » Post

I really don't mind a well made horror film/story/game
but is horror essential to make a good game?
nope!

do horror elements in a game make it a bad game by default?
nope!

I sometimes do wonder why games need to have monsters, why not just creatures? Creatures that can defend themselves of course, even if it just is running away. - I have been to and lived in many places of nature in the world and have actually never learned of any creature that charges any human on plain sight (well maybe rhinos but that might be their poor eyesight. You are way too close if it can actually see you). If you don't press them most will either ignore you, study you from a safe distance or silently turn away. Beeing hunted by animals is in reality a rather rare thing to happen. It does happen but not as much as most people presume and when it happens there is always a reason. It is never their default behaviour.

The one thing about the endermen in mc that I thought of as rather cool was that they didn't care for the player except if stared at. It was the players behavior that decided.

So I'm still waiting for the well balanced game where nature, including creatures, is not designed to kill the player by default but rather just follows their own agenda which might but just might include having a player for supper when nothing better is around. Just imagine, if you kill all the sheep/deer in a forest the wolf/tiger can starve or consider you as next meal. I think actions should have consequents. That is why for example I thought the barren world concepts such as the justtest, all ocean or some space colony games in minetest where quite challenging and fun. You had to really plan things out to survive with the limited resources.

cuthbertdoublebarrel
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 16:03
GitHub: cuthbert

Re: Enhancing Player Welfare with Good Design

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Jackknife wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 19:16
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 19:04
As I pointed out to you .horrors often originate from real life scenarios and real life characters .
that last true story is not an islolated case . there are many more cases involving those that use a uniform, the power of authority and the postion of trust to prey on children.
how can we warn kids of this danger .? is it possible to make them aware through gameplay ?
I don’t believe there’s a good way to do that without scaring them too much but on the other hand, the parent or guardian should be able to help them out by explaining it to them, but that’s up to them.
I don’t think there is a subtle way to do that through gameplay that I’m aware of.
I am not a parent so can only imagine how differcult it would be trying to explain to a little kid that a policeman can also be a danger. .
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests