Auto-dig

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Eris
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Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

An auto-dig feature is what the engine has been missing for a long time. It could be implemented as a toggle.
I think it would help in situations such as this one: https://content.minetest.net/threads/1138/
The game wants you to mine, and it expects you to spend an excruciatingly long time doing so.
[...]It took a week to test this because the mining was causing serious wrist strain that forced me to stop repeatedly. For the sake of my health I will probably not play this game again[...]
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AiTechEye
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Re: Auto-dig

by AiTechEye » Post

we have auto walk & jump so why not? and we all gets cramp in our fingers, and this lets us skip the most boring jobs.

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Re: Auto-dig

by ROllerozxa » Post

Some server owners would probably throw a temper tantrum if this was implemented...

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Eris
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Re: Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

ROllerozxa wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 14:57
Some server owners would probably throw a temper tantrum if this was implemented...
This is a borderline accessibility setting AFAIC; plus, I don't really see how it could be considered cheating to begin with.
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Astrobe
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Re: Auto-dig

by Astrobe » Post

If you automate digging in a digging game, what remains of the game? Should the feature be called "auto-bore"?

Actually, for some games it won't be a big deal, because they focus on something(s) else. This shows, as the ContentDB suggests as well, that it is mainly a game design problem.

Way before autojump was introduced I mitigated the problem by providing players with some kind of "jetpack". This actually was a core feature of the game and I actually kind of solved the problem before I even noticed it - I only noticed it when I played other games and missed the feature a lot. I still don't use autojump in my game because it is sometimes annoying, and my feature is still relevant even with autojump.

Of course jetpacks (or in my case, levitation) won't fit in any game, but that's not the only solution. For instance, a mod could replace dirt blocks with dirt stairs randomly when players stand after a random time (if a sloped is detected). This way, paths often taken by players become more pleasant - that kind of mimics reality too.

Autowalk is nice because it allows you to checkout or sort your inventory while walking, but I wouldn't use it for actual travels. Again, if your game makes you walk too much, this is likely a game design problem; you've made a "walking simulator". Transports or teleportation are the usual solutions (my game has one transport, a skillshot-based short-range teleportation and a teleportation network).

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Re: Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 08:27
If you automate digging in a digging game, what remains of the game? Should the feature be called "auto-bore"?
Whoever prefers their game do without this, they should be able to disable the feature.
Actually, for some games it won't be a big deal, because they focus on something(s) else. This shows, as the ContentDB suggests as well, that it is mainly a game design problem.
You're saying this should be implemented by the game author, to better suit the style of the game they are making?
I didn't think of that I guess, I agree; I simply suggested a generalized toggle to help with the wrist pain stuff.
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Astrobe
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Re: Auto-dig

by Astrobe » Post

Eris wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 09:50
You're saying this should be implemented by the game author, to better suit the style of the game they are making?
Not really. I am saying that authors should change their game design (or gameplay) if something is boring or annoying. In the thread you quoted, the author admitted that he "needed" long digging times, because he wanted slowdown player progress. In other words, he went too far with the grinding.

There are a lot of solutions for this: make the ores more sparse (but with uniform distribution), make lighting more difficult (more expensive torches or torches with a lifespan for instance)... Maybe combine with ore detection or digging machines, as long as they add something to the game; that's a great opportunity if you are wanting to insert mini-games.

But in my eyes, automatic digging in a mining game is sort of like an oxymoron.

As for wrist pain, I have hundreds of hours digging without mese, mythril, lava or whatever ridiculously fast picks. Also, my day job has been programmer for more than a decade. Also, I'm left-handed in a right-handed world who often forget we exist. The only times I had this problem is when I had a poor sitting position (or used software with really terrible default keybindings, such as Emacs). I'd recommend to look for an IRL fix rather than an in-game fix for that issue.

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Re: Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 13:06
Eris wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 09:50
You're saying this should be implemented by the game author, to better suit the style of the game they are making?
In other words, he went too far with the grinding.

There are a lot of solutions for this: make the ores more sparse (but with uniform distribution), make lighting more difficult (more expensive torches or torches with a lifespan for instance)... Maybe combine with ore detection or digging machines, as long as they add something to the game; that's a great opportunity if you are wanting to insert mini-games.
Thanks for the insights; your solutions are clearly superior, in that they don't require any engine changes.
However, Wuzzy seems OK with that tradeoff for their game, as many other game authors might be. This is simply another, more generalized approach.
But in my eyes, automatic digging in a mining game is sort of like an oxymoron.
Of course, if a player were to be allowed the complete automation while going to their mine, when selecting the right tools for mining, when lighting up the caves, when responding to possible threats, etc... it would stop being part of the gameplay entirely; but this is not what I'm proposing, let alone it being waaay too complex to ever implement.
As for wrist pain, I have hundreds of hours digging without mese, mythril, lava or whatever ridiculously fast picks. Also, my day job has been programmer for more than a decade. Also, I'm left-handed in a right-handed world who often forget we exist. The only times I had this problem is when I had a poor sitting position (or used software with really terrible default keybindings, such as Emacs). I'd recommend to look for an IRL fix rather than an in-game fix for that issue.
Hmmm, yeah I agree; I personally never encountered severe problems with this in Minetest, and your arguments are definitely valid.
Last edited by Eris on Tue May 31, 2022 17:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Astrobe
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Re: Auto-dig

by Astrobe » Post

Eris wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 06:41
Of course, if a player were to be allowed the complete automation while going to their mine, when selecting the right tools for mining, when lighting up the caves, when responding to possible threats, etc... it would stop being part of the gameplay entirely; but this is not what I'm proposing, let alone it being waaay too complex to ever implement.
It's pleasant to to talk with someone open to discussion. If that feature can be blocked then it's ok. Sometimes features actually restrict what you can do as a game designer, like the minimap (e.g. making mazes is pointless) or debug coordinates. And also point out to them that sometimes the easy solutions are the best, sometimes they "hide" better solutions.

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Re: Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

Astrobe wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 10:24
Eris wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 06:41
Of course, if a player were to be allowed the complete automation while going to their mine, when selecting the right tools for mining, when lighting up the caves, when responding to possible threats, etc... it would stop being part of the gameplay entirely; but this is not what I'm proposing, let alone it being waaay too complex to ever implement.
It's pleasant to to talk with someone open to discussion. If that feature can be blocked then it's ok. Sometimes features actually restrict what you can do as a game designer, like the minimap (e.g. making mazes is pointless) or debug coordinates. And also point out to them that sometimes the easy solutions are the best, sometimes they "hide" better solutions.
Yeah, Minetest is all about simplicity as well. I'm glad I could explain myself better, have a nice day! ^^
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Re: Auto-dig

by Dokimi » Post

Auto-dig is a feature I've wanted for a while (genetics has cursed me with a particular sensitivity to wrist issues).

I agree this is partly a question of game design (in Exile I deliberately made certain nodes un-diggable to avoid long digging times), also people do have responsibility for their own health. However, a significant amount of excess strain remains even after both are done well (at least for some of us). It does become an accessibility issue.

Here's the design considerations...

Digging as a mechanic is something like this:

Player input -> delay time -> receive item

Much gameplay balance focuses on changing the length of that delay time.

Default implementation is like this:

Continuous player input for entire delay time -> receive item [interruption of input restarts timer]

Long time delays are often necessary to game design. But that continuous part is what causes wrist strain.


Here's how an "auto-dig" implementation might look, that preserves game balance:

Double click on block -> digging animations etc play for length of delay time -> receive item [looking away from block restarts timer.]

Continuous input is swapped out for a double click. Significantly reduces wrist strain. Has zero effect on game balance (of course, implementing stuff like this always throws up issues, but in principle this should work).


(In contrast a game breaking auto-dig would be something like: Press E to autodig. Go have a coffee while your avatar burrows to the center of the universe.)

When it comes to accessibility issues the rule of thumb is "Reasonable Accommodation". If someone makes a good faith request for an accommodation that allows them access, then a positive obligation exists to provide that accommodation - if it is feasible to do so (i.e. a reasonable accommodation).

Issues like this can seem trivial, but disability discrimination is often a case of death by a thousand cuts.

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Re: Auto-dig

by revevil » Post

That is kind of like the woodcutting mod where you shift-click the bottom node of the tree, and it cuts the whole thing down for you. I can't go back to the old way. Ever since I got hooked on the automatic method, its hard to want to go back and chop every last node yourself.

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Re: Auto-dig

by Eris » Post

Dokimi wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 03:20
Auto-dig is a feature I've wanted for a while (genetics has cursed me with a particular sensitivity to wrist issues).

I agree this is partly a question of game design (in Exile I deliberately made certain nodes un-diggable to avoid long digging times), also people do have responsibility for their own health. However, a significant amount of excess strain remains even after both are done well (at least for some of us). It does become an accessibility issue.

Here's the design considerations...

Digging as a mechanic is something like this:

Player input -> delay time -> receive item

Much gameplay balance focuses on changing the length of that delay time.

Default implementation is like this:

Continuous player input for entire delay time -> receive item [interruption of input restarts timer]

Long time delays are often necessary to game design. But that continuous part is what causes wrist strain.


Here's how an "auto-dig" implementation might look, that preserves game balance:

Double click on block -> digging animations etc play for length of delay time -> receive item [looking away from block restarts timer.]

Continuous input is swapped out for a double click. Significantly reduces wrist strain. Has zero effect on game balance (of course, implementing stuff like this always throws up issues, but in principle this should work).


(In contrast a game breaking auto-dig would be something like: Press E to autodig. Go have a coffee while your avatar burrows to the center of the universe.)

When it comes to accessibility issues the rule of thumb is "Reasonable Accommodation". If someone makes a good faith request for an accommodation that allows them access, then a positive obligation exists to provide that accommodation - if it is feasible to do so (i.e. a reasonable accommodation).

Issues like this can seem trivial, but disability discrimination is often a case of death by a thousand cuts.
Oh nice! Please, open an issue on GitHub if you want to. I deleted my account there as I don't want to have to deal with it. >.<
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Re: Auto-dig

by c56 » Post

what about auto build as well could be liek the filler tool mod ?
this is a signature not a place to post messages also if i could change my username i would change it to sell_her_on55

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