Lava is no longer renewable!?

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

the real problem is if it was a minor change then why was it changed in the first place
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
Inocudom
Member
Posts: 3098
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 01:14
IRC: Inocudom
In-game: Inocudom

by Inocudom » Post

0gb.us wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.
It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.
In other words, you want stone to not be renewable as well?
jojoa1997 wrote:
Menche wrote:Why is obsidian so tough? Real life obsidian is a type of glass; I think obsidian should have the toughness of normal glass.
pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.
I think PilzAdam is trying to turn the game into Minecraft. Although ironically, I think he still doesn't play that game.
With the idea I suggested, the new stone could be crafted or cooked into normal stone. Obsidian could also be turned back into lava by cooking it.
Last edited by Inocudom on Mon Mar 18, 2013 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
You can now find my videos at BitChute: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/some_cheeky_jinuskian/

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

jojoa1997 wrote:the real problem is if it was a minor change then why was it changed in the first place
Exactly. If it was so minor, just change it back to the way no one complains about. I have never once heard anyone complain that a resource is renewable, but I have heard people complain that resources are not renewable or that they are too rare.
10twenty4 wrote:I think all these complaints can be addressed with 2 words: modding api

Seriously, everything here can be easily fixed with a mod, and thanks to there being an api modding is easy as s**t (what's the stance here on swearing? I feel stupid starring it out but I'd rather not get filtered or banned).

These complaints are minor enough that I don't think they'd warrant changes to the source, but if you want them mod them.
This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.

EDIT: Minetest_game is an example for others to build off of. So it should be a quality example.
Last edited by 0gb.us on Mon Mar 18, 2013 00:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

Inocudom wrote:
0gb.us wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.
It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.
In other words, you want stone to not be renewable as well?
jojoa1997 wrote:pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.
I think PilzAdam is trying to turn the game into Minecraft. Although ironically, I think he still doesn't play that game.
With the idea I suggested, the new stone could be crafted or cooked into normal stone. Obsidian could also be turned back into lava by cooking it.
that is stupid. what is the point of having obsidian if anything have obsidian glass turn back into lava
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
Inocudom
Member
Posts: 3098
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 01:14
IRC: Inocudom
In-game: Inocudom

by Inocudom » Post

The obsidian shards could be melted in a furnace and turned into obsidian glass. Obsidian glass could be broken into obsidian shards and those shards could be crafted back into obsidian blocks. Come to think of it, normal glass could have a way of being turned back into sand.
Last edited by Inocudom on Mon Mar 18, 2013 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
You can now find my videos at BitChute: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/some_cheeky_jinuskian/

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

that is what happens
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

0gb.us wrote:It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
while this is true to a point, with the scale maps are currently on, it would take a single person many, many years to completely run out of a non-renewable source. Even a serverful would still take a while, unless certain mods like Technic were used. Tell me, have you actually run out of resources yet, or are you just afraid of a possibility that might happen many years in the future, in a fictional world that can be reset and modified as needed?
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
Your fallacy is assuming that non-renewibility 'takes away' from the game. To me, part of the appeal is the adventure of having to venture farther out to obtain new materials. I don't see the fun in setting up a little infinitely regenerating factory to build my legos with; if I want to build, I use creative mode. So to me, what you want would take away from minetest_game.

Which is why it's so great that Minetest is both open source and easily moddable, because we can both win. It would be easier to mod infinite lava in than it would to take it out, so I believe it would be better to keep it out.

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

. It would be easier to mod infinite lava in than it would to take it out
what you are saying is it would be easier to keep it in right there.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

Sokomine
Member
Posts: 4184
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 17:31
GitHub: Sokomine

by Sokomine » Post

Papyrus is something that has gotten very hard to get on Redcrabs server, forcing people to roam around further and further from spawn just to look out for it - in regions where building something currently equivalents building in singleplayer mode because no one's ever going to drop by (except through a bug). So this ressource already is a problem. There are several mods that can help there.
A list of my mods can be found here.

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

On 0gb.US's server you have to walk far from spawn just to find unclaim land to dig a tree. Now if you were there when it started built near the middle then you are tough out of luck. Also with vanilla and only interact and shout it takes a long and boring while to get places. When I am going to far ppaces I watch the irc chat or a youtube video because it is like ugh when will the road end.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

Sokomine wrote:Papyrus is something that has gotten very hard to get on Redcrabs server, forcing people to roam around further and further from spawn just to look out for it - in regions where building something currently equivalents building in singleplayer mode because no one's ever going to drop by (except through a bug). So this ressource already is a problem. There are several mods that can help there.
I agree there should be renewable stuff. Papyrus should grow so people can get more.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

yo Jojo, are you aware you can edit your posts? Especially when you're replying to multpile quotes at once, it'll help you cut down on the number of posts you have to make.

User avatar
prestidigitator
Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:54

by prestidigitator » Post

If it's not renewable, why not also switch off "buildable_to"? Wouldn't that help solve part of the problem? It seems like it would be tricky to build anything in a pool of lava anyway. Heh.

If there's a problem with the lava -> obsidian conversion and lack of conservation, perhaps a recipe could be developed for converting back the other way. For example, perhaps putting obsidian and a bucket in a special type of furnace could produce a bucket of lava. (Of course, this gets back to that point of the modding API being an easy fix for any of this, unless we include that special furnace or whatever it is in the default game.)

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

10twenty4 wrote:yo Jojo, are you aware you can edit your posts? Especially when you're replying to multpile quotes at once, it'll help you cut down on the number of posts you have to make.
you know how hard it is to cut stuff when replying to multiple posts on a tablet. It is near impossible even when I have my keyboard hooked up and currently I don't.
prestidigitator wrote:If it's not renewable, why not also switch off "buildable_to"? Wouldn't that help solve part of the problem? It seems like it would be tricky to build anything in a pool of lava anyway. Heh.

If there's a problem with the lava -> obsidian conversion and lack of conservation, perhaps a recipe could be developed for converting back the other way. For example, perhaps putting obsidian and a bucket in a special type of furnace could produce a bucket of lava. (Of course, this gets back to that point of the modding API being an easy fix for any of this, unless we include that special furnace or whatever it is in the default game.)
how about melt obsidian glass and get lava. Or melt obsidian and get 2 lava since solids are more dense than liquids. That kinda solves the no infinite lava problem and voices you lava source without a bucket which we could use in cooking.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

jojoa1997 wrote:you know how hard it is to cut stuff when replying to multiple posts on a tablet. It is near impossible even when I have my keyboard hooked up and currently I don't.
Understood

User avatar
prestidigitator
Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:54

by prestidigitator » Post

0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
I kind of disagree with the assertion that minetest_game is the, "main game," or even, "matters the most." The whole point of the game IMO is that it is very easy to modify and extend. I'm sorry but playing without any mods installed is so simple and plain and boring you might as well just do everything in creative mode, which negates the whole argument about resource renewal or conservation anyway.

I think it is more useful to approach the design decision from the point of view of how difficult the behavior is to change and whether mods are likely to step all over each other in an attempt to fix something many authors see as broken. What about having minetest_game check for a configuration setting like "renewable_lava", when registering the nodes, and default to the current behavior if the setting isn't found?
Last edited by prestidigitator on Mon Mar 18, 2013 01:59, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

prestidigitator wrote:
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
I kind of disagree with the assertion that minetest_game is the, "main game," or even, "matters the most." The whole point of the game IMO is that it is very easy to modify and extend. I'm sorry but playing without any mods installed is so simple and plain and boring you might as well just do everything in creative mode, which negates the whole argument about resource renewal or conservation anyway.

I think it is more useful to approach the design decision from the point of view of how difficult the behavior is to change and whether mods are likely to step all over each other in an attempt to fix something many authors see as broken. What about having minetest_game check for a configuration setting like "renewable_lava", when registering the nodes, and default to the current behavior if the setting isn't found?
that is better. It Would satisfy me if this was implemented. Maybe you could have both water and lava do that.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

10twenty4 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
while this is true to a point, with the scale maps are currently on, it would take a single person many, many years to completely run out of a non-renewable source. Even a serverful would still take a while, unless certain mods like Technic were used. Tell me, have you actually run out of resources yet, or are you just afraid of a possibility that might happen many years in the future, in a fictional world that can be reset and modified as needed?
Your solution seems to be "expand the map more if you need more resources". As I said, that needlessly wastes hard drive space.

A world that can be reset as "needed" is no fun to play on, as you will lose you creations. There is no intensive to play on a world like that.

No, stone an lava have not run out in my world yet. Although, I do use lava for lighting, and having to carry a few hundred buckets of lava back and forth would be a real pain. With renewable lava, I can fill my lava lighting trenches with no more than one or two buckets, and without running back and forth between my creation and a lava cave.
10twenty4 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
Your fallacy is assuming that non-renewibility 'takes away' from the game. To me, part of the appeal is the adventure of having to venture farther out to obtain new materials. I don't see the fun in setting up a little infinitely regenerating factory to build my legos with; if I want to build, I use creative mode. So to me, what you want would take away from minetest_game.

Which is why it's so great that Minetest is both open source and easily moddable, because we can both win. It would be easier to mod infinite lava in than it would to take it out, so I believe it would be better to keep it out.
Non-renewability does not detract from short-lived worlds, but it DOES detract from long lived worlds. "Mods" don't fix problems in minetest_game, they create a custom version of the game to play in. If you want "mods" to be the answer, how about we put renewable lava back into the game, and you can remove it with a "mod". It is just as easy to add with one as it is to remove with one.
prestidigitator wrote:If it's not renewable, why not also switch off "buildable_to"? Wouldn't that help solve part of the problem? It seems like it would be tricky to build anything in a pool of lava anyway. Heh.

If there's a problem with the lava -> obsidian conversion and lack of conservation, perhaps a recipe could be developed for converting back the other way. For example, perhaps putting obsidian and a bucket in a special type of furnace could produce a bucket of lava. (Of course, this gets back to that point of the modding API being an easy fix for any of this, unless we include that special furnace or whatever it is in the default game.)
One problem is that you can build in the lava, which makes the lava forever disappear, but when you remove the node you placed, the lava doesn't come back. It makes no sense. The lava wasn't displaced somewhere, it just vanished or something. Flipping buildable_to is not a great solution, but it would at least fix that bug. A better solution would be to just make lava renewable again.
prestidigitator wrote:
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
I kind of disagree with the assertion that minetest_game is the, "main game," or even, "matters the most." The whole point of the game IMO is that it is very easy to modify and extend. I'm sorry but playing without any mods installed is so simple and plain and boring you might as well just do everything in creative mode, which negates the whole argument about resource renewal or conservation anyway.

I think it is more useful to approach the design decision from the point of view of how difficult the behavior is to change and whether mods are likely to step all over each other in an attempt to fix something many authors see as broken. What about having minetest_game check for a configuration setting like "renewable_lava", when registering the nodes, and default to the current behavior if the setting isn't found?
Let me rephrase. Minetest_game is just that. A full, complete game. It should be usable as such If you want to add "mods", go for it. But it should be fully functional even without them.

Creative mode does not at all negate my argument. Creative mode makes everything have no value, as it takes no effort to get anything. It should take effort, but a non-creative world should still be sustainable indefinitely.

And some of us don't find minetest_game to be boring. Personally, my main complaints about minetest_game have nothing to do with boredom, and everything to do with either lack of sustainability or lack of ability to prevent vandals from destroying your creations. Renewability is something we can fix though, in a non-hacky way. I have yet to see a GOOD solution to vandals yet, but that's another topic for another time.

If by "current behaviour", you mean the behaviour of the current stable version, the setting thing sounds fine to me. But lava should be renewable by default. If non-renewable lava is wanted, it should be explicitly set with that setting.

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

0gb.us wrote:Let me rephrase. Minetest_game is just that. A full, complete game. It should be usable as such If you want to add "mods", go for it. But it should be fully functional even without them.
Minetest is mostly functional, except for some graphical tweaks and some parts of the api. However, it's wrong to think of it as a "complete" game. The fact that virtually all of the default items, including lava, are part of the "default" mod should clue you in that this is a game designed from the ground up for modding it to your playstyle. The default is meant as a sampler, an example of what Minetest has to offer, while providing some basic objects to play with. If you don't like the sampler, mod your own. In fact, I'm doing just that. I hate how default Minetest/craft 'survival' mode is just a more grindy creative, so I'm trying to create a survival mod that makes the game genuinely challenging.
0gb.us wrote:Creative mode does not at all negate my argument. Creative mode makes everything have no value, as it takes no effort to get anything. It should take effort, but a non-creative world should still be sustainable indefinitely.
What you view as effort, I view as dull grinding. Sure there's time spent, but there's no real work in gathering supplies, just a grind (and not the fun kind like in some rpgs). The fun of creative is in the design of your creations, not their purpose or the gathering of their materials. Survival is about their functionality.

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

10twenty4 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:Let me rephrase. Minetest_game is just that. A full, complete game. It should be usable as such If you want to add "mods", go for it. But it should be fully functional even without them.
Minetest is mostly functional, except for some graphical tweaks and some parts of the api. However, it's wrong to think of it as a "complete" game. The fact that virtually all of the default items, including lava, are part of the "default" mod should clue you in that this is a game designed from the ground up for modding it to your playstyle. The default is meant as a sampler, an example of what Minetest has to offer, while providing some basic objects to play with. If you don't like the sampler, mod your own. In fact, I'm doing just that. I hate how default Minetest/craft 'survival' mode is just a more grindy creative, so I'm trying to create a survival mod that makes the game genuinely challenging.
0gb.us wrote:Creative mode does not at all negate my argument. Creative mode makes everything have no value, as it takes no effort to get anything. It should take effort, but a non-creative world should still be sustainable indefinitely.
What you view as effort, I view as dull grinding. Sure there's time spent, but there's no real work in gathering supplies, just a grind (and not the fun kind like in some rpgs). The fun of creative is in the design of your creations, not their purpose or the gathering of their materials. Survival is about their functionality.
I actually am working on my own game (0gb.us_game), used on the 0gb.us:30000 server. So I know other games can be used. But I disagree that minetest_game should be treated as incomplete. If it truly is incomplete, it should be made complete.

Things being in the default plugin doesn't mean the game isn't complete. I don't understand your logic on that. The default of something should always be functional, always a finished product. Why should it not be?

Without effort, there is no value. For example, one thing I like to do is build treasuries and fill them with valuables. But in creative mode, there are no such thing as valuables. You can build really cool structures, which do have value, but they have much less value, as you just pulled the materials used to make them out of thin air. And poptart cat shrines mean so much more when you have to actually chance upon or hunt down a cat before you can build them. In creative mode, potart cats are everywhere, completely removing the awe of actually seeing one. Although, I see why you would think of it as mind-numbing grinding.

-=-

One thing I notice is that no one seems to support lava being finite. Some people want old lava back, some people don't care, and some people suggest plugins or custom games to fix the issue. But no one is supporting the change of lava to being finite. Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

0.gb.us wrote:Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I'm actually neutral to the whole proposition, I just dislike your personal opinions.

Benefits: it can't be used as much to grief. It still can, but not infinitely.

It makes lava, and by extension obsidian, a rarity. This makes obsidian valuable.

Consider, how many other materials are renewable? Wood is, cobblestone is but grass and sand aren't infinite. There's only a finite amount of coal, iron, mese. Why should lava be renewable when these aren't? Sure it's physically similar to water which is renewable. But water isn't consumed to create valuable materials, either.

User avatar
prestidigitator
Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:54

by prestidigitator » Post

0gb.us wrote:One thing I notice is that no one seems to support lava being finite. Some people want old lava back, some people don't care, and some people suggest plugins or custom games to fix the issue. But no one is supporting the change of lava to being finite. Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I am considering the possibilities and making up my mind, personally; also trying to figure out if it matters. I haven't even tried the finite liquids yet. The suggestions I have made are because I see that there are people dissatisfied with both the old and the new solutions, so I voiced possibilities I thought might help bridge the gap.

User avatar
ungali
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 22:05
IRC: ungali
In-game: ungali
Location: Canada

by ungali » Post

I rather like things the way they are. I have some creative worlds which will die because of this.
Last edited by ungali on Mon Mar 18, 2013 04:08, edited 1 time in total.
Minetest needs better music. And puppies.

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

prestidigitator wrote:
0gb.us wrote:One thing I notice is that no one seems to support lava being finite. Some people want old lava back, some people don't care, and some people suggest plugins or custom games to fix the issue. But no one is supporting the change of lava to being finite. Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I am considering the possibilities and making up my mind, personally; also trying to figure out if it matters. I haven't even tried the finite liquids yet. The suggestions I have made are because I see that there are people dissatisfied with both the old and the new solutions, so I voiced possibilities I thought might help bridge the gap.
when you have a 2*2 and you fill it up with lava usually like 10 buckets you get 4 sources. Then you take a source and can't get the rest.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

10twenty4 wrote:
0.gb.us wrote:Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I'm actually neutral to the whole proposition, I just dislike your personal opinions.

Benefits: it can't be used as much to grief. It still can, but not infinitely.

It makes lava, and by extension obsidian, a rarity. This makes obsidian valuable.

Consider, how many other materials are renewable? Wood is, cobblestone is but grass and sand aren't infinite. There's only a finite amount of coal, iron, mese. Why should lava be renewable when these aren't? Sure it's physically similar to water which is renewable. But water isn't consumed to create valuable materials, either.
Actually, I'd rather the game transition to make more things renewable, not less. I think most things should be. Papyrus and clay get cleaned out of a map fairly quickly. Once I find a good non-hacky way, I'd like to submit a pull request to implement that.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cuthbertdoublebarrel and 2 guests