Lava is no longer renewable!?

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

lord_james wrote:Really? I think developers of minetest MUST do everything they think is right for minetest_game and add a lot of features in minetest. It's their game, so they can make all they want. If you don't like at all (for example, I don't like obsidian) create a new fork of the game. Both proyects will feed each other and it'll be better.
Hey, I usually sit back and ignore the changes I don't like. It's only when things go particularly badly that I even complain. While there have been several changes I don't exactly agree with, I have only complained about two of them, this being the second. It's not like I'm trying to mold the default game into my vision or something. A fork doesn't fix this (although I have used my own fork, 0gb.us_game, for some time now).

EDIT:
PilzAdam wrote:
lord_james wrote:Really? I think developers of minetest MUST do everything they think is right for minetest_game and add a lot of features in minetest. It's their game, so they can make all they want. If you don't like at all (for example, I don't like obsidian) create a new fork of the game. Both proyects will feed each other and it'll be better.
Exactly. We cant make a game that suits everyones wishes. Its simply not possible.
So I focus on what I think makes a good game.
Of course I listen to others, and are open to suggestions. And I also dont simply do everything that comes to my mind. I try to make a good game for many people not just for myself.
Finite lava is NOT a good thing in any way though.
Last edited by 0gb.us on Tue Mar 19, 2013 22:01, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kaeza
Moderator
Posts: 2162
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 05:00
GitHub: kaeza
IRC: kaeza diemartin blaaaaargh
In-game: kaeza
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
Contact:

by kaeza » Post

0gb.us wrote:
kaeza wrote:EDIT: I'm getting really sick of everyone bitching for small things.
EDIT2: With this method, you don't have to worry about updating minetest_game; it will make lava renewable whether or not it was renewable before.
The issue isn't about what arbitrary things the API is capable of, or what custom games can be used. This is about what is going on in the default game. I'm getting sick of people pushing "add 'mods'", when that doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.
Everyone that is bitching about non-renewable lava should just modify it in their server's minetest_game or whatever_game. My point is that you changed both your signature and your location ("From") to protest for this thing.

You are spending more time debating this stupidly small change than the time it takes to modify liquid_renewable to true in default/init.lua and/or creating a mod as I just posted to not worry about that.

All in all, I +1 to non-renewable lava, because the point is in conservation of resources. You complain about finite lava, but do not complain about the fact that Mese, or even iron is more rare than lava.

The only point I see in your complaints is that you are too lazy to go look for lava elsewhere.

P.S.: Fun fact: dirt is not renewable, and is one of the most rare materials (because it only spawns on the surface.
Your signature is not the place for a blog post. Please keep it as concise as possible. Thank you!

Check out my stuff! | Donations greatly appreciated! PayPal

User avatar
RealBadAngel
Member
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 16:30

by RealBadAngel » Post

kaeza wrote:
0gb.us wrote:
kaeza wrote:EDIT: I'm getting really sick of everyone bitching for small things.
EDIT2: With this method, you don't have to worry about updating minetest_game; it will make lava renewable whether or not it was renewable before.
The issue isn't about what arbitrary things the API is capable of, or what custom games can be used. This is about what is going on in the default game. I'm getting sick of people pushing "add 'mods'", when that doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.
Everyone that is bitching about non-renewable lava should just modify it in their server's minetest_game or whatever_game. My point is that you changed both your signature and your location ("From") to protest for this thing.

You are spending more time debating this stupidly small change than the time it takes to modify liquid_renewable to true in default/init.lua and/or creating a mod as I just posted to not worry about that.

All in all, I +1 to non-renewable lava, because the point is in conservation of resources. You complain about finite lava, but do not complain about the fact that Mese, or even iron is more rare than lava.

The only point I see in your complaints is that you are too lazy to go look for lava elsewhere.

P.S.: Fun fact: dirt is not renewable, and is one of the most rare materials (because it only spawns on the surface.
With technic dirt is renewable thx to grinder ;)

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

kaeza wrote:
0gb.us wrote:
kaeza wrote:EDIT: I'm getting really sick of everyone bitching for small things.
EDIT2: With this method, you don't have to worry about updating minetest_game; it will make lava renewable whether or not it was renewable before.
The issue isn't about what arbitrary things the API is capable of, or what custom games can be used. This is about what is going on in the default game. I'm getting sick of people pushing "add 'mods'", when that doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.
Everyone that is bitching about non-renewable lava should just modify it in their server's minetest_game or whatever_game. My point is that you changed both your signature and your location ("From") to protest for this thing.

You are spending more time debating this stupidly small change than the time it takes to modify liquid_renewable to true in default/init.lua and/or creating a mod as I just posted to not worry about that.

All in all, I +1 to non-renewable lava, because the point is in conservation of resources. You complain about finite lava, but do not complain about the fact that Mese, or even iron is more rare than lava.

The only point I see in your complaints is that you are too lazy to go look for lava elsewhere.

P.S.: Fun fact: dirt is not renewable, and is one of the most rare materials (because it only spawns on the surface.
Modifying my local copy DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. The problem pertains to what is going on BY DEFAULT.

Renewable mese was never available. Renewable lava WAS, but that was TAKEN FROM US. I'm just trying to get it back.

Also, I know very well dirt is rare. People always tell me it's far more common than iron and mese, but that is a blatant lie. All non-renewable surface materials are pretty rare.

Also, I have been searching for a believable and not-too-easy way to renew all non-cat non-rainbow materials. Since I haven't come up with anything on the iron and mese front yet, there's nothing to try to fix. My guess is that one day, enemies will be added back to the game. At that point, I'll put in a pull request to make the stronger ones sometimes drop rare materials, making them renewable without being too easy to get. But that is an entirely different topic. I just bring it up to show I'm not being inconsistent.

User avatar
kaeza
Moderator
Posts: 2162
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 05:00
GitHub: kaeza
IRC: kaeza diemartin blaaaaargh
In-game: kaeza
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay
Contact:

by kaeza » Post

Okay, so you are saying that the people that are OK with this change need to create a mod to make lava finite, instead of having it by default? Perhaps a poll will help resolve this discussion, by asking the community what should be the default behavior.

PS: I won't continue with this mindless discussion, as both you and I know that we are not changing our minds on this issue.
Your signature is not the place for a blog post. Please keep it as concise as possible. Thank you!

Check out my stuff! | Donations greatly appreciated! PayPal

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

kaeza wrote:Okay, so you are saying that the people that are OK with this change need to create a mod to make lava finite, instead of having it by default? Perhaps a poll will help resolve this discussion, by asking the community what should be the default behavior.

PS: I won't continue with this mindless discussion, as both you and I know that we are not changing our minds on this issue.
i think the solution rarkenin posted aerlier would be awsome
rarkenin wrote:Compromise:

What about having infinite lava springs deep underground, which can be used to get a bucketful of lava. A new tool is made that can pick up these infinite sources(something like a mese bucket) and drop them off where needed. They then give off infinite lava at their new location. Lava is not renewable with simply 2 lava sources near a third, but can be obtained infinitely using a source which can be moved around as needed, using a valuable tool.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
rarkenin
Member
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 20:48

by rarkenin » Post

Yeah. I feel as that solution would be reasonable. While I support the former more, I;m also open to adding a configuration option for lava behavior.
Admin pro tempore on 0gb.us:30000. Ask me if you have a problem, or just want help.
This is a signature virus. Add me to your signature so that I can multiply.
Now working on my own clone, Mosstest.
I guess I'm back for some time.

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

Another solution might be to have infinite lava at the bottom of the world. That way, you really have to work to get to it. Of course, that would have to wait until the edges are stabilized, and bad things no longer happen there.
kaeza wrote:Okay, so you are saying that the people that are OK with this change need to create a mod to make lava finite, instead of having it by default? Perhaps a poll will help resolve this discussion, by asking the community what should be the default behavior.

PS: I won't continue with this mindless discussion, as both you and I know that we are not changing our minds on this issue.
Hey, I have to fight for what I think is right. If I lose, I haven't really lost any more than if I didn't try. But if I don't even try, I'll regret it later. And hey, there's a slim chance I might even win, and get lava set back to the way it should be.

User avatar
rarkenin
Member
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 20:48

by rarkenin » Post

0gb.us wrote:Another solution might be to have infinite lava at the bottom of the world. That way, you really have to work to get to it. Of course, that would have to wait until the edges are stabilized, and bad things no longer happen there.
Or maybe not at the very bottom, but like -4096 or so.
Admin pro tempore on 0gb.us:30000. Ask me if you have a problem, or just want help.
This is a signature virus. Add me to your signature so that I can multiply.
Now working on my own clone, Mosstest.
I guess I'm back for some time.

User avatar
Temperest
Member
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 23:13
GitHub: Uberi

by Temperest » Post

That is an excellent idea!

Similar to the infinite lava springs that can be found underground, but even more challenging.
WorldEdit 1.0 released

The Mesecons Laboratory - the art of Mesecons circuitry
Latest article: Mesecons Basics.

User avatar
jammr
New member
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 01:46
Location: Capsaicin Atoll

by jammr » Post

I like the idea of making it an option in the configuration file; choices are always good. If there's such a holy war over lava behavior then it doesn't make sense to favor one implementation over the other without a default way to opt out.

User avatar
10twenty4
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 20:54

by 10twenty4 » Post

I like the deep springs of infinite lava idea. Call it something like "magma" to differentiate it, make it more damaging than regular lava, and have it start spawning at a higher frequency the deeper you dig, so that at a certain point you always run into a magma ocean, but have this be configurable, so if people want to dig down forever they can.

User avatar
12Me21
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 00:36
GitHub: 12Me21
Location: (Ignore all of my posts before 2018)

by 12Me21 » Post

If you want infinite resources, go into creative mode and add more stuff. I know that it's cheating, but anything infinite is a cheat, because nothing is infinite.
Shoutouts to Simpleflips

User avatar
GloopMaster
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 18:03
Location: http://minetest.net/forum/

by GloopMaster » Post

Oh. My. God.

Image

WE GET IT. MINETEST IS TURNING INTO MINECRAFT. SO SHOVE IT UP YOUR ALMIGHTY ASS AND SHUT THE HELL UP.
Meow.

That is all.

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

12Me21 wrote:If you want infinite resources, go into creative mode and add more stuff. I know that it's cheating, but anything infinite is a cheat, because nothing is infinite.
Infinite resources isn't cheating. It's sustainability. Without infinite resources, long-time running worlds will run out.

Creative mode is TOO easy. Having a world that can last forever shouldn't require being able to pull any material out of thin air at any time without any effort. You should have to go find lava, you just shouldn't be able to run out.

What about building out of nodes that take ages to break? If renewability is cheating, building such overly-defensive structures must surely also be cheating.
Last edited by 0gb.us on Wed Mar 20, 2013 02:59, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chinchow
Member
Posts: 684
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 21:37

by Chinchow » Post

Now There is a lot of squabbling going on here and I personally prefer renewable lava but I realize not everyone thinks the same as I do so I have some possible solutions.

1.Make it an option when first creating a world.
By this I mean make it an option similar to when you configure mods.
Ex:
Mods
Foomod
Other
FFinite Water
Finite Lava

2. Make a renewable lava type far beneath the surface.

Mese was changed but you can still mine the block very far down.

Everyone try to stay calm stuff like this has happened before and it will happen again but Minetest will live through whether it becomes a better game or a worse one is still to be seen.
Sometimes, it's harder to think up a mod than it is to create it.
Mods: Orichalcum Stonebricks Extra Chests

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

Chinchow wrote:Now There is a lot of squabbling going on here and I personally prefer renewable lava but I realize not everyone thinks the same as I do so I have some possible solutions.

1.Make it an option when first creating a world.
By this I mean make it an option similar to when you configure mods.
Ex:
Mods
Foomod
Other
FFinite Water
Finite Lava

2. Make a renewable lava type far beneath the surface.

Mese was changed but you can still mine the block very far down.

Everyone try to stay calm stuff like this has happened before and it will happen again but Minetest will live through whether it becomes a better game or a worse one is still to be seen.
that is what I say we push for. When we create a world have a config button that opens up a config menu. There is one problem. PilzAdam says config is only for the engine and not the actual game itself. But the world config can be different from regular config since it is defined in world.meta I think and also it is per world not the entire server.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

0gb.us wrote:
12Me21 wrote:If you want infinite resources, go into creative mode and add more stuff. I know that it's cheating, but anything infinite is a cheat, because nothing is infinite.
Infinite resources isn't cheating. It's sustainability. Without infinite resources, long-time running worlds will run out.

Creative mode is TOO easy. Having a world that can last forever shouldn't require being able to pull any material out of thin air at any time without any effort. You should have to go find lava, you just shouldn't be able to run out.

What about building out of nodes that take ages to break? If renewability is cheating, building such overly-defensive structures must surely also be cheating.
I would like to point out a parallel to Minecraft. In their pre-indev game there were human mobs that were re,over once multiplayer came. Things that are meant to be feasting items are meant to be tested and then expanded. All we did was upgrade mess to the next level. We still have mess picks.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
Dopium
Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 15:43
Location: Australia

by Dopium » Post

This topic clearly has people that want and dont want the change, serious just add the option to the config as default so the user can make the choice without writing scripts. By the looks of it adding this feature is like pulling teeth for some, add the option to config file and problem solved. Everyone is happy then, servers can run whatever they like, if not then add a poll. There is many users that dont really use IRC often, simple fix........geez
Running @1.19 MHz, 128 bytes of RAM and interchangeable 4kb ROM carts!

User avatar
0gb.us
Member
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 01:55
Location: 0gb.us:30000
Contact:

by 0gb.us » Post

At least three people have suggested a poll, so I finally added one.

Also, ShadowNinja brought up a good point in-game today. What about liquid_finite? That's for making liquids finite. So enabled, liquids are finite. When disabled, meaning the administrator does NOT want liquids to be finite, lava (a liquid) is finite anyway.

User avatar
Mihobre
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 08:45
Location: In your mouth

by Mihobre » Post

10twenty4 wrote:Conservation should be more important than renewibilty. I like the idea that this is a game about exploitation rather than building. If you don't do a good job preserving and rationing your lava fields, you have two options: move west or die (or run out of lava). If you absolutely need infinite lava, mod in the nether or an infinite lava source. actually, having a world where lava can reproduce infinitely could produce some interesting situations, assuming you still had options for building and transport (floating islands above a lava world, anyone?)
Mese nodes aren't really "hundreds of thousands", maybe only hundreds. :D
I wanna fly!!!
I wanna have feathery wings of silver, blue, and white!!!
I wanna soar high and touch the sky!!!
I wanna fly!!!

User avatar
jojoa1997
Member
Posts: 2890
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 05:11
Location: Earth

by jojoa1997 » Post

0gb.us wrote:At least three people have suggested a poll, so I finally added one.

Also, ShadowNinja brought up a good point in-game today. What about liquid_finite? That's for making liquids finite. So enabled, liquids are finite. When disabled, meaning the administrator does NOT want liquids to be finite, lava (a liquid) is finite anyway.
that was one of my arguments in irc and it got me no where. They said finite is finite liquids and infinite liquids is lava and water but lava is non renewable. Then they wanted me to turn if ITE liquids and find a spring way underground and use that. So it became get infinite liquids from finite setting.
Coding;
1X coding
3X debugging
12X tweaking to be just right

User avatar
rarkenin
Member
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 20:48

by rarkenin » Post

10twenty4 wrote:I like the deep springs of infinite lava idea. Call it something like "magma" to differentiate it, make it more damaging than regular lava, and have it start spawning at a higher frequency the deeper you dig, so that at a certain point you always run into a magma ocean, but have this be configurable, so if people want to dig down forever they can.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Also make it only movable with a more valuable tool, i.e. a mese bucket.
Admin pro tempore on 0gb.us:30000. Ask me if you have a problem, or just want help.
This is a signature virus. Add me to your signature so that I can multiply.
Now working on my own clone, Mosstest.
I guess I'm back for some time.

User avatar
prestidigitator
Member
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 23:54

by prestidigitator » Post

Huh. Interesting ideas. What about just making lava renewable if and only if you are below a certain depth? Move it higher and it becomes non-renewable. So lava needs the heat of the Earth to stay renewable, essentially. Might make some sense. Could also make water NON-RENEWABLE that deep. Or even make water evaporate quickly that deep, so it can't stay around for longer than a few seconds.

User avatar
Temperest
Member
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 23:13
GitHub: Uberi

by Temperest » Post

That is an idea I can get behind, presdigitator.
WorldEdit 1.0 released

The Mesecons Laboratory - the art of Mesecons circuitry
Latest article: Mesecons Basics.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests