Music in Minetest...

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HeroOfTheWinds
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by HeroOfTheWinds » Sat May 03, 2014 03:15

Jordach wrote:Given SoundHelix a try with my skills in FL; managed to make this:

Note: I also partly re-transposed this on purpose.

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/clalvza ... device.ogg

I made one earlier, my bandwidth failed to upload it (at that time);

Note: I seriously love that scratchy / glitchy sound (think reggae / dub notation, 2/3 single notes, then a large triad.)

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/70cgu5r ... Helix1.ogg

Both are quite good! But my favorite is the second one. :)

Maybe I should fire a few midis your way that I made a while back.
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Re: Music in Minetest... and how I'd do it.

by spootonium » Sat May 03, 2014 10:57

https://mega.co.nz/#!lNkh2DTK!cgbuwUDlfMcitiZigPYL5ESIsFVLvg2_UpKA1OC3JJY .dia (6kB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!oF1jTYxZ!NoJo0hJV_O7_qTwjzYFZ6FfMyPQLmjIIlI_EI7fdeUk .svg (27kB)

This diagram probably only demonstrates my ignorance of the detailed engine structure :-\ Eh, well.
The upshot is:
  • a server-side composing module, producing a stream of MIDI or OSC cues,
  • layering in (as-and-when appropriate) environmental and event-triggered sound cues from "the world",
  • passing this stream of cues to the client, which
  • synthesizes the audio stream using a library of samples (or wavetables, or what-have-you).

From what I can glean from the dev wiki, the server concerns itself primarily with generating and maintaining the game world as an abstracted data model, while the client renders the simulation with which the user interacts. Based on that understanding, it follows that it should be the server's responsibility to procedurally generate ("compose") music, but the client's to synthesize ("perform") it.

Is any of this making sense?
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Morn76 » Sat May 03, 2014 11:10

Why are you putting these tiny files on Mega instead of posting as an attachment??? Isn't Mega the service where people got sued and the founder was jailed? I'm not using that.

P.S. For synthesis, maybe MT could include the timidity source code. Java 7 has the Gervill softsynth which SoundHelix uses on Linux. The only question would be where to get properly licensed patches. But other than that MIDI is fine for a client-server architecture with limited bandwidth.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Jordach » Sat May 03, 2014 11:36

Morn76 wrote:Why are you putting these tiny files on Mega instead of posting as an attachment??? Isn't Mega the service where people got sued and the founder was jailed? I'm not using that.

P.S. For synthesis, maybe MT could include the timidity source code. Java 7 has the Gervill softsynth which SoundHelix uses on Linux. The only question would be where to get properly licensed patches. But other than that MIDI is fine for a client-server architecture with limited bandwidth.

Mega.co.nz is fine.

It's possible to combine the two, but people would prefer a real audio stream than a MIDI output. (Trust me, even I dislike MIDI, except when I'm working on it because it's a small file and is basically useful.

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Morn76 » Sat May 03, 2014 11:44

Jordach wrote:He also tweeted that his Call of Duty ping went up when they started spying on him with a wiretap)


And why do they even need a wiretap when they have PRISM and everything goes through a beam splitter? Oh well, I guess it's like the US/UK pretending they had not yet broken Enigma in WW II when they already hat.

Back on topic, of course "real" audio would be better, but the idea is to create auto-composed music either on the server or client and then synthesize that on the client. So I think MIDI is pretty much needed. MIDI doesn't have to sound bad, it all depends on the synthesis engine.

P.S. Ooh, SoundHelix has created something quite catchy:
2014-05-03 13:41:31,954 INFO [Generator] SongUtils: Song name: "The mechanical boy"
2014-05-03 13:41:31,954 DEBUG [Generator] SongUtils: Rendering new song with random seed 3076599096077343850


You can use the song title to recreate a song, so random title generation is actually not a complete gimmick.

P.P.S. The biggest problem with wavetable MIDI synthesis is that it sounds too dry. Something like Calf Chorus and Reverb is needed to make it sound more impressive and less tinny. This is also the main problem MIDI music in PC games had in the 1990s I think. Nice wavetables but no or bad effects. Then again maybe today's softsynths like timidity have built-in reverb?
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Gambit » Fri May 09, 2014 21:47

I was never a fan of ambient music in video game (unless the scene called for it), especially Minecraft. When I played minecraft, the music would drive me to boredom. I would have to lower the music down and play something over it that was more adventurous but not too dramatic or uppity.
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by philipbenr » Sat May 10, 2014 06:22

Seriously, just get a Pandora account and play some radio if whatever you think appropriate. I do that all the time. Just turn on some internet music player and do some work.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by onpon4 » Sat May 10, 2014 10:15

philipbenr wrote:Seriously, just get a Pandora account and play some radio if whatever you think appropriate. I do that all the time. Just turn on some internet music player and do some work.


There are two problems with that suggestion:

1. Pandora requires proprietary, defective by design software.
2. Playing random music that you like doesn't fulfill the same purpose as good in-game music.

Playing random music that you like just serves to get rid of silence. Good in-game music does more than that; it reinforces the atmosphere. So, for example, it needs to change depending on the setting.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by sfan5 » Sat May 10, 2014 10:35

onpon4 wrote:
philipbenr wrote:Seriously, just get a Pandora account and play some radio if whatever you think appropriate. I do that all the time. Just turn on some internet music player and do some work.


There are two problems with that suggestion:

1. Pandora requires proprietary, defective by design software.
2. Playing random music that you like doesn't fulfill the same purpose as good in-game music.

Playing random music that you like just serves to get rid of silence. Good in-game music does more than that; it reinforces the atmosphere. So, for example, it needs to change depending on the setting.

1) Buy music you like on CDs.
2) Convert the CDs into .oggs with abcde
3) Play them with VLC
No proprietary software involved.
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Krock » Sat May 10, 2014 11:06

2nd way:

1) Youtube.com
2) Search for a good musicvideo
3) Play the video
Pros
- You like the music
- Don't need more than flashplayer (and a PC which is better than mine)
- Playlists and 1h-albums are useful
- Compatible to all platforms which MT supports

Cons
- Requires internet connection
- Not all cool music can be found on YT
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Calinou » Sat May 10, 2014 12:50

Krock wrote:- Don't need more than flashplayer (and a PC which is better than mine)


http://youtube.com/html5 ‑ use it.
YouTube for music is inefficient anyway. It was never made as a music sharing site.
There are lots of (legal and free) sites that distribute around music as actual sound files.

This doesn't solve the problem of ambience, as onpon4 said. The music should be fitting and ideally dynamic.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by spootonium » Mon May 12, 2014 02:10

Krock wrote:2nd way:
1) Youtube.com
2) Search for a good musicvideo
3) Play the video


The fact that you have to supplement (by whatever means) the audio present in Minetest, is perhaps the strongest argument in favour of adding at least some music to the game.

Others have already suggested that Minetest could (and I think should) be capable of creating better ambiance, through music (as well as SFX), but it remains one of those lingering things that casts MT as "poor-man's Minecraft".
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by spootonium » Thu May 15, 2014 12:11

In order to further the disussion...

I've been thinking about the various situations and "environments" (including biomes) to which music could be effectively applied in order to create a mood. The list below is far from exhaustive, but is submitted for comment and expansion.

Code: Select all
== Menu (Canned Theme?) ==
- Perhaps each gamemode might (optionally) have its own theme, appropiate to the particular game.
 
== (Re-)Spawning ==
: Concept :
 So, you've just been unceremoniously dropped into this wierd, unfamiliar world. It's a jarring experience, but you're resolved to make the best of it. You're excited at the potential waiting beyond these new horizons, and wary that there are perils and pitfalls waiting, too.
: Keywords :
 ambient, tense, hopeful

== (Deciduous) Forest ==
: Concept :
 A shady stand of trees and undergrowth. Upon entering, you are enveloped by cool, damp, earthen scents. Picking your way between massive trunks, you tread lightly, feeling inconsequential next to such majesty.
: Keywords :
 enclosed (not claustrophobic), serene, woody, natural, primal

== Jungle ==
: Concept :
 A dense, steaming rainforest, teeming with all kinds of life. Myriad creatures flit and jump between the giant boughs under a seamless canopy.
: Keywords :
 dense, close, dark, wild, primal

== Grassland ==
: Concept :
 A gentle wind stirs the grass, causing whispering, green waves to slowly march accross rolling hills.
: Keywords :
 peaceful, calm, quiet, wide-open, breathy, pastoral, simple,

== Savannah ==
: Concept :
 (Pretty much the same as grassland, but perhaps harsher and more primal.)
: Keywords :
 wide-open, wild, tribal

== Desert ==
: Concept :
 A sea of sand and shimmering air. Cacti stand like sentenels over the sand and scrub. The wind s oppressively hot and dry, carrying fine grit, and a dusty tang of burnt flint.
: Keywords : open, exposed, harsh

== Beach ==
: Concept :
 You stand on the edge if a great, blue expanse stretching to the horizon and beyond. A strong, salt-laden wind whips foam and spray from the tops of the breakers, and rushes heedlessly past you.
: Keywords :
 expansive, nautical, adventurous?

== Underwater ==
: Concept :
 (Cousteau would be the obvious reference here, but I can find no appropriate quotes, etc.)
: Keywords :
 deep, cold, dark, murky/muddy

== Caves/Mines ==
: Concept :
: Keywords :
 cavernous (derp), enclosed, echoing, hard, dark

== NPC Villages ==
: Concept :
 A friendly, welcoming village.
: Keywords :
 tribal, folksy, rythmic, warm,

== Urban "Biome" ==
: Concept :
 (It occured to me that built-up areas should have an ambiance different to the generated biome on which they stand. The engine might differentiate by detecting player-crafted nodes, or things like streets:asphalt, or conctrete:concrete.)
: Keywords :
 hard, grey, bustling, modern, complex, jazzy?, industrial?
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Excalibur Zero » Sun May 18, 2014 01:51

What I'd love to see is a simplistic system where different zones are defined by the nodes around the player and there would be different default music for each zone, but it would also allowe players to easily add thier own music to be played instead of the default music and to possibly add new zones.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by spootonium » Sun May 18, 2014 09:42

Excalibur Zero wrote:What I'd love to see is a simplistic system where different zones are defined by the nodes around the player and there would be different default music for each zone, but it would also allowe players to easily add thier own music to be played instead of the default music and to possibly add new zones.


Something like that could conceivably work, but I think you'd still need to somehow differentiate between (for example) a desert, a sandstone cave, and anything you built out of desert-sourced blocks, like a cactus farm. You might create a "music=n" group(s) to help in that respect, or implement something like a special "music-zone-marker" ore, or a node to mark your zones by locus. Of course for those who want their own, specific, in-world music, when-and-where they want it, there's the [ambiance] and [jukebox] mods.

I'm still plugging the idea of procedurally-generated music, though, not because it's the most straightforward option, but because it's the most interesting.
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by onpon4 » Sun May 18, 2014 12:15

Excalibur Zero wrote:allowe players to easily add thier own music to be played instead of the default music

Or just let them turn the music off. If you want to play your own choice of music, nothing's stopping you from doing it in an audio player.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Excalibur Zero » Sun May 18, 2014 16:18

onpon4 wrote:
Excalibur Zero wrote:allowe players to easily add thier own music to be played instead of the default music

Or just let them turn the music off. If you want to play your own choice of music, nothing's stopping you from doing it in an audio player.

Though if people just go by using their audio player it defeats the purpose of the music being used to immerse the player better into the game. Customization of the music would allow players to change out music that they may not like with music that they do like.

That way people could use the default music, or if they have music that they like better, use that music instead.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by thetoon » Mon May 19, 2014 07:46

Excalibur Zero wrote:What I'd love to see is a simplistic system where different zones are defined by the nodes around the player and there would be different default music for each zone, but it would also allowe players to easily add thier own music to be played instead of the default music and to possibly add new zones.


Just use biomes, with biome-themed music (or pieces of music that the system automagically stucks together, as long as in the same - or compatible - scale it should work) starting to play whenever you enter (i.e. step onto a biome's ground node). Ideally, it might be better to trigger it after a few nodes into the biome (to prevent side effects), and probably to queue music instead of playing it.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by spootonium » Wed May 21, 2014 10:45

onpon4 wrote:Or just let them turn the music off. If you want to play your own choice of music, nothing's stopping you from doing it in an audio player.


Taken as read, I should think.

4aiman wrote:Have found this: http://www.pjb.com.au/comp/lua/MIDI.html
Not a *.mod or *.xm


This would do to "mash" and string together pre-composed scores.

It never occurred to me how incomplete my understanding of music theory was, until I tried to design a program to algorithmically score ambient music. The research continues...

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by thetoon » Wed May 21, 2014 12:02

4aiman wrote:Have found this: http://www.pjb.com.au/comp/lua/MIDI.html
Not a *.mod or *.xm


Given the "pixelart" focus of Minetest, I guess it wouldn't be illogical to make it sound like "pixelmusic". So hurray for MIDI.
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by spootonium » Sat May 24, 2014 21:35

thetoon wrote:Given the "pixelart" focus of Minetest, I guess it wouldn't be illogical to make it sound like "pixelmusic". So hurray for MIDI.


I had thought this way, too, but software synths are much better than they were in the 90's, so that needn't necessarily be the limit of our ambition. Of course, there are other options for multi-channel "note transfer", such as OpenSound Controls, but since MIDI has been the de-facto standard for so long, I'd expect there to be more and better libraries available for it.
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Re: Music in Minetest...

by Pitriss » Sun May 25, 2014 07:26

Eh.. purpose of music in most games (for me) is to turn that crap off and lets play something I like.. I don't remember any game where I liked its builtin music so much to keep it turned on..

BTW Ambience mods are reason why i have turned off sounds in MT..
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by philipbenr » Sun May 25, 2014 23:49

If you play any of these: FTL? Battle for Wesnoth? Still, I play my own music for most games as well. And most times that is Pirates of the Caribbean. ;)
 

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Re: Music in Minetest...

by TranceTip » Wed Jun 04, 2014 19:01

SoundHelix 0.7.1 has been released: http://www.soundhelix.com

Whoever made the archlinux SoundHelix package, please update. :)
 

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