What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Inocudom » Wed May 07, 2014 15:06

celeron55 wrote:Image

Celeron55 posted this image in the Post Your Screenshots thread. It must mean something about Minetest's future.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by MirceaKitsune » Wed May 07, 2014 16:47

Inocudom wrote:
celeron55 wrote:http://i.imgur.com/gbGdbwJ.png

Celeron55 posted this image in the Post Your Screenshots thread. It must mean something about Minetest's future.


It means the end. Erm... not the end of Minetest's future! I mean that screenshot looks like The End.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by PilzAdam » Wed May 07, 2014 19:16

Inocudom wrote:
celeron55 wrote:Image

Celeron55 posted this image in the Post Your Screenshots thread. It must mean something about Minetest's future.

The signs! They are everywhere!
Soilnar!
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Jordach » Wed May 07, 2014 19:27

PilzAdam wrote:
Inocudom wrote:
celeron55 wrote:Image

Celeron55 posted this image in the Post Your Screenshots thread. It must mean something about Minetest's future.

The signs! They are everywhere!
Soilnar!

Even I've played Soilnar, and it's the best game ever!
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19056 Solar Plains Dev Server
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Johnyknowhow » Fri May 09, 2014 21:13

One thing I cannot stand about MT, is all the lag. In MC even when servers lag, you still get instant responses to items in your inventory. You don't have to wait 15 seconds for that iron to go into the furnace, or wait a minute since the signs you placed are still not editable. Frustrates me so much, I explode, and I have to build a house every monday. (just kidding)
Its still very frustrating to have to wait ages for stuff to happen, and have players "teleporting" around instead of walking.
Also I think there needs to be a better entity system, you know that time when you hit a mob, and keep hitting it, yet, it only took damage the first time? eg, *hit* -damage- *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* -damage- *hit*... Very frustrating.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Johnyknowhow » Fri May 09, 2014 21:14

Erm, I just realized this topic was 4 pages long, and not 1. Oops.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Johnyknowhow » Fri May 09, 2014 21:22

Oh nevermind, I was going to post something about mcmmo until I realized calinou already talked about it.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Evergreen » Fri May 09, 2014 22:16

Johnyknowhow wrote:One thing I cannot stand about MT, is all the lag. In MC even when servers lag, you still get instant responses to items in your inventory. You don't have to wait 15 seconds for that iron to go into the furnace, or wait a minute since the signs you placed are still not editable. Frustrates me so much, I explode, and I have to build a house every monday. (just kidding)
Its still very frustrating to have to wait ages for stuff to happen, and have players "teleporting" around instead of walking.
Also I think there needs to be a better entity system, you know that time when you hit a mob, and keep hitting it, yet, it only took damage the first time? eg, *hit* -damage- *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* -damage- *hit*... Very frustrating.

The reason is that the movement of items in the inventory is handled server side. That means if the server is lagging, it makes it that way in the inventory too. It's more secure.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Johnyknowhow » Fri May 09, 2014 22:45

Evergreen wrote:
Johnyknowhow wrote:One thing I cannot stand about MT, is all the lag. In MC even when servers lag, you still get instant responses to items in your inventory. You don't have to wait 15 seconds for that iron to go into the furnace, or wait a minute since the signs you placed are still not editable. Frustrates me so much, I explode, and I have to build a house every monday. (just kidding)
Its still very frustrating to have to wait ages for stuff to happen, and have players "teleporting" around instead of walking.
Also I think there needs to be a better entity system, you know that time when you hit a mob, and keep hitting it, yet, it only took damage the first time? eg, *hit* -damage- *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* -damage- *hit*... Very frustrating.

The reason is that the movement of items in the inventory is handled server side. That means if the server is lagging, it makes it that way in the inventory too. It's more secure.

Even though its more secure, its more laggy, and its scaring players away. And there must be a better way to handle it.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by GingerHunter797 » Fri May 09, 2014 22:45

Inocudom wrote:
celeron55 wrote:Image

Celeron55 posted this image in the Post Your Screenshots thread. It must mean something about Minetest's future.


Is this gonna be in the next version?
http://i.imgur.com/gqXXUaI.png

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Sat May 10, 2014 14:48

Johnyknowhow wrote:One thing I cannot stand about MT, is all the lag. In MC even when servers lag, you still get instant responses to items in your inventory. You don't have to wait 15 seconds for that iron to go into the furnace, or wait a minute since the signs you placed are still not editable. Frustrates me so much, I explode, and I have to build a house every monday. (just kidding)


The inventory itself is predicted, but not containers. Anyway, you should play on less laggy servers. 15 seconds is not playable at all. ;)

Minecraft also lacks chat prediction. The game feels much more responsive with it. :)

Johnyknowhow wrote:Also I think there needs to be a better entity system, you know that time when you hit a mob, and keep hitting it, yet, it only took damage the first time? eg, *hit* -damage- *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* *hit* -damage- *hit*... Very frustrating.


You are not supposed to spam mouse clicks. Wait some time, ideally the full punch interval (0.9 to 1.4 seconds depending on the tool used in the default game). Debug mode (F5) lets you see entity health. Also, there's no point in hugging the mob while attackng them, you can be up to 4 blocks away and still attack it.

Evergreen wrote:The reason is that the movement of items in the inventory is handled server side. That means if the server is lagging, it makes it that way in the inventory too. It's more secure.


More secure? Prediction has nothing to do with cheaty-ness.
Minecraft, before Beta 1.0 (2010-12-20) had client-side inventories, which means players could get any item they wanted. This was never possible in Minetest. ;)
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Johnyknowhow » Sat May 10, 2014 20:04

In singleplayer I still get that laggy response. I'ts just not the same as MC.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Sat May 10, 2014 21:14

Johnyknowhow wrote:In singleplayer I still get that laggy response. I'ts just not the same as MC.


It should not – provided your PC is fast enough. Here, Minetest feels less laggy than Minecraft (when I played it).
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Wuzzy » Mon May 12, 2014 16:47

Here, Minetest feels less laggy than Minecraft (when I played it).

For me, too! (Yes, I admit! I tried MC once a while ago but it was simply unplayable.)
Maybe Johnyknowhow meant Minetest is still not as much laggy as Minecraft, so more lag should be added as a feature. xD
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by GingerHunter797 » Mon May 12, 2014 21:33

Wuzzy wrote:
Here, Minetest feels less laggy than Minecraft (when I played it).

For me, too! (Yes, I admit! I tried MC once a while ago but it was simply unplayable.)
Maybe Johnyknowhow meant Minetest is still not as much laggy as Minecraft, so more lag should be added as a feature. xD


The most recent MC updates have cut down the lag quite significantly, I remember around 1.4.7 when I would get horrible lag spikes all over the place. Now (1.7.9) I play with a ussually solid 20-30 fps. In Minetest playing under Windows 7(64-bit) I get a maximum of 10 fps. Playing under Linux (Zorin OS 8 and Ubuntu 14.04) I would get the opposite. I also lag on the inventory screen while playing under Windows. Just thought I would share my experiences with lag in comparison to the two games :)
http://i.imgur.com/gqXXUaI.png

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Tue May 13, 2014 11:36

On some servers there is actual lag of about 30 seconds for me.

Not low FPS (I don't go below 30FPS that much), actual server client lag.

A client lua api would be good as a way to reduce lag.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Tue May 13, 2014 12:22

rubenwardy wrote:On some servers there is actual lag of about 30 seconds for me.

Not low FPS (I don't go below 30FPS that much), actual server client lag.


These servers are probably running out of RAM, writing player files all the time or having a slow CPU. Their connection could also be congested.

rubenwardy wrote:A client lua api would be good as a way to reduce lag.


Why? Reducing perceived lag doesn't need client-side Lua modding: the prediction can often be done in C++.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Tue May 13, 2014 13:02

Calinou wrote:
rubenwardy wrote:On some servers there is actual lag of about 30 seconds for me.

Not low FPS (I don't go below 30FPS that much), actual server client lag.


These servers are probably running out of RAM, writing player files all the time or having a slow CPU. Their connection could also be congested.

rubenwardy wrote:A client lua api would be good as a way to reduce lag.


Why? Reducing perceived lag doesn't need client-side Lua modding: the prediction can often be done in C++.


C++ is the bare minimum for this, and would be sufficient. A client side API would be for mods to reduce their lag. For example, immersive sounds only on client. Or simple formspec reactions, like toggling a button's text.

The client side API would have to have no access to the clients file system to be secure.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by onpon4 » Tue May 13, 2014 14:58

rubenwardy wrote:C++ is the bare minimum for this, and would be sufficient. A client side API would be for mods to reduce their lag. For example, immersive sounds only on client. Or simple formspec reactions, like toggling a button's text.

The client side API would have to have no access to the clients file system to be secure.


It sounds like you're proposing mods that get automatically downloaded and installed on the client, like JavaScript. I'm going to have to strongly oppose this idea regardless of whether or not harming the users on the client side is possible. See The JavaScript Trap. I do not want the equivalent to the JavaScript trap in Minetest or any other game I play. Any client-side mods need to be installed by the user of the client, not sent over from some server, and especially not sent over from some server automatically.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Tue May 13, 2014 16:04

onpon4 wrote:
rubenwardy wrote:C++ is the bare minimum for this, and would be sufficient. A client side API would be for mods to reduce their lag. For example, immersive sounds only on client. Or simple formspec reactions, like toggling a button's text.

The client side API would have to have no access to the clients file system to be secure.


It sounds like you're proposing mods that get automatically downloaded and installed on the client, like JavaScript. I'm going to have to strongly oppose this idea regardless of whether or not harming the users on the client side is possible. See The JavaScript Trap. I do not want the equivalent to the JavaScript trap in Minetest or any other game I play. Any client-side mods need to be installed by the user of the client, not sent over from some server, and especially not sent over from some server automatically.


Any of these mods would need to be optional. There would be three ways to do this:

  • Server suggests that the client installs a mod, the client can accept or deny. (through a dialog).
  • Client installs a mod voluntarily, server just has support.
  • Client installs a mod voluntarily, server does not need to support.

I don't see the JavaScript trap as a problem. If you are saying it is a legal issue, than it is not. Fair use covers this. If it is an ethical consideration, then I understand.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Evolykane » Wed Jun 11, 2014 14:43

The big, big, big Problem with minetest is, minetest was created for really bad Computers,
the aim of the devolopers is the highest possible performance.
This will subconsciously take the opportunity of the players with normal or good PCs to have a fun game play!

Why is the Mobfight boring in Minetest, but not in Minecraft?
In Minecraft you are fighting against liquid animated monsters while in Mintest a static mob object is flying towards you.
The reason is that in Minecraft much is calculated client side,so that the server has to carry much less load and secondly rapid liquid reactions and animations are made possible.

Another reason is that on the whole large Minecraft servers, there are city or guilds structures (such as Towny, Heroes).
Without the possibility to have a good organized competition of two or more groups of players (like guilds wars, who has the highest wealth, the largest population, or the largest city, and so on...) or the ability to play role-play like (level, Magic, mini-games, becoming stronger enemies, guild system ...).
If this Idea goes on minetest will die no later than 10 years, when the computer from 1980 broke and also the poors have better computer at last.

For example I want to play Minetest with nice and fancy graphics,
please do a LUA Possibility for Code calculated Clientside, maybe with an option like "allow Clientside Calculation" for bad PC users.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by sfan5 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 15:18

Evolykane wrote:LUA

It's called Lua, not LUA.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Wed Jun 11, 2014 17:01

Evolykane wrote:The big, big, big Problem with minetest is, minetest was created for really bad Computers,
the aim of the devolopers is the highest possible performance.
This will subconsciously take the opportunity of the players with normal or good PCs to have a fun game play!

Why is the Mobfight boring in Minetest, but not in Minecraft?
In Minecraft you are fighting against liquid animated monsters while in Mintest a static mob object is flying towards you.
The reason is that in Minecraft much is calculated client side,so that the server has to carry much less load and secondly rapid liquid reactions and animations are made possible.

Another reason is that on the whole large Minecraft servers, there are city or guilds structures (such as Towny, Heroes).
Without the possibility to have a good organized competition of two or more groups of players (like guilds wars, who has the highest wealth, the largest population, or the largest city, and so on...) or the ability to play role-play like (level, Magic, mini-games, becoming stronger enemies, guild system ...).
If this Idea goes on minetest will die no later than 10 years, when the computer from 1980 broke and also the poors have better computer at last.

For example I want to play Minetest with nice and fancy graphics,
please do a LUA Possibility for Code calculated Clientside, maybe with an option like "allow Clientside Calculation" for bad PC users.


The mobs are also server-side in Minecraft, but have some more prediction done on them. While useful, client-side Lua is quite overrated. What you want is more C++ stuff for prediction (see node placement prediction, entity position interpolation…).

Minetest works well, really well on modern high-end computers. Expect a constant 60 FPS there, with an high viewing range, even with multi-sample anti-aliasing enabled (Minecraft has no possibility to enable MSAA by default).
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Evolykane » Wed Jun 11, 2014 17:33

Calinou wrote:
Evolykane wrote:The big, big, big Problem with minetest is, minetest was created for really bad Computers,
the aim of the devolopers is the highest possible performance.
This will subconsciously take the opportunity of the players with normal or good PCs to have a fun game play!

Why is the Mobfight boring in Minetest, but not in Minecraft?
In Minecraft you are fighting against liquid animated monsters while in Mintest a static mob object is flying towards you.
The reason is that in Minecraft much is calculated client side,so that the server has to carry much less load and secondly rapid liquid reactions and animations are made possible.

Another reason is that on the whole large Minecraft servers, there are city or guilds structures (such as Towny, Heroes).
Without the possibility to have a good organized competition of two or more groups of players (like guilds wars, who has the highest wealth, the largest population, or the largest city, and so on...) or the ability to play role-play like (level, Magic, mini-games, becoming stronger enemies, guild system ...).
If this Idea goes on minetest will die no later than 10 years, when the computer from 1980 broke and also the poors have better computer at last.

For example I want to play Minetest with nice and fancy graphics,
please do a LUA Possibility for Code calculated Clientside, maybe with an option like "allow Clientside Calculation" for bad PC users.


The mobs are also server-side in Minecraft, but have some more prediction done on them. While useful, client-side Lua is quite overrated. What you want is more C++ stuff for prediction (see node placement prediction, entity position interpolation…).

Minetest works well, really well on modern high-end computers. Expect a constant 60 FPS there, with an high viewing range, even with multi-sample anti-aliasing enabled (Minecraft has no possibility to enable MSAA by default).

My Pc is 3 Years old and not the best, but gets Minetest with constant 110 FPS with all options activated, I have no Problems with new features,
but because people with bad PCs, everybody must renounce such, this makes me angry and should change!
 

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