What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

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ArguablySane
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by ArguablySane » Post

rubenwardy wrote:Don't worry, client side is coming soon(tm).
This makes me exceedingly happy.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by benrob0329 » Post

SegFault22 wrote:These kids being disrespectful by dissecting others' posts in part instead of discussing it as whole, deserves them a swift ban from these forums. You know that the message is not complete without the rest of the context, and by doing that you stray too far away from the original meaning of the message, to the point of claiming that others have stated what they have not. It is also very off-topic because we are not here to discuss details about what should or should not be done with APIs added to the engine, except for attempts to prevent Minetest from becoming a Minecraft ripoff, which would happen if the community concedes/falls into submission and uses mods that make experience/knowledge exchangeable for anything (by subtracting points and giving something else).
I disagree, I think that it splits the post up quite nicely and makes it clearer as to what someone is talking about. Obviously the person should read the whole post rather than just a few quotes.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by programmingchicken » Post

benrob0329 wrote:
SegFault22 wrote:These kids being disrespectful by dissecting others' posts in part instead of discussing it as whole, deserves them a swift ban from these forums. You know that the message is not complete without the rest of the context, and by doing that you stray too far away from the original meaning of the message, to the point of claiming that others have stated what they have not. It is also very off-topic because we are not here to discuss details about what should or should not be done with APIs added to the engine, except for attempts to prevent Minetest from becoming a Minecraft ripoff, which would happen if the community concedes/falls into submission and uses mods that make experience/knowledge exchangeable for anything (by subtracting points and giving something else).
I disagree, I think that it splits the post up quite nicely and makes it clearer as to what someone is talking about. Obviously the person should read the whole post rather than just a few quotes.
+1
Screw u segfault lolnope sorry
<gamerdude> I apologize for the above content

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by PoignardAzur » Post

4aiman : My information comes from reading the code source (in the master branch of the github repository). It's either accurate or, at worst, recently outdated.

As for the Valve comparison, Minetest is similar to Valve games in that you can do basically everything with the tools they've given you, but the more you want to diverge from the exact game they built their tools for, the harder it is to work (especially for the map editor). Minecraft has the same problem : you can make thousands of different variations of armored skeletons in your map easily, but if you wan a giant cyclops spitting acid at you ? It'll take you hours.


ArguablySane : I agree so much. I see a lot of people going "minetest is so superior to minecraft in every conceivable metric, I why do people still play minecraft ?", and all I can think is "Guys, I can have fun in minecraft by just jumping around and punching blocks in an empty superflat map. Minetest has an horrible sound design, mediocre ergonomics, and the inventory system manages to lag in singleplayer."

Minetest has the potential to be incredible. But potential doesn't justify playing a game. Right now, minetest is worse than minecraft in almost every way, with the biggest advantage (being easy to mod) considerably diminished because most subgames are minecraft clones with a different hunger system designed by modders with no experience as game designers.


rubenwardy : It's kinda rude to use the third-person to describe someone who posted earlier in a discussion. A bit like ignoring someone right next to you and saying insulting things about them.


Ferk : There are engines better adapted to making RTS games, but Minetest is the best free engine for making voxel games. The voxel format is, actually pretty adapted for strategy games, and, ideally, you could use Minetest to make a RTS using assets and features of other mods.

Plus, a good voxel engine would be great for making "All Orcs must die"-style games, where you walk around on the map, building and moving defenses.


SegFault : the thread was created four years ago. Everything that had to be said about the sacred importance of not being too much like minecraft has been said. Several times. Being a bit off-topic isn't dramatic.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Dragonop » Post

Interesting comments are happening here, I will have to log out so I can see the other half of the story! ;-)

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by SegFault22 » Post

Maybe the engine should be outfitted with an API for APIs, so that it is easier to change APIs (for less unnecessary limitations and the like) or make your own where they are needed. Modifications could even add APIs working with the engine via "coremods" written in a (horrifying?) hybridization of C++ scripts (and lower-level Lua-scripts systems for simpler parts). Then we would never have to worry about any API causing limitations, because the coremod from which they originate could be changed or replaced without modifying the "basic parts" of minetest.
For example, node change API and physical dynamics (such as the part that facilitates changing one node to another, and the part that dictates what physical properties like velocity, mass etc. are given to entities) would stay in the engine, coremods add the systems that do stuff with changes to nodes and things happening with physical dynamics (such as explosives exploding and destroying nodes, or entities colliding), and Lua "game-mods" add the stuff that does stuff "in the game" with the APIs added by the engine and coremods (such as adding the explosive node that triggers an explosion event, adding entity registry instances and making the entity do stuff when it exists, etc.).
However, that may be very difficult, considering the current form of the Minetest engine and all of its very complex parts.
Spoiler
Nobody "screw" SegFault22. Any who dare try will get PWN'd repeatedly and without any form of hesitation.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by programmingchicken » Post

omg, segfault, you've done it AGAIN!

Wow, how long do you think it would take to make an api for apis in the engine?
There will always be something the people want that the apis don't have.
<gamerdude> I apologize for the above content

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by TheMiner » Post

Hi there
Minetest rocks. Think we all must stop digging more new stuff and just focus on fine-tune and debug this GREAT GAME. I am 99% happy with it like it is ;).

Maybe build-in Language translation on long run will help all Earth Aliens ;)

Cheerz
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Linuxdirk » Post

An API for an API? You DO know what caused X11 or ALSA to be so bloated? :)

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by ArguablySane » Post

TheMiner wrote:Hi there
Minetest rocks. Think we all must stop digging more new stuff and just focus on fine-tune and debug this GREAT GAME. I am 99% happy with it like it is ;).
I assume you've never played modded minecraft, right?
Look up some Let's Play videos for the FTB modpacks (I reccommend Direwolf20's videos). I think you'd revise you assessment if you saw what is possible when every aspect of the game can be modded rather than just the few bits the devs provide APIs for.

I mean, mobs can lag even in singleplayer, user interfaces are extremely limited, multi-part nodes require as many node definitions as there are possible combinations, the list goes on...
Minetest works fine if your goal is to recreate early beta versions of Minecraft, but if we want Minetest to really compete then it needs more features. It seems ridiculous that a FOSS game which is deisgned to be a great modding platform is actually less moddable than a closed-source proprietary game with obfuscated code owned my Microsoft.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Post

Just to clear up, there are two types of mods, patches and plugins. What we call MT mods are plugins. What we call MC mods are patches. MT can also do patch mods, however compilation is harder as it's C++.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by ArguablySane » Post

rubenwardy wrote:Just to clear up, there are two types of mods, patches and plugins. What we call MT mods are plugins. What we call MC mods are patches. MT can also do patch mods, however compilation is harder as it's C++.
The Forge mod for Minecraft allows jar files to be treated as plugins rather than patches. You just drop them in the mods folder and they work. I've done it and it's just as simple as installing mods in Minetest. It certainly doesn't require re-compiling the engine or doing any voodoo with git to get multiple mods into the same code base. In that way they are very comparable.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Don » Post

Isn't forge a patch? From my understanding you can't have plug-in mods without using a patch like forge.
Many of my mods are now a part of Minetest-mods. A place where you know they are maintained!

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Post

ArguablySane wrote:
rubenwardy wrote:Just to clear up, there are two types of mods, patches and plugins. What we call MT mods are plugins. What we call MC mods are patches. MT can also do patch mods, however compilation is harder as it's C++.
The Forge mod for Minecraft allows jar files to be treated as plugins rather than patches. You just drop them in the mods folder and they work. I've done it and it's just as simple as installing mods in Minetest. It certainly doesn't require re-compiling the engine or doing any voodoo with git to get multiple mods into the same code base. In that way they are very comparable.
How flexible is it?
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by ArguablySane » Post

Don wrote:Isn't forge a patch? From my understanding you can't have plug-in mods without using a patch like forge.
Yeah, Forge is a huge patch which adds a whole API and mod-loading system on top of the core Minecraft engine.
rubenwardy wrote:How flexible is it?
I've never tried to make a mod with it so I can't speak from experience, but almost every serious Minecraft mod uses it now. If there are things you can't do in it (aside from make an open-source game), I'm not aware of them. I've seen mods which do everything from creating portals which accurately render distant parts of the map to allowing multiple fluid-carrying pipes to occupy the same block or simulating an entire space launch to other planets in the solar system.

That's what we should be aiming for with Minetest.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by PoignardAzur » Post

ArguablySane wrote:I've never tried to make a mod with it so I can't speak from experience, but almost every serious Minecraft mod uses it now. If there are things you can't do in it (aside from make an open-source game), I'm not aware of them. I've seen mods which do everything from creating portals which accurately render distant parts of the map to allowing multiple fluid-carrying pipes to occupy the same block or simulating an entire space launch to other planets in the solar system.

That's what we should be aiming for with Minetest.
Oh my god, you sound like a Soviet who just took a trip to the USA and tells his friends about furniture catalogs :D
(this is not the first USSR/Minetest community comparison I drew in my head)

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by 4aiman » Post

I'll wrap the entire post into a spoiler.
There's a lot of examples from Magichet below as well as offtopic answers.
I've warned you ;)
Spoiler
@ benrob0329,
@PolgnardAzur,

Oh, please, ignore RubenWardy's tries to oppress me. He just loves me and my natural charisma :)
Just look at his messages: 4aiman this, 4aiman that...
Oh, those fans of mine are restless...

@ benrob0329,
It may seem that I make ungrounded statements, but that's only because it would be too long to explain "why so?".
And I also can be wrong, but that's why I'm writing this right now - by "talking" to all you guys and gals I hope to find where I'm wrong.
However, I don't know all the things anyone of you knows.
Thus your statements (as well as anyone else's) may seem ungrounded to me just like mine seem to you.
I hope that fact won't stand in the way and am looking forward to a constructive discussion where we let each other know should anyone of us find it difficult to understand "why so".


@PolgnardAzur,

Maybe it's the "slightly outdated" thing then.
However, even celeron55's info on the engine's code may be outdated.
I doubt there's someone who knows everything about every other line of MT engine code.
So, when it comes to using API I set my eyes on the lua_api.txt and some experimental mods.
Sometimes I ask devs directly - paramat, Sokomine and others should be able to confirm that.
Working mods can't lie ;)


@SegFault32
In case I'm in your list of kids who dissect, I'd like clarify that by splitting text into pieces it is easier to answer one point at a time. It's not like pulling 2-3 words from different parts of a sentence.
True, some unnecessary info may be spilled, but I don't think that's a problem.
For instance, I've found Ferk's "dissection" (as you've put it) quite interesting and valuable.
I don't say "thanks" out of politeness only.

As for "advertising"...
When I'm sure something can be done right now for MT - I do it within Magichet.
Little of what I did can't be done in Minetest.
If providing an example of what can be achieved *right now* means advertizing, then it definitely is not my problem.
Mito was told the same about his Dwarves game.
Nowadays many servers have adopted the ideas Mito had.
IDK whether that is a coincidence, but sometimes it's better to take a look than blame for offtopic.


As for new APIs...
Sure, that would be cool to have all those you've named (and even more) in the engine, but...
To change those one would need to patch the engine itself.
So some of the API can and should be left implemented in Lua.
Another option would be a "highly customizable" API which provides methods with lots of params to control every significant "IF" clause.
But the reason to discuss that API would appear only after those APIs become a part of the engine.
Pathfinder is a good example of what I'm trying to convey.


As for shifting the responsibility on the server owners...
That won't do. Mainly because of the fact server owners would use only Lua to make some "protection" system.
And here one have to stop and think to him/her~self "wouldn't it be better to code smth into the engine to provide server owners with a better protective API?".


@Ferk
About the camera...
Camera can be moved around the player within the radius 10 nodes or so.
The issue is for additional control.
But for an RTS one won't need any additional control: remove in-build HUDs, grant fly+fast and... voila!
Mouse cursor indeed is needed thing, though.
If there was a way to know what node was under the crosshair when the mouse button is being released, then cursor wouldn't be that necessary.

As for bullying...
XP can't be the only mean of preventing bullying.
But spending XP instead of accumulating those would help to lower the level of those who are there for a long period of time.
There will be tools with attack high enough to perform an instant kill, but it is possible to kill someone with your bare hands. If the hunter XP would be able to provide attack bonus or ATK stat would be something to train, that situation won't be so impossible.

Actually, the idea of too-much-difference-in-level-to-attack is a very bright idea. Even for mobs. Weakling should be slayed by weaklings :)

>>>"XP is bad because it worsens balance" loses credibility when you are adding other ways for veterans to get overpowered instead.
Exactly.

As for the "sandbox"...
Ohh... now I see. Part of my message was useless :)

>>>By the way, why did you need to fork the engine?
I needed some features which wouldn't be added to the MT engine as fast as I need those :)
In fact, if at least one dev would be against for whatever reason, my changes will never make it in.
So I've just did what should be done.

>>>did you fill a pull request for it to be merged into the official client or are your changes specifically hardcoded for Magichet?
No, I didn't.
I think it's useless for as long as my fans would remain active.
But I didn't change the licence like FM did.
And I won't.
I need LGPL v2.1.
So, the changes are out there in a public repo with under the same license and always up to date (not a day-to-day, but I doubt any rebase would be needed - I pull rather frequently).

The fork is quite young, but I have:

Code: Select all

+ added more fields to the physics_override. Now one can set fall tolerance, attack and digging times multipliers. (despite protocol bump, MGC client is compatible with MT servers)
+ created a new menu, with additional features (like merging favourites with public list) which is much more pretty and MC-like than MTs or even FMs (subjective ;)
+ added the ability to set moon and sun textures just like skyboxes - run0time&per-player (a friend of mine joked about the fact with "Oh, kewl!! Now the server would go down depending on a phase of a moon...").
+ merged  Zeg's slippery feature
+ make on_use to be called on RIGHT click (allowing to dig with food in hand)
+ removed death screen (now MT has a setting to disable that too)
Of course there are many tweaks like more informative debugging, changing default settings, ect were applied.
Sometimes to speedup the android build, sometimes to shrink the size of a debug.txt (I don't want and I don't know how to fir Irrlicht bugs for that matter).



As for the runes & alchemy...
Some of the uses named are already there as an enchantment (Like autocooking with the Arson chant).
BTW, enchantments in MGC can be "distributed" with the right click.
It works like this: the tool owner holds RMB and players around gain the effects of the tool he holds (but 2 levels lower). That happens within 10 nodes radius and the tool owner's tool gets worn drastically over time.

However, your description of runes is similar to the up-coming concept of the gems I'm working on.

Alchemistry as describe here doesn't seem much different from the MC one.
The same bottles and splash potions.
Good enough as a concept, though.
Care to elaborate? ;)



As for the mobs....
Mobs *do* spawn...
Good point.
All because I haven't yet make mobs area-extinct-able (MC-like).
But even with that fixed mobs would still be "breedable".


As for brewing...
MC does not force to explore (Terraria does ;), true.
MC is more like Pokemons - "gotta brew/craft them all (w/o leaving home)!"
It's just that if one wants to brew a good potion he would have to go to a Nether Fortress.
So *some* potions *do* need exploring.

Looking in this direction what MT lack would be variety of ingredients.
Shooo! redstone-potiont-effect-extender ingredient!
Add more rare crops with various effects.

The problem would be that effects are quite limited.
More possible effect -> more reasonable added crops/dungeons/treasures.

> Ectoplasm is used to fill reincarnator, can be spend to enchant a tool or refil the "summon" charecter's mana power.
Now the summons are only partially done.
Summon helps you to convert elementals' flesh to magic gems of a different quality which can be incrusted into the "hand" of a craftable weapon. Different "hand" have different number of gem slots.
Treat gems as a way to add some late-game equipment/tools (Terraria like).
There's much more about it, but first things first - thorough tests needed.


As for loosing XP/tools...
Reincarnating isn't that easy ;)
A lot of work is needed to reincarnate.
Thus, I'd suggest to not bother with reincarnating if there's nothing valuable.
Also, to fully reincarnate with 100% of the tools one would need to gain 33 diamond block (297 diamonds), 8 ghost blocks and enough ghost blocks to pay for 10% of dug blocks (since last death).

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Furikawari » Post

Hello all,

Just a quick thought: having to install mods to have something that starts to be interesting is not a user-friendly approach. It bothers me as a developper (to have to install mods), so I can't imagine how many people stopped after trying a few minutes... For example, no mob is just not acceptable imo.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Don » Post

Maybe a set of mods could be added to the game but could be disabled if player doesn't want them.
Many of my mods are now a part of Minetest-mods. A place where you know they are maintained!

A list of my mods can be found here

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by PoignardAzur » Post

4aiman wrote:@ benrob0329,
@PolgnardAzur,

Oh, please, ignore RubenWardy's tries to oppress me. He just loves me and my natural charisma :)
Just look at his messages: 4aiman this, 4aiman that...
Oh, those fans of mine are restless...
You're being just as rude as he was : when you want someone to know you don't like what they're doing, you tell them (by PM if it's harsh of irrelevant to the topic), you don't go passive-aggressive while badmouthing them in third person even though they're virtually in the same room as you.
4aiman wrote:@Ferk
About the camera...
Camera can be moved around the player within the radius 10 nodes or so.
The issue is for additional control. But for an RTS one won't need any additional control: remove in-build HUDs, grant fly+fast and... voila! [...] If there was a way to know what node was under the crosshair when the mouse button is being released, then cursor wouldn't be that necessary.
Not really. In RTS/MOBA games, the player is not a flying ghost who wanders around and looks at each unit to give them orders. The player is more like a god who has a view from above of the battlefield but looks in a locked direction and only moves horizontally. This is not something you can implement in minetest.
Furikawari wrote:having to install mods to have something that starts to be interesting is not a user-friendly approach. It bothers me as a developper (to have to install mods), so I can't imagine how many people stopped after trying a few minutes...
Amen.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by SegFault22 » Post

It may be possible to implement some alternative form of display/controls that allows a player to look in a locked direction over the battlefield and move the camera horizontally - while still having a player-character-entity to use in the world. The mode could be accessed from a special terminal, such as one where the player plays chess (against other players or computer AI) on a virtual board; or one where fighter-bombers (in standby-mode, either in the air or in hangars) are given commands to engage targets in the minetest world (moving entities or static positions), shoot them with onboard automatic projectile weapon(s) or launch missiles/drop bombs; or one where ICBM silos are given commands to power-up/"key on", lock onto target in the minetest world, and launch on course for the target/destination.
Considering how it is possible with other games built with C++, it should not be impossible to add the alternative camera/view feature to Minetest, especially if it is not replacing the standard camera/view, but instead accessible from special ingame triggers, such as the aforementioned terminals.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Linuxdirk » Post

ArguablySane wrote:It seems ridiculous that a FOSS game which is deisgned to be a great modding platform is actually less moddable than a closed-source proprietary game with obfuscated code owned my Microsoft.
I just wanted to quote this because it is 100 percent true …

MT is awesome and the API is awesome, but limiting the API to nodes, entities and containers and limiting nodes, entities and containers to only some features unnecessarily dumbs down the API :(

Every single aspect of the game should be changeable via the API and changes should not be bound to something.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Don » Post

Remember that Minecraft is not really modable. It requires a 3rd party patch to use mods.
I do wish that more could be done with minetest. One thing I would love to see is over sized mobs. I would like to see a huge dragon flying around.
Many of my mods are now a part of Minetest-mods. A place where you know they are maintained!

A list of my mods can be found here

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Linuxdirk » Post

Don wrote:Remember that Minecraft is not really modable. It requires a 3rd party patch to use mods.
That is correct. But Mojang did A LOT of work creating an API that is in the game and being developed since 1.8. So technically the game IS fully moddable. There is just no native interface available to add mods.

The other way round in Minetest: There is an API, but most parts aren’t moddable.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by 4aiman » Post

PoignardAzur wrote:You're being just as rude as he was
I've answered your PM on that matter.
I didn't start the fire.
PoignardAzur wrote:Not really. In RTS/MOBA games, the player is not a flying ghost who wanders around and looks at each unit to give them orders. The player is more like a god who has a view from above of the battlefield but looks in a locked direction and only moves horizontally. This is not something you can implement in minetest.
Once again, you don't know it *can* be implemented.
Look through the lua_api.txt.
1. Set a 1x1 transparent sprite as a player's skin.
2. Disable name tags.
3. Disable nodes' on_step sounds.
Now no one would be able to see or to hear anyone.

As for the "set" direction - not every RTS has a fixed camera angle.
Many of them allow to turn the camera and alter the "horizontal" angle
In this terms MT can offer more intuitive controls (imho).
Furikawari wrote:having to install mods to have something that starts to be interesting is not a user-friendly approach. It bothers me as a developper (to have to install mods), so I can't imagine how many people stopped after trying a few minutes...
+100


And here *I* was accused of offtopic...

What is "over Minecraft" to everyone? Is it making a game like MC but more fun, or making a game of a whole another genre?

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