What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Inocudom » Wed Sep 23, 2015 15:19

lisacvuk wrote:If minetest had hardware lighting and re-done textures, none would play Minecraft. I believe hardware lighting should be a priority. It would make the game look a lot better, and add options for colored lights, and light effects.

Yeah, but the developers hate those things. Besides, it would be far better in the long run to convert the graphics engine of Minetest into sparse voxel octrees first in some way, shape, or form. However, that will never happen either.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by 4aiman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 15:59

They don't hate those things. They just don't want to mess with lighting. For several reasons, AFAIK.
There are ppl who not only can, but did some of the hard work (coloured lights).
There were reasons to not add those changes either, though...

I don't like the talks about anything never happening (you should know better than others, I guess).
But I have to agree with the fact that I can't see any of the features in question to be added any time soon..
And as the MM engine is getting more abstracted, the chances of having HW lighting become lower and lower.
I fear that soon any attempt to change smth in a way MM engine draws the scene will be deemed *too hacky*.

MT... no, the whole community... has a wrong vector of development.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Ferk » Wed Sep 23, 2015 17:03

Inocudom wrote:Yeah, but the developers hate those things.

From what I gathered from reading threads on this forum, the developers do want hardware lighting, but it's hard to implement and nobody did it. Last time someone tried to add colored lighting it was done in a hackish way by just increasing the bits of the nodes, which is not the right way to do it. Lighting shouldn't be stored in param1 to begin with, hardware lighting should be the way to go and the devs know this. It's just that nobody is doing it.

Besides, it would be far better in the long run to convert the graphics engine of Minetest into sparse voxel octrees first in some way, shape, or form. However, that will never happen either.

That would just make the game slower without much benefit. In this time and age the whole hardware and software stack is optimized around polygons. Maybe in the future this would change and graphic cards would offer more voxel-based features, but I don't think that's the case right now, much less for the low-end hardware Minetest seems to want to target. I don't think going voxels would bring any benefit, it would just increase the workload since we would have to code our own engine. It would be easier to move to Ogre3D, OpenSceneGraph or some other more efficient and featureful engine than irrlicht.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Fixer » Sat Sep 26, 2015 17:24

rubenwardy wrote:Don't worry, client side is coming soon(tm).


Sarcasm?
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Sat Sep 26, 2015 17:26

Not really sarcasm, I'm just saying "coming soon" may not be that soon, it's just promised to be.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by thomasthespacefox » Fri Oct 02, 2015 13:21

one thing im sure us on older hardware have noticed is the lack of "raytracing" (is that the term?) aka not rendering things when they are not visible? aka a cave 50 nodes of rock below you for example?
that should at least increase the framerate.
and can someone explain this thing about there being no central texture atlas? (and what a texture atlas?)
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Ferk » Fri Oct 02, 2015 13:31

thomasthespacefox wrote:not rendering things when they are not visible

If that's the case then this might actually be the biggest performance hog. I thought this was supposed to be already done at a lower level and that it would have come for free in irrlicht.. is it not the case?

thomasthespacefox wrote:can someone explain this thing about there being no central texture atlas? (and what a texture atlas?)

It's a single big picture that is actually a "collage" composed of all the textures stitched together. Then you load that single picture in memory and select the one you actually want by transposing to the right coordinates.
It's supposed to make loading textures faster.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Fri Oct 02, 2015 14:12

thomasthespacefox wrote:one thing im sure us on older hardware have noticed is the lack of "raytracing" (is that the term?) aka not rendering things when they are not visible? aka a cave 50 nodes of rock below you for example?
that should at least increase the framerate.
and can someone explain this thing about there being no central texture atlas? (and what a texture atlas?)


We have occlusion culling since November 2011 (and fixed view frustum culling at the same time). It however tries to cause as few rendering glitches as possible, so it remains conservative.

The texture atlas was removed because it caused too many bugs and didn't have a large positive impact on performance of modern hardware.

Performance hogs we currently have are hidden deep inside Minetest rendering code (and not Irrlicht, which is very fast when used right).
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by rubenwardy » Fri Oct 02, 2015 20:18

The texture atlas was broken only by the implementation. The idea of one is sound.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by thomasthespacefox » Sat Oct 03, 2015 01:45

Calinou wrote:
thomasthespacefox wrote:one thing im sure us on older hardware have noticed is the lack of "raytracing" (is that the term?) aka not rendering things when they are not visible? aka a cave 50 nodes of rock below you for example?
that should at least increase the framerate.
and can someone explain this thing about there being no central texture atlas? (and what a texture atlas?)


We have occlusion culling since November 2011 (and fixed view frustum culling at the same time). It however tries to cause as few rendering glitches as possible, so it remains conservative.

The texture atlas was removed because it caused too many bugs and didn't have a large positive impact on performance of modern hardware.

Performance hogs we currently have are hidden deep inside Minetest rendering code (and not Irrlicht, which is very fast when used right).


i have a clue how hard those buried bugs and slugs can be to work out. not exactly, mind you, I'm currently not that skilled in C, C++, exc. most of my work is with logical, Bash/shell programs. i can picture how long this stuff can take though.

perhaps we should fix these performance hogs first. So minetest will actually have enough CPU RAM and GPU left for all those ,Mods, Sub-Games, Graphics and physics bells and whistles everybody is talking about.

that seems to be the general idea.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by afflatus » Thu Dec 10, 2015 19:12

I haven't read all of this yet and I still haven't played Minecraft. When I started designing my subgame, I deliberately avoided looking at it, so I wasn't influenced. Players made references to Notch and Herobrine, so I had to look them up and discovered that I was a lot closer to Notch's original vision than I realised. I'm coming to the conclusion that it's all very well saying that MT shouldn't be like MC, but MC really has set the benchmarks for a voxel based digging / building game. Resistance is fertile ;-)

whateveralias wrote:I don't want it to be like Minecraft, because it already is like Minecraft.


Precisely.

I'm finding this thread amazingly useful for filling in the gaps in my subgame and building a development roadmap. I hope I can build a game that satifies most of these requirements. There may be a good argument for sidelining minetest_game in favour of a more polished sub-game.

M.Tester wrote:MineCraft has a serious avantage to MineTest.
You don't have to be a IT'er to install it or to use it.


Installing a package is pretty simple ... unless of course you're running some user-unfriendly OS like Windows. So, I guess what you're really saying is that you (or at least, your child) needs a user-friendly Windows installer, plus in-game mod installer?
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Calinou » Thu Dec 10, 2015 19:40

We can make NSIS installers for Windows, we just need someone to provide a good script with nice integration (optional start menu/desktop shortcuts, header and finish images).

Another choice is Inno Setup.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by kaeza » Fri Dec 11, 2015 00:26

Calinou wrote:We can make NSIS installers for Windows, we just need someone to provide a good script with nice integration (optional start menu/desktop shortcuts, header and finish images).

Another choice is Inno Setup.

Like, maybe, this?
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by afflatus » Fri Dec 11, 2015 02:27

"Czerwone jabłuszko przekrojone na krzyż
Czemu ty dziewczyno krzywo na mnie patrzysz ?

Gęsi za wodą, kaczki za wodą
Uciekaj dziewczyno bo Cię pobodą
Ty mi buzi dasz, ja Ci buzi dam
Ty mnie nie wydasz, ja Cię nie wydam."

Is that enough Polish for you now?
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by benrob0329 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 13:55

Something that makes the environment feel alive. I don't think that that's necessarily mobs. Perhaps it's the addition of both mobs and dynamic shadows?
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by afflatus » Fri Dec 11, 2015 15:46

rubenwardy wrote:It seems that developers currently want a playground for other programmers, rather than an actual game.

See Voxus, Minetest sucks for content creators and game designers.


I understand what you're saying here, but I also want to challenge it.

I have been looking for a game engine suitable for the game I want to build for some time. I looked long and hard at things like cube and python_soya3d. Minetest fits my requirements very well, particularly because of the Lua modding environment. I'm not anything like a professional game-designer or programmer, I'm a digital artist, who is capable of hacking up a script.

Minetest sucks if you only look at it as an Open Source drop-in replacement for MC. Notch's genius was to break several cardinal rules of game design and make it work. I'm having fun and learning a lot creating my own custom voxel sandbox, but it ain't gonna change the world. That's not what it's about for me.

I joke about game programming being my equivalent of sudoku, but it's not really a joke. I'm playing "the game" as much as anyone else; I usually ended up DMing when I played D&D. I see MC as a graphic MUD, I think minetest could be the graphic equivalent of MUSH. At least, that's my interest in it declared.

Kenney is a professional game-designer who has decided that minetest isn't the right engine for the game he wants to build; partly because his commitment to Open Source isn't strong. I know everyone got excited about voxus and it was a nice-looking game, but ...
Maybe I'll come back to this in another post.

It is useful and interesting to understand players' expectations coming from minecraft and from reading this thread I am beginning to understand why some players rubbish minetest by comparison. There are several clear repeated calls - the inclusion of mobs, client-side Lua et al. and my opinion on what might be best for minetest_game is shifting as a result.

I just feel the need to say I think minetest is potentially bigger than that (in scope) and it could be used to build a world-changing game (i.e. not YAMC clone), we just need to start thinking out of the selectionbox a bit more in terms of what "the game" actually is.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by jp » Fri Dec 11, 2015 16:10

I just quickly looked inside the Minecraft modding API, the biggest advantage is you can freely interact with the other core's classes, for maximum of flexibility. You're basically extending the engine with the simplicity of Java.

Some things are also very accurate, like the light level or node hardness (going from 1.0F to 2000.0F).
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by SamCinnamon » Sun Jan 03, 2016 20:34

Just my thoughts on what can be improved:
1. Mobs (skins, animations, personality)
- All mobs should have a consistent, clean look, and a good variety come pre-installed.
- Their animations can be better. (Swaying of the PC should be removed)
- Mobs should also interact with one another, rarely. (Wolf, sheep, etc.)

- Maybe add some people mobs that randomly appear and give the player quests or tasks to preform, (with rewards) making the world feel more alive? Their writing should be well done (similar to Zelda or jrpg games) to add personality to the game world. This would be much better than the boring villagers in vanilla Minecraft.

2. Sounds
- Sound effects can be improved, as well as atmospheric music added.

3. UI, Look, Usability
- Icons in the main menu are blurry.
- Add a button to reset keys to default.
- Way to easily resize window to fit screen within Minetest.
- More shaders and lighting options.
- Easy way to install the best mods and texture packs within Minetest, or a link to a top-rated list.
- Add controller support.

Other than that, Minetest is excellent. If the overall presentation can be improved, it'll be as good as or superior to other similar games.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by AccidentallyRhine » Mon Jan 04, 2016 03:51

Welcome to the forums, SamCinnamon. The Minetest developers are generally not also writers or musicians or modelers. If you want to see music, animals and game art the onus is on you to create, submit and promote it. Other than that, there is royalty free music and assets.

I like your idea of humanoid mobs that offer quests which is what I thought MC villagers would be when they were first announced. Perhaps their quest tasks could range from simply collecting default items or killing default monsters all the way to building structures and saving villages.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Tártar0 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 19:41

I think the best way to give a more lively atmosphere Minetest is to add ambient sounds. For example, when you approach a major source of water could be heard a swell , or a river noise closer to liquids moving. Some biomes may have its own atmospheric sounds , such as forests or deserts. They could also add random noise of birds in the distance.
Otherwise, a complement to the above would be to add new climates . I think there's already a mod that adds to it rains and storms.

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by TenPlus1 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 21:10

https://github.com/tenplus1/ambience

This is the lite version of Ambience mod used on Xanadu server which has been optimized for servers and contains many sounds.
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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by Neuromancer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 03:15

Tártar0 wrote:I think the best way to give a more lively atmosphere Minetest is to add ambient sounds. For example, when you approach a major source of water could be heard a swell , or a river noise closer to liquids moving. Some biomes may have its own atmospheric sounds , such as forests or deserts. They could also add random noise of birds in the distance.
Otherwise, a complement to the above would be to add new climates . I think there's already a mod that adds to it rains and storms.
You can also try this which has a fast load version and a bigger version with music:
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=2807. It has birds, flowing water, lava, splashing water, wolves, desert winds, coyotes, crickets, and many more.
 

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Re: What's Minetest still missing over Minecraft?

by benrob0329 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 02:21

There's something that seems smooth and polished when you look at MC, smooth camera movements, lighting, I don't think its about having a bunch of shaders, but just having an overall polished look and feel that's soft on the eyes.
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