Infinite world size

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 22:19
Next step with compatible network
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12142
After that please make biome generating above y=31000 possible. Thank you. Sad that rubenwardy don't accept more then one pull request. I see in future a clone of minetest which the high coords make possible.

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Re: Infinite world size

by proller » Post

For generating biomes just find all 31000 values in min/max biome definitions and change to <i dont know>

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Re: Infinite world size

by DOOM_possum » Post

what the heck does that do?? setting value to "i dont know"

sounds like something STEVE would do in minecraft

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:52
For generating biomes just find all 31000 values in min/max biome definitions and change to <i dont know>
OK i try again soon. But on proxima survival it do not work

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Re: Infinite world size

by Minix » Post

I updated my server to the latest Minetest32 version which features network compatibility with regular clients. There are a lot of problems, regular clients can only see about 4 mapblocks from where they spawned and cannot move further than that without using noclip, essentially as if there were world borders. I will make a more detailed bug report next week. For now you can join my test server at freedomtest-c2d.ddns.net:30032 or Minetest32 in the server list.

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

Yes you are right

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Re: Infinite world size

by proller » Post

core devs decide to close this prs.
minetest always will be limited to 64k...

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

proller wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 20:49
core devs decide to close this prs.
minetest always will be limited to 64k...
don't give up! Who said minetest will not cloned in future. I know allready who but there are only plans to time. Don't give up i want use worldlimit for my content. If you need it as depend or not…

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Re: Infinite world size

by Blockhead » Post

sfan5 wrote: Closed per coredev meeting today.
Whether increasing the world limit is worth doing/spending time on is unclear, individual improvements of this PR (such as replacing types) could be considered. There is agreement that a hard network incompatibility is not an option.
Other than knowing a lot of people still hold this '60k ought to be enough for everyone' mentality, I also hope Minetest core devs have good justifications outside of being afraid of more backlash from the same people that bemoaned 5.x breaking compatibility with 0.4.x. To be clear, there are very good reasons to avoid change, including to stop regressions like the break with how bounciness of nodes used to work. I think we all know Minetest is not ready for a 6.x yet, but I also don't see why this kind of change couldn't make its way into 6.x some time from now, being at that time well-architected, with automated tests all in place, and a plan for a clean break in compatibility with clear and easy upgrade paths.
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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 05:10
sfan5 wrote: Closed per coredev meeting today.
Whether increasing the world limit is worth doing/spending time on is unclear, individual improvements of this PR (such as replacing types) could be considered. There is agreement that a hard network incompatibility is not an option.
Other than knowing a lot of people still hold this '60k ought to be enough for everyone' mentality, I also hope Minetest core devs have good justifications outside of being afraid of more backlash from the same people that bemoaned 5.x breaking compatibility with 0.4.x. To be clear, there are very good reasons to avoid change, including to stop regressions like the break with how bounciness of nodes used to work. I think we all know Minetest is not ready for a 6.x yet, but I also don't see why this kind of change couldn't make its way into 6.x some time from now, being at that time well-architected, with automated tests all in place, and a plan for a clean break in compatibility with clear and easy upgrade paths.
What they mean with hard network break. The world-limit must not be infinite world size but it would be great if the world limit is more then ten times higher for proxima surival for example. I think I complain because i made proxima survival ready for this pr!!!!!!! without it i want not continue

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Re: Infinite world size

by Linuxdirk » Post

Blockhead wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 05:10
I also hope Minetest core devs have good justifications outside of being afraid of more backlash from the same people that bemoaned 5.x breaking compatibility with 0.4.x.
No, of course not. But since core devs officially decided to kill larger world sizes the only solution I see is a fork.
Blockhead wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 05:10
I think we all know Minetest is not ready for a 6.x yet, but I also don't see why this kind of change couldn't make its way into 6.x some time from now, being at that time well-architected, with automated tests all in place, and a plan for a clean break in compatibility with clear and easy upgrade paths.
Minetest was not ready for 1.0 release (not actually named 1.0 but with bogus version number 5.0), and no, we won’t see any breakage in 6.0 or larger worlds in 7.0, or 8.0, or 9.0. Even if major version change is the only real valid point for releasing backwards-incompatible versions.

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 17:50
I see is a fork.
Only because the minetest core devs not want not do this step…And i thought the minetest devs would be not do such wired things like mojang(they don't but that is really wired!)
If one of core devs read this:
Why you wanted not add it!? I am really sad because that this feature i wanted most. I am waiting for this feature long!!! Maybe thatcause, because other such thing minetest has such many clones!? Because community was oftener acid to you.
But I don't want to get too emotional now!

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Re: Infinite world size

by Festus1965 » Post

debiankaios wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 20:02
Why you wanted not add it!? I am really sad because that this feature i wanted most. I am waiting for this feature long!!! Maybe thatcause, because other such thing minetest has such many clones!? Because community was oftener acid to you.
But I don't want to get too emotional now!
Make a voting
and be sure I also will vote against, as
* most server worlds are not even 10 or maybe 30% used their now limited 64k world
* many server have already a problem with the data size from a limited world size map storage and started to use a mod to clean out areas to save disc space

And so far I was follow, nobody here pointed out what is the advantage of this no limitation.

WE other admins should visit the server of the people force this limitation and just walk in a special way through their server map, and back in about so far I calculated 160 nodes then back and grow their map disc usage until crash, then they get it also.
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Re: Infinite world size

by MisterE » Post

<edit, I was mistaken>

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Re: Infinite world size

by ShadMOrdre » Post

Since the nature of software development has been towards updating the software to take advantage of new features in hardware, I find the unwillingness to consider a refactor of the code from 32bit to 64bit to be the first nail in the coffin.

MT is awesome software. It should continue into the future indefinitely. It needs 64bit addressing. Preventing this key update for the sake of backwards compatibility is ignoring the breaking of backward compatibility due to updates in software libs and other key parts of the system required for compiling on Windows.

MT 5.0 does not work on Windows XP. While that was broken a while back, it is no longer "backward" compatible. What happens when MS decides that the newest compilers require Win11. Then compatibility with Win10 will be broken. Already, Win7,8, and 8.1 are in jeopardy having support dropped. And this isn't just as important for keeping backward compatibility????

At some point, the devs have decided that certain parts will no longer be backward compatible, for the sake of simply being able to compile the software on the latest system, whether that system is Windows or Linux.

Proller, I'd say keep working out any other kinks in your code, and please, for the love of MT, don't just drop this. As suggested above, resubmit as a new PR while addressing any issues that the devs may have expressed as concerns.

6.0 is a major update, where backward compatibility can and should at least be expected to maybe break.

And just consider this. While most folks won't see a point or have a desire to walk around in an infinite space with any of the current games, there are those of use who see MT as something for more than a "game engine". Yes, MTG gets boring in a single square kilometer, due to limited content and data, I can certainly say that GAL is short on spaces to put content. But again, those are "game" ideas.

MT is a voxel engine. It needs voxels.

Quit thinking of MT as nothing but a MC clone game engine. That is so limiting.


Shad

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

Pro:
* A game-dev can add new dimensions without squeeze(alternative: add new dimensions compatible)
* Bigger worlds for players.(There are some server(less) the have more then 10% loaded map and want to find areas where nobody else was.

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Re: Infinite world size

by Blockhead » Post

Festus1965 wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 00:00
* most server worlds are not even 10 or maybe 30% used their now limited 64k world
* many server have already a problem with the data size from a limited world size map storage and started to use a mod to clean out areas to save disc space
Add a world border mod and/or limit the generated area with that configuration option mapgen_limit. Add checks to your teleportation methods. Done, not an issue.
Festus1965 wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 00:00
And so far I was follow, nobody here pointed out what is the advantage of this no limitation.
Here's just a few points
  • Importing GIS data into Minetest. 60 km is approximately the size of a decent size city like Berlin or Amsterdam, but a bigger place like Perth will simply not fit.
  • Larger-scale map generators with mountains that rise slowly to great heights, and biomes where you can't see the next biome over from inside.
  • Decreasing the size of nodes to < 1 m quickly reduces the total size e.g. 0.1m = 6 km x 6 km instead of 60 x 60.
  • High-population servers that have run for a long time, and which have large builds. It can be hard to find an area that nobody else has settled yet, particularly if you want to settle in a particular biome. I know this is the exception rather than the rule, but I expect many servers will still be running 10 years from now. It's like thinking we would never run out of IPv4 addresses.
  • Long-distance advtrains lines, with trains running at 108 km/h or even higher.
  • You can travel in one direction a long way instead of having to zigzag and crisscross the map.
  • If we're meant to on par with Minecraft why do we have such a tiny world area? 2b2t ('Oldest anarchy server in Minecraft') players have travelled more than a million blocks out from origin. You probably view this is a nuisance and waste of your disk space though.
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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

You forgot few points for devs:
  • You can add more dimensions without squeeze
  • More testarea(Ok you can set the mapgen reset all the time but maybe you need builded things for future)
  • Special minigames like skyblock on minigames galore(To less space which we need to build it)

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Re: Infinite world size

by MisterE » Post

the reason this excellent feature was dropped is that:
1) this would cause obscure bugs that would have to be found. it would mean a lot of work for the devs. The devs want to focus on menu stuff right now (a formspec replacement).
2) it would require a network protocol breakage. that is unacceptable right now, it splits the community. Not enough features have been added to justify a 6.0 release in the near future.

Proller, keep this code up-to-date, and continue to test and debug it, and when 6.0 comes near, submit the PR then. Also consider separating out individual improvements that don't cause breakage, and submit those as PRs now.

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Re: Infinite world size

by 0siribix » Post

proller wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 20:49
core devs decide to close this prs.
minetest always will be limited to 64k...
There is a positive side to this. I truly believe if the product is superior that people will begin moving to it. Previously you were trying to keep some compatibility, correct? Well now you are free from that limitation and it should be easier to move forward in the direction you want

Personally, I am very interested in moving from Irrlicht to Godot. Maybe this is the time to look at doing this too. (For clarity, I've been considering taking on this task)

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

0siribix wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 13:04
Personally, I am very interested in moving from Irrlicht to Godot.
I hope that come not. I like godot but it insn't suitable for minetest. Rasons:
  • Godot is an gui-engine and irrlicht not. So the fit not
  • All mods wouldn't work anymore because godot has gdscript and not lua as lang
  • It's a full new game because irrlicht and godot are different egines, extreme differen!
MisterE wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:19
it would require a network protocol breakage
Wha tis a network protocol breqakage!?

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Re: Infinite world size

by Minix » Post

There seems to be a misunderstanding that increasing the world size will create a network compatibility breakage with older versions of the engine. Proller already demonstrated that inter-compatibility between regular 5.x Minetest and Minetest32 is possible.
minetest32_in_530.png
minetest32_in_530.png (251.62 KiB) Viewed 4961 times
I managed to connect to my Minetest32 server under a 5.3.0 client, a few months ago this was thought to be unfeasible. Many players running regular Minetest have been able to join the server as well, it seems that even some MultiCraft players (usernames Playerxxx) managed to get in. The issue with mapblocks not loading was fixed by Proller in a subsequent commit which I should have used instead of the original one from the third pull request in the first place.

I have not tested myself joining a regular 5.x server with a Minetest32 client yet, although the last PR was supposed to make that work as well.
proller wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 20:49
core devs decide to close this prs.
minetest always will be limited to 64k...
Their decision is reasonable taking into account that Minetest also needs a big graphics rework (IrrlichtMT and main menu redesign). However, support for bigger world sizes is an attractive feature that should not be overlooked. It is clear that the implementation made by Proller requires a lot more testing and bug-fixing and will not be ready for 5.6.0, but it will definitely not require a 5.0 style breaking release which is what most people fear. The only backwards-compatibility issue that does not seem to be addressed yet is loading Minetest32 worlds under older Minetest versions, this is just a minor incompatibility like the one introduced in 5.5.0 with the zstd compression algorithm and is probably not worth developing more compatibility code.

I hope this feature eventually makes its way into Minetest, I will certainly stay tuned for further development on this if Proller decides to continue.

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Re: Infinite world size

by 0siribix » Post

debiankaios wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 18:30
I hope that come not. I like godot but it insn't suitable for minetest. Rasons:
  • Godot is an gui-engine and irrlicht not. So the fit not
  • All mods wouldn't work anymore because godot has gdscript and not lua as lang
  • It's a full new game because irrlicht and godot are different egines, extreme differen!
1. The ways that MT make up for lack of features from Godot can be abandoned for native Godot features
2. https://gamefromscratch.com/lua-program ... me-engine/
Godot has LUA support via a native plugin. Mods can be made to work though some things (formspecs for example) may have to be rewritten. This isn't much different from updating to newer MT versions already
3. Yes I realize that they are very different engines which is utterly the point. One feature I am thrilled about is the work being done to support raytracing. That is something you will not likely ever see in Irrlicht

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Re: Infinite world size

by MirceaKitsune » Post

I can say I've been thinking of making my own Minecraft / Minetest like engine in Godot, to benefit from better performance modern lighting with shaders and of course new concepts like customizable block sizes. Already did a procedural terrain generator based on marching cubes, however smooth terrain is kinda weird and limited for gameplay, thus I may go for something like this next.

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Re: Infinite world size

by debiankaios » Post

0siribix wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 23:34
One feature I am thrilled about is the work being done to support raytracing. That is something you will not likely ever see in Irrlicht
https://blog.rubenwardy.com/2018/09/07/ ... asteriser/
That's one of the coredev! There would be maybe little changes but thats all. But nevevmind this anything for another topic.

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