[Game] A Tome With Trials [WIP]

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[Game] A Tome With Trials [WIP]

by sofar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 08:12

I've been playing with lots of small ideas to improve on minetest gameplay, and even contributed some mods, tools, etc. to add realism, gameplay. However, lately I've been feeling overwhelmed with the things I'd like to change (it's just too long of a list), and so, ultimately, I think I need to do the following to create it:

1. Make a new subgame
2. Create a team of people to help

So, this thread is my invitation, to everyone, to come and help me realize this new minetest subgame.

A word of notice: I do not expect this subgame to be easy to do. I suspect it will take me a year or two before I think most of the technical hurdles are actually solved to making all the parts doable. In the mean time, we can start simple and work on low hanging fruit parts of the plan. Also, not everything is set in stone, but I have strong stylistic feelings about the project and how things should be done, so I foresee discussions that may take a while to resolve (which will be fun!).

The project would be hosted in a new github group. Developers joining the project would get commit access directly, no pull requests needed (ideally).

%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%

A Tome With Trials

This subgame aims to provide an enjoyable single-player story, set in an open world. The hero, our single player character, is free to build and explore an unbounded map in any direction. The setting is pre-industrial, non-fantasy, for the most part. Coal is something you burn in a forge, you cook on a stove or campfire. There are no trains, but primitive railcars exist, and miners have discovered that Topaz crystals, when properly tempered, act as an electricity generator that can be used to power devices with copper wires. There's no such thing as Mese, The last sentence before this one, and this sentence should be removed.

Things aren't as easy as making a wooden pickaxe with wood to get stone blocks. Wood doesn't make a dent in rocks, instead a hammer allows the player to get gravel. The gravel however has flint, making a nice flint axe which marks your first weapon. Or maybe you're the kind that prefers a stone -tipped spear. Stone rock hammers are great for bashing rocks, though, and allow the player to mine tin, which is an excellent metal to make light tools like a bucket, shears, or a hoe. Stone swords are entirely unpractical, since they shatter in a blow, you'll have to mine for copper.

As you can see the player will have a bit more trouble going through ore types, and there's a natural progression that's somewhat logical and ordered. After copper comes bronze, which, after leather, is the first strong armor type. Gold and Silver exist, but are limited in usefulness and only need to be mined to make electrical components.

The world itself is full of dangers, but living at the surface is relatively safe. There are some dangerous animals around, but they're usually scattered. It gets a bit more dangerous in the mines. Villages can be found in nearby locations, but the player may have to travel over 1km to find one, they're not prevalent at all. Npc's in the villages offer quests of some sorts, and limited exchanges of goods. Living in a village may sound beneficial, but the villagers... at night... I'm kidding. Or maybe not.

Travelling and cave exploring, the player finds several books that hint to otherworldly places. Some books speak of places deep in the belly of the earth, while others write lengthily about floating islands with rich treasures. These areas seem like a treasure trove to explore, but they are filled with dangers that require the player to stock up on food, armor and consumables to survive the perilous under and over worlds.

Besides armor, which can be enchanted, and weapons, potions are vital. They can be crafted simply by combining a potion bottle with water and several ingredients, which makes a mixture, and then cooking that mixture on a fire. Potions themselves can also be combined, and some potions appear to have no effect until they are combined with others. The alchemy knowledge is hard to find, but finding enough books scattered over the world may reveal enough clues to dare the player to create a few potions himself.

From long-lost books the player discovers that a horrendous peril is threatening the entire world, promising to destroy all the wealth and riches of the land, and turning monsters loose in the entire world. The only solution is to attack the fiend head-on, and it appears that the monster can be summoned.... right on the surface, releasing the world in to darkness, but giving the opportunity for the player to destroy it's nemesis. While battling the nemesis, however, and forever more afterwards, the shards of the fiend remain on the world, causing destruction and chaos all over.

( end of player storyline )

%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%

How is this going to work in-game?

- modified nether and flolands mapgen for high/low areas to create under and over worlds
- randomly spawned villages, dungeons, ruins, even primitive roads
- random story books can be found all over the world. Some provide funny stories, some songs, some provide alchemy hints, clues, some are just cryptic. Some books contain well hidden recipes and are only found in particular places (e.g. overworld), others are found commonly (village bookcase)
- some transport mechanism to get to underworld (a nether portal, perhaps). Getting to the overworld probably requires crafting some special portal with a ledge
- npcs offer rewards for farming actions, providing some replay value and grinding rewards for players who like that, access to books or potions
- mods to provide item enchantments in some way
- a solid stat model, maybe something based on health,armor and stamina
- a good food/drink model. Cooking fires for cooking food. A stove may be a more efficient way to cook food (less fuel needed, but still slow)
- forges for forging/smelting. Anvil for blacksmithing. Effort is required to get a forge running, it's not just sticks. A fan unit is needed to blow air, requiring topaz, to work the toughest metals.
- crafting overhauled. Harder to farm (see crops) and less freebies (apples). Some animals are useful or non-aggressive, but there are those that attack as well.

What else?

- solid 16px bitmaps, no discussion, no excuse. All inventory images are 16px as well. (someone making a separate 32x texture pack can of course do so).
- all formspecs are themed, including chests, signs, bookcases and books with appropriate 16px-like textures
- world dynamics. The world changes, slowly. E.g. 'sedimentology' mod. Some plants spread naturally, others may die.
- weather. rain or snow or hail or ... may need core modifications.
- a solid reduction of useless items and useless crafts from some of the used mods. Fences yes, but not 250 homedecor items. I'm fine with 6-8 types of wood, as long as there are stairs, fences and slabs for all of those. Wool carpet, wool blocks.
- renaming of many, many basic blocks. Mese -> topaz. Ore lumps are fine. Mese wire -> copper wire (cmon, of course wire is made of copper). Tin is needed to make logic blocks, and quartz, and topaz, and copper... so mesecons recipes will need quite a redesign.
- mobs. All of them, will need to be redone. Mobs animations are terrible, including the default player animation, all need to be spiced up. Some better way of choosing skins.
- npcs that give out quests, or rewards. Trading is a very, very simple interface, not a vending machine (suitable for single-player is having 5 random npc's rewarding random rewards, not a village full with the same vending machines).
- textures, textures, textures. If you know my "crops" mod, you'll know what style I mean. Lots of pixellation, but all suggestive and not "hello kitty" cartoon style. Avoid moire and "streaking" effects for landscape blocks.
- no... nyan... cats
- translations, but not until the game is somewhat well underway (english only to start).
- lastly (well, probably not lastly) I consider a lot of blocks in minetest "randomly added experiments" that were never really well done. I intend to heavily cut into blocks that make no sense (coal checker blocks anyone?) and just clutter the inventory


So who can help?

- Everyone. This is your fair shot. I have extensive experience in the Computer Science world mentoring and tutoring software engineers, and I am willing and capable of teaching you all the skills you need to do this as a project with me. Do you want to program mods, paint textures, write books for in-the-game? All that is needed. Although most of the work will be mod work (lua), I foresee plenty of help needed for testers, and later on for translators. I've coached people through all of these projects, and done them myself, so come learn with me!

In return for my coaching, I do expect people to allow me to make the artistic decisions, so that the end result is not something that looks and feels "randomly gobbled together" but has a coherent feel and smell. That can only happen if the elements of the storyline, the world itself and the parameters of the game play are working together. Don't worry, there will be plenty of open bits to solve later, and things that may just not work out the way we, or I want.


Who's in? Reply to thread!

First public contribution will be: a kick-ass project name!
Last edited by sofar on Wed Nov 02, 2016 16:25, edited 3 times in total.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by firefox » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:49

ok, that was a lot to read and since it is just a plan, i would suggest to move it to "Subgame Discussions".
(that is the place where i posted about my subgame, because i don't offer a download yet.)

2 questions:

1. if you need a hammer to break stone and every other hard material, but wood tools won't do it, how do you get the materials to make the hammer?

2. you said that the theme is non-fanatsy, but you include alchemy, magic worlds and summoned monsters.
so?


and lastly to do something helpful:

for textures:
- some 16x minecraft texture packs are free to use as long as you credit the original authors
- you can use those and edit them, i do it too

for your mods:
- scattering books: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7292&hilit=treasure

for the name:
- decide on what it should look like (fantasy or not or a combination of magic and steampunk?)
- then it should be easier

some suggestions:
- Trinity (refers to the 3 worlds)
- Treasure Hunter (if you focus on the story and finding treasures in the other worlds)
- Final Minetesty (because the story of a magic enemy invading a steampunk world sounds like a Final Fantasy story)
- Alchymia (if you make alchemy a main feature and use more than just potions. like fusing materials together to create new blocks and tools.


that is all i can think of.
but if you want something that i made/will make in my subgame (viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13492) i will share it with you. :)
building inspiration: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15550 --- my game: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=15860 --- =(^.^)= nyan~
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 15:20

firefox wrote:1. if you need a hammer to break stone and every other hard material, but wood tools won't do it, how do you get the materials to make the hammer?


wooden hammers can be used to create flint by hitting stone blocks.

firefox wrote:2. you said that the theme is non-fanatsy, but you include alchemy, magic worlds and summoned monsters.
so?


I was referring to the ore / tool model, there will be plenty of fantasy with alchemy and floating islands.

firefox wrote:for textures:
- some 16x minecraft texture packs are free to use as long as you credit the original authors
- you can use those and edit them, i do it too

for your mods:
- scattering books: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7292&hilit=treasure

for the name:
- decide on what it should look like (fantasy or not or a combination of magic and steampunk?)


thanks for the suggestions, I intend to slowly recreate textures over time, instead of using them from others. Reused textures don't feel right, as usually they were painted by someone with a particular style, and that is not something you want to mix. The Treasurer mod is likely going to be very useful.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by firefox » Tue Dec 01, 2015 17:36

Reused textures don't feel right, as usually they were painted by someone with a particular style, and that is not something you want to mix.

i agree on that, but some of them are very similar and fit well together.
also i edit them to make the colours match. actually i only need the patterns, because i can't draw that, but the colours doesn't matter to me.

i use pixel perfection, wayukian pack and sanity.
not every texture is how i like it, but by choosing the best of each, i get everything how i want it to be.
some texture packs have very nice stones and bricks, but the sand looks like ice cream. others have really good sand, but the cobble and the stone bricks are almost identical. and sometimes the default minetest textures are the most fitting. e.g. the surface of grass blocks, i haven't found any alternative texture for it that looks better than the default.

i like it how you replied to each of my notes, but you didn't comment on the name suggestions. do you not like them?
building inspiration: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15550 --- my game: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=15860 --- =(^.^)= nyan~
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 18:06

firefox wrote:i like it how you replied to each of my notes, but you didn't comment on the name suggestions. do you not like them?


I'd like to keep the discussion open by not commenting just yet, so others can suggest and/or discuss ;^)
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by kaadmy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 18:29

Ahem :)
My subgame seems to fit your description fairly well, except for the ore ordering part.
Pixture
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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 18:49

kaadmy wrote:My subgame seems to fit your description fairly well, except for the ore ordering part.


I tried your subgame yesterday, but after flying over an unplayable forest for 10 minutes I logged off.

I really don't like your textures, they're absolutely not my style (sorry, no offense - I get that some players like this style, it's just not my cake)

I may try again to find any generated villages, but I'll have a look at your code as well.

I don't see any storyline of any sorts, is there such a thing in your subgame?
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by kaadmy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 21:01

The readme says to never use mapgen v6, it causes tree overloads...

My subgame is supposed to minimalist survival styled, there's no story.
Never paint white stripes on roads near Zebra crossings.

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Tue Dec 01, 2015 21:39

kaadmy wrote:The readme says to never use mapgen v6, it causes tree overloads...


You can use a mod to force a certain mapgen, You probably want to at least attempt to change the default to mgv7, otherwise other people will see the same problems (see the other reply about not seeing villages in your subgame thread).

kaadmy wrote:My subgame is supposed to minimalist survival styled, there's no story.


Right, that's only part of the puzzle that I'm looking for, though. There's certainly very useful code in it, I will certainly cooperate or reuse that.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by paramat » Wed Dec 02, 2015 05:26

I don't have much time to spare but i can help with the editing and tuning of a floatlands mod to the requirements.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Wed Dec 02, 2015 07:05

paramat wrote:I don't have much time to spare but i can help with the editing and tuning of a floatlands mod to the requirements.


Thanks, The islands currently are razor thin, I'd like to give them a thicker appearance, possibly more having more of them closer together horizontally (so you can visually see the next island over at ~100 block viewing range), and maybe some more tweaks.

But, I'll ping you when that becomes relevant. Thanks!
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by firefox » Wed Dec 02, 2015 07:48

sofar wrote:The islands currently are razor thin, I'd like to give them a thicker appearance, possibly more having more of them closer together horizontally (so you can visually see the next island over at ~100 block viewing range)

that is something i want to accomplish too (in the future)
maybe a documentation of the parameter settings for easy editing of floatlands would help.
building inspiration: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15550 --- my game: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=15860 --- =(^.^)= nyan~
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by kaadmy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 17:23

sofar wrote:
kaadmy wrote:The readme says to never use mapgen v6, it causes tree overloads...


You can use a mod to force a certain mapgen, You probably want to at least attempt to change the default to mgv7, otherwise other people will see the same problems (see the other reply about not seeing villages in your subgame thread).

The villages not appearing is also a problem with mapgen v7, I think. I know someone that started a server with v7 and villages don't work.
I don't want to force the mapgen to v7; v5 also works.
Never paint white stripes on roads near Zebra crossings.

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Wed Dec 02, 2015 22:56



ahhh, those look a lot better, especially the second one.

Are these island capable of spawning schematics like the others? That should make it really easy to do what I want it to.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by paramat » Thu Dec 03, 2015 00:04

Actually fracture can make a mess at the moment as it often reaches down to y = 1, it would probably need to be edited, also lighting in that mod is buggy. Floatindev creates horizontal layers of floatlands realms, but has only a very simple single biome. Anyway later i could edit one of those.
Either of these can have code edited to place schematics, we can even use the default mod tree schematics.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Thu Dec 03, 2015 00:48

paramat wrote:Actually fracture can make a mess at the moment as it often reaches down to y = 1, it would probably need to be edited, also lighting in that mod is buggy. Floatindev creates horizontal layers of floatlands realms, but has only a very simple single biome. Anyway later i could edit one of those.
Either of these can have code edited to place schematics, we can even use the default mod tree schematics.


YMIN=-32 ... yeah, I'll bump that to a reasonable height, I'm not sure whether I want to make floatlands visible from the ground yet or not, or whether I want them up much higher. Experimentation will tell.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by red-001 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 23:40

Sounds interesting (and achievable). I might help out if I have time.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by rubenwardy » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:37

Bump! As part of Voxel Legends, my rpgtest fork, I'm making NPCs that walk in a village and can give out quests
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by MineYoshi » Mon Jul 11, 2016 21:11

I'm offering myself to translate the game to Spanish, when you think is ready!
-Maybe i will do some blocks, items and the textures (some).
Looks great!
I like the idea of a story and a unstoppable evil force that wants to immerse the world in darkness.
My english is astonishing.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by Gael de Sailly » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:46

9 months after… is the project still alive ?
I've tried a lot of subgames, for me no one is good enough. Every one has its flaws. So I think that making a good subgame alone is nearly impossible, and subgames should be developed by a team.
I've read all of the plan, and I agree with all of it.
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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Mon Sep 19, 2016 23:10

Gael de Sailly wrote:9 months after… is the project still alive ?
I've tried a lot of subgames, for me no one is good enough. Every one has its flaws. So I think that making a good subgame alone is nearly impossible, and subgames should be developed by a team.
I've read all of the plan, and I agree with all of it.


If only I could get some traction on my own Mobs API, :)

Seriously though, yes we should open a repo and start deciding what code to use, and how to organize the re-use of mods etc.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by sofar » Tue Sep 20, 2016 16:43

Choices:

a) name:

I've been using `trials` as a working name for now in my notes. I'd like to change it to `Trials of ....` something, but I haven't come up with anything I like yet. I've considered `Forge of Exploits` as an alternative, as a hint that crafting is a necessary ingredient to surviving the world's dangers.

b) project organization:

Ideally, we rely on upstream mod development and make minimal changes to mods, suggesting that we should `fork` minetest_game and use git submodules to pull in other mods and game components. This makes the project more like a `modpack`, but git submodules are difficult to maintain if we're starting to make changes.

The alternative is to *just* have a git tree and merge code bits as needed. We'll incur the full cost of maintaining said code, so this offers flexibility at the cost of maintenance. I'm not inclined to do this just yet.

A lot of things can be done with `minetest.override_item` and even crafting recipes can be removed, but I'm left to wonder if that's really wanted and makes things more flexible to begin with.

For the sake of simplicity we just may want to start with an empty git tree and slowly build up items.


*please comment on these 2 items* - I'll start a tree if we can come to a good agreement and write down some guidelines to get a decent and well-organized start.
 

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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by Gael de Sailly » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:55

sofar wrote:A lot of things can be done with `minetest.override_item` and even crafting recipes can be removed, but I'm left to wonder if that's really wanted and makes things more flexible to begin with.

For my part, I'm against overriding. It may create confusion, and some mods might do something with the item def before it is redefined. I think it's cleaner to directly modify the code as long as we have the files history with the git repo (so no need to keep the original files unchanged).
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Re: [Game]A new subgame (... to be named ...)[PLAN]

by cd2 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 08:13

Gael de Sailly wrote:
sofar wrote:A lot of things can be done with `minetest.override_item` and even crafting recipes can be removed, but I'm left to wonder if that's really wanted and makes things more flexible to begin with.

For my part, I'm against overriding. It may create confusion, and some mods might do something with the item def before it is redefined. I think it's cleaner to directly modify the code as long as we have the files history with the git repo (so no need to keep the original files unchanged).

+1
 

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