[Game] MineClone2 [0.86]

Cranriold
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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Cranriold » Post

It's nice to see the great improvement of the Nether with biomes and mob placement more and more properly looking like Minecraft.

If I have to point out one difference though it's that the Mineclone Nether at the moment looks more like a giant cave system than an open field that we see in Minecraft Nether from time to time. But I'm hopeful that this will be further improved in the future updates.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by corasTenthTry » Post

that's because it literally is a cave system - it's just the v7 mapgen where stone gets turned to netherrack.

I've experimented with doing a full lua mapgen for it but it is significantly slower so idk.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Cranriold » Post

It'd be nice if that new mapgen was instead integrated upstream so that it wouldn't be slow. Have you tried suggesting it to them?

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by bananicorn » Post

It seems that no villages are spawning in the newest version, can anybody else confirm or contradict this? I am seeing zero mentions of the word village in the server log even after minutes of flying around in fast mode.

Also, the new structures are awesome, but I suggest making the portals more rare, they are too frequent in the worlds that I have been playing with :)

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by corasTenthTry » Post

you don't necessarily find a village after 5 minutes ... i can assure you they are still there. Their code wasn't touched either, so it would be fairly surprising....

try v7 seed "apple"

there's a village right at spawn (sometimes it hides on the other side of the mountain).

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by mrkaras » Post

I made a test world to test for another issue and I found a village. I haven't seen any in the worlds I seen playing normally but this one defiantly had a village, I didn't notice it for some time, till I saw it lighting up at night, presumably it was always there

Anyway the issue I were noticing was with nether portals, is it a known thing that they no longer work properly? I can go from my portal to the nether but coming back will always generate an overworld portal rather than using the one I went in

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by corasTenthTry » Post

mrkaras wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 06:40
Anyway the issue I were noticing was with nether portals, is it a known thing that they no longer work properly? I can go from my portal to the nether but coming back will always generate an overworld portal rather than using the one I went in
I don't think anything about that has changed. It never worked every time but it still does work *sometimes* - i just tested it and on first try it went back to the orginal portal.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by bananicorn » Post

corasTenthTry wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 20:49
you don't necessarily find a village after 5 minutes ... i can assure you they are still there. Their code wasn't touched either, so it would be fairly surprising....

try v7 seed "apple"

there's a village right at spawn (sometimes it hides on the other side of the mountain).
Thank you cora, it seems my perception of how (un)common villages are was wrong, or perhaps I got incredibly unlucky with my seeds. But I believe a village should be as common or perhaps even more common than the ruined portals, so I think the portals should be brought down a little, as portals are practically everywhere in the several worlds I tried, sometimes I can see two others from one of them. :)

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by corasTenthTry » Post

Yeah ruined portals are too common rn (all of the new structures actually, portals are just the only ones that spawn in all biomes and regardless of height).

It's somewhat on purpose (for now) so people find them and they hence get lots of testing.

But yeah sometimes it can be hard to find a village. When we switch villages to use the new structure placement api as well I'll make them a bit more common

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Nemesis » Post

I'm glad to hear portals will be toned back in a future release. They're way too common right now, and since each comes with a chest that often contains diamonds they make a lot of early development moot.

Villages do exist in the mapgen, but they're rather rare in my experience. If you want villages everywhere try a v6 map, though that will be missing other minor items, like animals. :P

Personally I think they should be more common than they are. Glad to see that's also planned for later.

One thing that's been bugging me. Having tried flying around in dozens of seeds I just can't find reeds for paper/sugar anywhere. Are they supposed to be spawning but aren't, or are they supposed to be a rare chest item?

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by PrairieWind » Post

Nemesis wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 02:31
One thing that's been bugging me. Having tried flying around in dozens of seeds I just can't find reeds for paper/sugar anywhere. Are they supposed to be spawning but aren't, or are they supposed to be a rare chest item?
They do generate. I am not sure what mapgen setting you use, but in v7, you can typically find them along water fronts. I mainly find them in deserts and jungles, but sometimes in other places.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by killuafromdc » Post

Hi, I just found out there was an update and wanted to try it out.
I played with the campfire. Its doing [fire] damage when I stand on it (haven't tried it on mobs yet). However, I couldn't figure out how to cook or place potatoes or fishes on the campfire. Am I missing something?
Using Minetest 5.5.1 btw.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by PrairieWind » Post

killuafromdc wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 13:20
Hi, I just found out there was an update and wanted to try it out.
I played with the campfire. Its doing [fire] damage when I stand on it (haven't tried it on mobs yet). However, I couldn't figure out how to cook or place potatoes or fishes on the campfire. Am I missing something?
Using Minetest 5.5.1 btw.
That isn't implemented yet. If you want to cook food with it, lure the animals to it, cooked food once it kills the animal, and infinite fuel. Smoke is also something that I will need to add soon, especially before bees are added.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by alizard » Post

Is there a way I can swap the place and break buttons?

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Midnight Sapphire » Post

any plans on adding leads

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Wuzzy » Post

My second-biggest problem with Minecraft was always that there are many gameplay features that are not obvious or discoverable at all without some help or hint from someone else who knows it.

The most obvious one is the Nether portal. With the ruined portals this is now a little bit better but new players still don't really understand what you're supposed to do. You MIGHT have the idea to complete the obsidian frame on your own, but that's not enough. You also must know how to actually open the portal.

But there are other things: Spawning the wither, the iron golem, the snow golem, powering a conduit, healing a zombie villager, powering a beacon, and more. This is all pretty non-obvious key gameplay features. How is the player supposed to know the magic structures that spawn a special mob? Figuring these out on your own is near-impossible, you don't even know that there is such a thing as mob-spawning structures.

It would be nice if the MineClone games (MCL2/MCL5/Mineclonia/whatever) would make these things more discoverable. However, I'm not really sure how. There could be many ideas. Maybe a "structure guide" (analog to the crafting guide)? As for the zombie villager healing, I really don't have any idea except writing that outright in a book item. (But the original Minecraft avoids written text or any backstory like the plague). These are not serious suggetions, I’m sure there might be better alternatives.

I think this is one of the things that Minecraft just does completely wrong, and a good clone would be justified to do it better. :-)

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j0j0n4th4n
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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by j0j0n4th4n » Post

It would be nice if the MineClone games (MCL2/MCL5/Mineclonia/whatever) would make these things more discoverable. However, I'm not really sure how. There could be many ideas.
What about an building designed for teaching a game system? Minecraft has an igloo where the player can discover how to cure zombie villagers, a similar idea could be used to teach how to make a golem in Mineclone for example
cdb_894a100ddd76

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Midnight Sapphire » Post

How do i give villagers professions?

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by corasTenthTry » Post

Midnight Sapphire wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 00:36
How do i give villagers professions?
Place a jobsite blocks next to them. Except the lectern we have all of them now (use a bookshelf for librarian for now).
https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Villa ... ite_blocks
Wuzzy wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 09:16
My second-biggest problem with Minecraft was always that there are many gameplay features that are not obvious or discoverable at all without some help or hint from someone else who knows it.
Z villager curing is in the igloo basement ^^ (Works in mcl2 minus the weakness potion)

For beacons i just had the idea to maybe make a 2nd variant of the desert temple with a half destroyed gold tip and beacon maybe.

For withers maybe something like a half blow up chamber underground with lots of soul sand and a couple of wither skulls in a chest.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by DOOM_possum » Post

yes there are many directions for such a Game with zombies to go, with INFINITE dimensions, and Big Dungeons

but i'm sure we want to keep it close to home, before we start unlocking some of those ancient oak wood chests

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Midnight Sapphire » Post

is there a mod that adds a lead

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Wuzzy » Post

I wonder, did anyone ever figure out zombie villager curing on their own, tho? Even with the igloo? I think I would never have considered this possibility in like 1000 years.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Blockhead » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 07:39
I wonder, did anyone ever figure out zombie villager curing on their own, tho? Even with the igloo? I think I would never have considered this possibility in like 1000 years.
And that's exactly the sort of problem you were right to complain about. I would say that only an extreme % of people would ever find and think to replicate such a thing.

It's a hallmark of earlier and worse game designs of the past that you often had to read the developers' minds or drive yourself insane thinking about solutions. For example, some of the rubbish 90's point and click games where you end up using every item against every visible object in every scene to progress. This is not to exclude somewhat-legitimate exercises in exploration like finding collectibles in the open world or in each level, though those sometimes have egregious hiding spots as well. For some of these games, the explanation or the tools you needed could be found in their paper manuals; this is still not as nice as discoverability in-game.

I think that game developers hiding things does sit on a spectrum of outcomes. At best, curious players are rewarded for persistence and creative thinking. At worst, you put someone playing the game in that space of mind of "oh, I've just wasted hours trying to figure out this stupid game. I think I'll just leave, I can feel my life sapping away.".

Also, I'm fairly sure a lot of the time the point in these games with hidden collectibles was to force people who wanted to 'properly' complete the game to go buy first-party or third-party licensed "game guide books". Those books would have a full story walkthrough, per-level strategy guide or so on depending on the type of game and how it progresses. They would also have maps and screenshots of all collectibles, and lists of cheat codes. This would drives direct sales money for extra items on top of the base game. In this internet wiki era, this tactic can be adapted to drive more people to spend more time on a wiki that runs ads, in order to make money off ad revenue. This doesn't happen for many games and many games have first-party wikis without ads, or third party wikis that don't financially contribute to the developer/publisher, or the content is found on video sites like YouTube or database sites like Wowhead.

In the end though, I think any 'clone' project has to fall in line with the principles of the original. In this case, I'd say Mineclone games basically have their hands tied in a duty to be faithful to the original. Minecraft is very much a game full of arcane mechanics and odd discoveries, and always has been really, even down to how early versions of the game had NO craft guide and NO item/block names visible in the inventory. Therefore Minecraft clones should replicate that. That's kind of annoying to say as we might disagree with the original game's design, but really, it just proves the point again that clones are not as good as creating something original.
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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Cranriold » Post

One problem this spectrum of "Is this exploration or is this bad game design?" is finding where to draw the line. If there are players who did enjoy that aspect of figuring things out like how Minecraft can be enjoyed by different types of players then isn't it possible that this too is just part of the game design itself?

I've heard people praise that exact aspect of the game. There are people who do not want a game to give up all of its secrets and make the player loose motivation after knowing there's nothing left to discover.

I've even heard reviews saying this particular "design" encourages cooperation and community participation by making sure not everyone has the full information thereby encouraging them to interact with other people.

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Re: [Game] MineClone 2 [0.77.0]

by Blockhead » Post

Cranriold wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:35
One problem this spectrum of "Is this exploration or is this bad game design?" is finding where to draw the line. If there are players who did enjoy that aspect of figuring things out like how Minecraft can be enjoyed by different types of players then isn't it possible that this too is just part of the game design itself?
You're correct, exploration-based design isn't inherently invalid, I just don't like it in the extreme personally.
Cranriold wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:35
I've heard people praise that exact aspect of the game. There are people who do not want a game to give up all of its secrets and make the player loose motivation after knowing there's nothing left to discover.
This is easy for a proprietary product written in a compiled or bytecode language and obfuscated, not so much for Minetest. Really, as much as discovery can be fun, dataminers and so on will usually suck the fun out of it. I leave it up to a person's own responsibility and self control not to harm their discovery experience if they value discovery. This is why I often avoid game wikis for games like Terraria like this plague. That game had fairly good guidance and didn't spoil itself, but going online you will quickly have your discovery experience ruined.
Cranriold wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:35
I've even heard reviews saying this particular "design" encourages cooperation and community participation by making sure not everyone has the full information thereby encouraging them to interact with other people.
Someone still has to fully understand the product: the game development team. Which in MineClone's game is everybody. There's no hiding from the source code in Minetest. Sure, there is never an end to exploring what you have, which is what so many Minecraft players have done for countless hours. However, the true joy in my opinion comes from shaping what comes next. Microsoft have only been able to prolong Minecraft's lifespan by continuing to add features to the base game and generating hype around that. The joy of Minetest is "What's next for our game?" really is up to the community, not a small studio.

Anyway I have written enough about why I don't agree with Minecraft's and by extension Mineclone's design philosophy. Please, go and continue to enjoy the game as you were, and I'll continue to stick to other games I think.
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