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CSMods should not be on forum until Server-sent CSM is added

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 23:47
by paramat
Releasing 0.4.16 stable with client-provided CSM but without server CSM controls was of course a big mistake that has caused a lot of controversy and disruption.
Server CSM restrictions will be present in MT 5.0.0, but until then we obviously should not be encouraging CSM or allowing CSMods on the forum as servers do not yet have the necessary defences against exploitation and cheating.

We already disallow potentially harmful CSMods in this subforum. However, there will be particular servers and situations where a CSMod that initially 'seems' harmless will be disruptive or simply undesirable to the server admin. It is impossible to tell what CSMods will be disruptive or undesirable.
Server CSM restrictions will be able to disable the use of any CSMod, because of this, we should not allow any CSMod on the forum whether it seems harmless or not.

Client-provided CSM (CPSCM) was not a planned or widely agreed feature, it was not mentioned in the MT TODO documentation about CSM. It is only a development step towards the actual feature that is server-provided CSM (SSCSM). Celeron55 and sme other core devs feel that CPCSM without SSCSM is pointless. Some core devs feel that CPCSM should not be a feature at all.

So, CPCSM was not only released in a harmful state but is also low-priority.
The CSMods released so far here are mostly trivial and fairly boring, there are 5 different CSMods for coloured chat and many of the others are for dicking about with chat. So it will not be a loss. It's only a few months until MT 5.0.0 anyway.

I request that this subforum be deleted and CSMods be disallowed on the forum (and on official IRC channels) until MT 5.0.0 is released.
If a mistake is made in software development that causes a vunerability, you do not then support the distribution of exploits of that vunerability, this is obvious :)

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EDIT:
Update to my opinion, i feel CSMods should not be on the forum until SSCSM is completed. CSM is not complete until SSCSM is complete

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 09:44
by Enrikoo
Thx for info.

You know I got hacked in some servers because: Using CSM by smart peoples.
I am so happy but now I can't use Chat Color but that doesn't matter :)

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 23:47
by Stix
Envelopes initially seem harmless, yet its possible to slit someones throat with it, but i don't see country's banning them.

Just saying.

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 23:08
by ChimneySwift
So is this the final say? Will this forum just be deleted and we shouldn't post any more here?

I understand the problems with CSM, but ultimately the people who are likely to use CSMs for the purpose of cheating are unlikely to cause problems because cheating destroys the fun of the game, and people who keep playing while cheating are unlikely to get far or will get banned for other reasons. Not to mention that these are hardly cheats, I used xray once, you realize how much slower it is to use that than to mine like a normal person?

I guess it's not that big of a deal. People who really want their trivial and boring CSMs for dicking around in chat can just find them through other means meanwhile.

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 08:14
by twoelk
deleting a thread?
oh please be very carefull with that!
rather hide the thread until it is "safe" again (if that is possible)

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 15:24
by Lone_Wolf
Delete it here and another place to post CSMs might pop up. You wouldn't be able to control that (I don't think) either. I was also planning on releasing a server moderation CSM soon too. It helps a lot with moderating HOMETOWN
EDIT: What about a thread for mods that prevent CSM? Like the color_chat CSM

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:42
by ChimneySwift
Lone_Wolf wrote:Like the color_chat CSM
Don't even need a mod. It's an engine setting. I think people are overreacting about all the bad things CSM "could" do, rather than what people are likely to use it for (believe it or not, most people are generally good people).

Re: CSMods should not be allowed on the forum until MT 5.0.0

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 15:26
by aristotle
My 2 cents.

First of all: I still consider myself a MineTest newbie, so please do not give me a credit I might not deserve.
Second: I am an ITC guy and as such I have had to delve with lots of annoying stuff (viruses, malware, breaches, passwords recovery, secure connections, wifi, ...) and for this reason I guess I understand both the closed and open approaches to the problem.
Lone_Wolf wrote:Delete it here and another place to post CSMs might pop up. You wouldn't be able to control that (I don't think) either.
Definitely. Censorship is never an option.
EDIT: (e.g. internet censorship exists, but VPNs can and do circumvent it).
Lone_Wolf wrote:...What about a thread for mods that prevent CSM?
That might be a better approach in my opinion too. More info sharing and knowledge base than censorship: this has taken cryptography (and consequently security) at the next level.
(..sorry paramat, and... BTW: thank you for all that you have been coding for our amusement!)
I think that having something open that can always be closed, is better than not having it, or having a very minimal set of it: if the server owner(s) can choose.

I would give to the servers administrators the freedom to choose which approach is best for them, instead of limiting them from the start if this were the case. (I still do not understand much about CSMods though I have come here to deepen my knowledge about them in relation to a mod I am currently working on)
ChimneySwift wrote:...I think people are overreacting about all the bad things CSM "could" do, rather than what people are likely to use it for (believe it or not, most people are generally good people).
Though experience has taught me a few lessons and I don't generally like what mankind is capable of, I still agree with this.

EDIT 2:
Reading somewhere else (probably on github) about the problems oredetect creates on survival servers (I am essentially a 100% creative mode guy) made me think more about this, but - though I think every [survival] server owner should have the right to disallow any undesired feature and enforce any user behavior - I anyway hope that CSMods might be able to run, even though not specifically sent by the server itself in MT 0.5+ because they definitely provide - for what I now see as a newbie - some really great potential for customization.

I believe that - as always - it is not a matter of version detection, but feature/behavior detection that is allowed/disallowed, available/unavailable.

Re: CSMods should not be on forum until Server-sent CSM is a

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 05:15
by paramat
Don't worry, nothing's been decided and i couldn't decide this alone. To clarify, my first post is just my personal opinion.

Re: CSMods should not be on forum until Server-sent CSM is a

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:14
by nrz
There is no other way to share them currently.
Also, since flavour implementation, i don't see any "rogue" mod here, only useful and interesting mods