Indicator: that show NOT Minetest or original client on work

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Festus1965
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Indicator: that show NOT Minetest or original client on work

by Festus1965 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 22:23

as there is a list of minetest forks,
and discussions about other apps (mainly because of there advantages, mean cheats)
here a collection about
Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client logged in

* player name
    * 2 diggit ending name --> use mod no_guest to block
    * 3 diggit anding name --> use mod no_guest to block
    * 4 diggit ending name --> use mod no_guest to block
* no move (same position) but keep running (most followed by time out) --> maybe informs fake game players
* often login and logout by "times out"
* sorted (gold-)chest, even sort is OFF
* open chests (view) that doesn't close anymore
* open and access locked chests / doors
* dig on area protected zones
* can fast, fly - maybe noclip
* have creative
* can store 65535 same items in his inventory, not only 99
* just with login they have diamond armor (that is cheat ! my server))
* on server action reports
    * reset position (moves too fast) for a long time --> is indicated with a return cheat !
    * tried to access ... position from too far (normal is value 40, some try with value 70/120 )


for help to find solutions to get rid of them.
* try to identify which client clone it is
* try to use or build mods to block them
    * no_guest to block 2, 3 or more following diggits
(my code)
* or warn them, give hint



For me there are two reasons to WANT to block them:
* I pay money for hardware, Internet and electric to run my Minetest Server, NOT want it used from thees apps making money for there app programmer
* I want to make sure all gamers on my server have same chances (not changed by advantages or cheats from apps)
Last edited by Festus1965 on Tue Apr 16, 2019 00:22, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 22:58

ii am not alone with that thinking ... collection:

TalkLounge wrote:...
Haha. I have already banned people because they wont change there game to minetest.
If every server admin does have this opinion then the minetest servers will be emptier, but we dont support idiots, which take minetest, put ads on it and sell it as a new game.
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Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 05:58

wow, that issues is not so new ... what I found ...

Detection of dirty clients #6114

10.07.2017 until 01.07.2017 - also with a post from "beyondlimits"
Think about doing it server side, where user has no control.

* Moving too fast - First let server and client synchronize their times. This can be current UNIX timestamp, server uptime or whatever increments at constant rate. Then everytime the player moves a little, client sends their new position with timestamp, so that server can determine whether the movement was legal and bring player back to the last valid position. Timestamps are here so that it should work well with no-clip enforcement even in case of lags.
* Peeking through walls - Does this constitue a cheat at all? Map chunks are sent as a whole and client receives full information of completely covered rooms. Minecraft does the same, and I currently have no idea how to handle it other way.
* Interacting through walls - Along with the interaction, a player's position, yaw and pitch should be sent so server can determine whether it was really possible to interact with the object.
* Passing through walls / flying - What cheating we're talking about? It was f'd up something that should be done at the beginning of development of this game.
* Invulnerability - F'd up. Without strikethrough. Player health status was implemented client-side (yikes! who does that?). I think it was fixed recently. If so, "finally" is a good word.
* Lighting - Sorry, you have no control over how it is displayed on user's screen. Even if a client had to prove it is legitimate, an user can still tweak his monitor settings. Isn't that an overkill. Devs already made this game painfully dark at the times, so I had to modify the lightmap in binary using the hex editor. It was fun to play (and the "cheat" even mitigated some graphical atrocities), until next version came out.
* Ores - back when I played Minecraft, on some servers there was an anti-cheat module that efficiently prevented players from searching ores by non-legitimate ways (like X-ray). The map chunk was sent to the client, but every ore occluded from all 6 sides was sent as stone. When an user dug one of the neighboring blocks, server sent a packet to change previously hidden stone into ore. Many servers however had a frustrating version of this mod, where random stones appeared as false ores.
* Looking inside chests of other players - Server along with chunk sends metadata that contains list of items in locked chests. It's in Lua scripts, not in C code. Plus of this solution is that an owner of the chest can see their items without waiting until lag passes. Minus however is that technically anyone can see what's inside.


and what does it tell me .. nothing happened yet.
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by sorcerykid » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:00

None of these are definitive indicators of cheating nor of a hacked client. And quite honestly, I think it's scary that anybody is actually using such "criteria" to block potentially legitimate players. Allow me to elaborate on each point:

    player name
    Wrong. There are ordinary users that have digits in their name, sometimes to indicate the year they were born, their age, or because an existing name was taken.

    no move (same position) but keep running (most followed by time out)
    Wrong. This can be caused by network latency. Mobile users are esp. vulnerable to packet loss and high pings due to cell tower distance or wi-fi reception.

    often login and logout by "times out"
    Wrong. Many factors can contribute to dropouts, including faulty router settings, defective ethernet cables, operating system bugs, surges in network traffic, etc.

    sorted (gold-)chest, even sort is OFF
    Wrong. There are users that obsessively sort their chests (even gold ores) not because they are cheating, but because they are anal retentive about organization.

    open chests (view) that doesn't close anymore
    Wrong. The chest lid stuck open is a bug is in Minetest game, and has no direct correlation with cheating. I can reproduce this same behavior with the official client.

    can fast, fly - maybe noclip
    Wrong. Even poor network performance can give the impression of noclip and fly and fast. Try switching your laptop to airplane mode, and you can do all of these!

    have creative
    Wrong. No user can "have creative" at will, unless your server is poorly configured or your mods are untested/ outdated. Privileges are determined by the server.

    can store 65535 same items in his inventory, not only 99
    Wrong. The server is responsible for maintaining user inventories. This sounds like a serious bug in on of your mods if a user has suspiciously large stack counts.

    just with login they have diamond armor (that is cheat ! my server))
    Wrong. No user can just "have diamond armor", unless you have serious bugs in your mods. The client has no authority to manipulate the server-side inventory.
Also it's an oxymoron to describe unwanted players as "guests", because all players are guests on a public server, except the owner and adminstrator. Any server that disallows guests would be empty 24/7.

Imagine if I were to open up a bar or a restaurant and post a prominent sign on the front window "NO GUESTS ALLOWED". I would be out of business in one month, after the first lease/mortgage payment comes due.
 

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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:14

player name
wrong, as that would indicate an normal spread mix of similar digit using name combinations, but jsut look the first 3 servers her, 80% is is a name with 3 digits, that is so much more then using birthyear etc, that is is a clear indicator in this case about one destination or app.
(just out of server-list at IFS: 12 of 21 have name123 convention that is not normal, and if I had more time and money I would sure find out the app making this given names, as I had 2 gamer they told me, that namewas not there choice)

sorted (gold-)chest, even sort is OFF
wrong, as I meant they are touching my locked gold-chests, which I never sort, as I sort my way, but when they had access (a window or on a public place) they have been sorted from them

can fast, fly - maybe noclip
wrong, we should analyze what a flying or noclip mean in the game.
fly mean be longer time a view nodes over an node that is not passable, mean to stand on - and it is not a falling, flying is an constant longer sequeny of not follow the gravity and change directions that NOT fix to falling or jumping actions
noclip is also indication, as surrounded of solid nodes over some time, sure I can dig in someone, but then he cant move, but theese guys just have seen on SONOS last week are long time IN several different positions without any air or air-like node
fast is more difficult, but as most used in combination ... sure can detect it for 80%

can store 65535 same items in his inventory, not only 99
oh thanks, then I think there is no any save server here, as I use only mods out of minetest.mods, don't change them and other things, as I am not able to do this - but your answer indicates that I could do it also as server is miss configured or mods. But to do this, a client need to use this failure/bug, and I have seen it !

just with login they have diamond armor (that is cheat ! my server))
thanks, that goes again to all this most used mods here ... nice to know, but I had them, just ready check IP and see them running from spawn in diamond armor, but sure 1st login.

ok have fun,
but I have no videos - I just know what I have seen sitting sometime 12 hours here not gaming, just watching what they do
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by micheal65536 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 22:24

sorcerykid wrote:<!-- snip -->

Came here to say this.

Festus1965 wrote:sorted (gold-)chest, even sort is OFF
wrong, as I meant they are touching my locked gold-chests, which I never sort, as I sort my way, but when they had access (a window or on a public place) they have been sorted from them

Players shouldn't be able to access locked chests, regardless of what client they're using. If players are able to do this, it's more likely that there's a bug/vulnerability in a mod that you are using (as sorcerykid suggested). In that case any player could potentially exploit it, not just those using unofficial clients.

Festus1965 wrote:can fast, fly - maybe noclip
wrong, we should analyze what a flying or noclip mean in the game.
fly mean be longer time a view nodes over an node that is not passable, mean to stand on - and it is not a falling, flying is an constant longer sequeny of not follow the gravity and change directions that NOT fix to falling or jumping actions
noclip is also indication, as surrounded of solid nodes over some time, sure I can dig in someone, but then he cant move, but theese guys just have seen on SONOS last week are long time IN several different positions without any air or air-like node
fast is more difficult, but as most used in combination ... sure can detect it for 80%

Network latency cannot allow "fast", "fly", and "noclip" for real but it can create effects that look the same. For example, if a player jumps and then lags at the top of the jump, it may look like they are hovering in the air for a few seconds. If they walk along while jumping, particularly over obstacles, it can look like they are flying. Similarly, if a player walks from point A to point B but lags while walking, to other players it will look like they were standing at point A for some time and then ran (fast) or even teleported to point B. Not completely sure about noclip but I think lag can sometimes cause players to end up inside blocks.

Festus1965 wrote:can store 65535 same items in his inventory, not only 99
oh thanks, then I think there is no any save server here, as I use only mods out of minetest.mods, don't change them and other things, as I am not able to do this - but your answer indicates that I could do it also as server is miss configured or mods. But to do this, a client need to use this failure/bug, and I have seen it !

If this is a bug in a mod, it can be exploited by all players not just those using unofficial clients.

Festus1965 wrote:just with login they have diamond armor (that is cheat ! my server))
thanks, that goes again to all this most used mods here ... nice to know, but I had them, just ready check IP and see them running from spawn in diamond armor, but sure 1st login.

Not sure what IP addresses have to do with this. You should be tracking the player's username, not their IP address. Players can connect from different IP addresses so you could have an existing (older) player connecting from a new IP address. If you track the IP address it will look like its the first time they've connected but if you track the username you'll see that their account is older. Not sure what user tracking/management mod you're using but it should be able to tell you the first login time or login count for a particular username rather than the IP address. IP addresses only become important if you've got a player creating multiple accounts to get around a ban.

In general, it appears that you may have some vulnerable mods on your server. Make sure that you are using up-to-date versions of all of the mods. Be especially careful if you have mods such as worldedit, or mods offering similar "edit anything" abilities to server admins, hackers can cause considerable damage if these mods are configured incorrectly or contain a vulnerability themselves (I believe worldedit had such a vulnerability a few years ago).

It would also be helpful to try to better understand concepts such as network latency/lag and what effects it has on the game, or what can happen if a player's client crashes or their connection drops for some reason. Many of the issues that you have described can be caused by this and aren't indicative of players using unofficial clients (or trying to cheat in any way).
 

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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 22:57

micheal65536 wrote:... it's more likely that there's a bug/vulnerability in a mod that you are using (as sorcerykid suggested).


Original, most newest Mods, as are found in minetest.net and Mod folders, and I don't change them in the codes base, so the winner is ...

This leads to an option mean, only use minetestserver with build in game and NOTHING else - and I am sure, still the same ... minetest itself is a bug/vulnerability


or:
micheal65536 wrote:Not sure what IP addresses have to do with this. You should be tracking the player's username, not their IP address. Players can connect from different IP addresses so you could have an existing (older) player connecting from a new IP address.

an Name can change like an IP-address, so rest of comment is useless so far ... and the damage to others when I block a range x.x.x.1-254 is quit more easy, as MOST of easy script kids don't know about IP, and
another Thread here proved that IP-address checking seams more important: [Mod] VPS Blocker [vps_blocker] but about names was thought of [Mod] No More Guests! [no_guests]
so for my understand your answer is out of lived reality - as you should have seen gamer names (*[a-zA-Z][0-9][0-9][0-9]) flooding other servers (I have 12 hours open and watch), and existing and used mods about this issue

so I keep in mind,
under-powered hardware (for server) is not our problem,
it might be more under-powered clients hardware and
much more the main problem is under-powered humans brain !
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by micheal65536 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 15:46

Festus1965 wrote:
micheal65536 wrote:... it's more likely that there's a bug/vulnerability in a mod that you are using (as sorcerykid suggested).


Original, most newest Mods, as are found in minetest.net and Mod folders, and I don't change them in the codes base, so the winner is ...

Do you keep the mods updated though, or did you install them once and then not think about it again? Because if you are using old versions of the mods, they could have vulnerabilities which have since been fixed. Regardless of where the mod is found.

Festus1965 wrote:
micheal65536 wrote:Not sure what IP addresses have to do with this. You should be tracking the player's username, not their IP address. Players can connect from different IP addresses so you could have an existing (older) player connecting from a new IP address.

an Name can change like an IP-address, so rest of comment is useless so far ... and the damage to others when I block a range x.x.x.1-254 is quit more easy, as MOST of easy script kids don't know about IP, and
another Thread here proved that IP-address checking seams more important: [Mod] VPS Blocker [vps_blocker] but about names was thought of [Mod] No More Guests! [no_guests]
so for my understand your answer is out of lived reality - as you should have seen gamer names (*[a-zA-Z][0-9][0-9][0-9]) flooding other servers (I have 12 hours open and watch), and existing and used mods about this issue

No I think you have misunderstood what I am describing. Suppose player "Alice" connects from IP address X, players for some time and then gets diamond armor (legitimately, not cheating). Then they come back tomorrow and connect from IP address Y, because their ISP changed their IP address (not the player deliberately changing IP address to cheat, it just happens). So you see a player join with diamond armor, you look at their IP address (Y) and see that this is the first time that they have connected and it looks like they are cheating. But if you look at the player's name ("Alice") you will see that they had already joined yesterday but from a different IP address.
 

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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 00:46

micheal65536 wrote:Do you keep the mods updated though, or did you install them once and then not think about it again? Because if you are using old versions of the mods, they could have vulnerabilities which have since been fixed. Regardless of where the mod is found.

Hihi, nice joke -
until now I didn't see any sign, list or check that might allow me to see every morning last changes that might depend on important or just other reasons of an updated [Mod]
and if - as my experience until now - I should test them 2 weeks on 2nd server to be sure no other unwanted changes that harm my world or server ...
maybe like have to be member (signed in) in all source gits, and keep get message if a new commit appears ?

micheal65536 wrote: Suppose player "Alice" connects from IP address X, players for some time and then gets diamond armor (legitimately, not cheating). Then they come back tomorrow and connect from IP address Y, because their ISP changed their IP address (not the player deliberately changing IP address to cheat, it just happens). So you see a player join with diamond armor, you look at their IP address (Y) and see that this is the first time that they have connected and it looks like they are cheating. But if you look at the player's name ("Alice") you will see that they had already joined yesterday but from a different IP address.


No, I have an [Mod] hec_vicount on, that gives everyone chat test telling here is new gamer, and report "so far x gamer since server on, x banned, and x jailed."
--> so first point easy to realize if someone is new in, as even he/she comes again under nuw IP but same name, nothing happen special
--> I am also able, and do it in this cases to check [Mod] euban, if under that name are more than 1 IP block registered.
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by micheal65536 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 16:15

Festus1965 wrote:
micheal65536 wrote:Do you keep the mods updated though, or did you install them once and then not think about it again? Because if you are using old versions of the mods, they could have vulnerabilities which have since been fixed. Regardless of where the mod is found.

Hihi, nice joke -
until now I didn't see any sign, list or check that might allow me to see every morning last changes that might depend on important or just other reasons of an updated [Mod]
and if - as my experience until now - I should test them 2 weeks on 2nd server to be sure no other unwanted changes that harm my world or server ...
maybe like have to be member (signed in) in all source gits, and keep get message if a new commit appears ?

There are a few ways. You can subscribe to the Minetest forum post of the mod, then you will see them in your forum subscriptions and also get an email every time the owner posts a new version on the forum (email is configurable in your forum settings). Also if you have an account on GitHub, GitLab, or wherever the mod source is hosted you can subscribe to the mod repository and get an email if there is a new version.
 

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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 16:42

micheal65536 wrote:There are a few ways. You can subscribe to the Minetest forum post of the mod, then you will see them in your forum subscriptions and also get an email every time the owner posts a new version on the forum (email is configurable in your forum settings). Also if you have an account on GitHub, GitLab, or wherever the mod source is hosted you can subscribe to the mod repository and get an email if there is a new version.


That I have seen and it works,
but some of the changes are useless, just bug repair - and then check if nothing got lost ...
I think about another way, like a check via read those mod I am interested, and compare automatic installed and where is a new one ... I did something like that long time ago with html/php to check my browsers, . hmmm
We Will see.


Ok, here some just happened.
Take a locked Mithril chest, but in a diagonal row of items, left-down to right up, and let another player toggle this chest for sort ... We just did this at my server, even chest is in protected area, and locked ... the inside got sorted.
Wow
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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by micheal65536 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:10

Festus1965 wrote:
micheal65536 wrote:There are a few ways. You can subscribe to the Minetest forum post of the mod, then you will see them in your forum subscriptions and also get an email every time the owner posts a new version on the forum (email is configurable in your forum settings). Also if you have an account on GitHub, GitLab, or wherever the mod source is hosted you can subscribe to the mod repository and get an email if there is a new version.


That I have seen and it works,
but some of the changes are useless, just bug repair - and then check if nothing got lost ...
I think about another way, like a check via read those mod I am interested, and compare automatic installed and where is a new one ... I did something like that long time ago with html/php to check my browsers, . hmmm
We Will see.

On GitHub you can choose to watch/subscribe to just the releases rather than to everything. Although this only helps if the mod developer uses releases, which some don't. GitLab does not seem to have this option yet.

Festus1965 wrote:Ok, here some just happened.
Take a locked Mithril chest, but in a diagonal row of items, left-down to right up, and let another player toggle this chest for sort ... We just did this at my server, even chest is in protected area, and locked ... the inside got sorted.
Wow

That is a vulnerability in the mod that provides Mithril chests (I think it is the technic mod). There is/was also a vulnerability where other players can change the names of labelled chests. Update the technic mod and if it still happens please report this as an issue on the technic mod.
 

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Re: Indicators, that show NOT Minetest client on work

by Festus1965 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:50

yes,
I just had newest - and was sure this answer will come ...
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Re: Indicator: that show NOT Minetest or original client on

by Festus1965 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 00:22

TalkLounge wrote:Please ban him. Thanks.


Thanks for this clear short evidence - and make other understand why my daughter got off.
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