[Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

[Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Fri Dec 20, 2019 01:55

I've tried
ambient_occlusion_gamma = 4
display_gamma = 10
Caves are 100% dark on version 5
On 4.17 I turned gama up and didn't use many torches. Question in title.


[Solved]
Developers considered any light adjustment to dark caves "cheating"
I disagree but that's how it goes.
Last edited by GayJesus on Sun Jan 05, 2020 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Fri Dec 20, 2019 02:32

Do you mean a lit or unlit cave?
Unlit caves were 100% dark in MT 0.4.x too.
Lighting has changed in MT 5.x.x and has possibly become a little darker at the edges in caves lit by light sources, and gamma possibly has less effect now.
The gamma setting does make lighting brighter, but cannot make a completely dark cave brighter, because that is absolute darkness. MT 0.4.x could not make absolute darkness brighter either.

You should also edit the lighting 'alpha', 'beta' and 'boost' settings to customise the spread of light.
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Fri Dec 20, 2019 22:06

https://endchan.net/.media/a7bd1a469325 ... deomp4.mp4

I made a video showing 4.16 vs 5.1.0 lighting.
Installs are vanilla, no mods added. old minetest.conf and directories removed before new install.
The video shows first 4.16 with gamma adjusted, 5.1.0 default, then 5.1.0 gamma adjusted with no improvement.
I tried everything I can think of but caves are still black.
A default:torch will illuminate about 10x10 nodes but it's total darkness beyond that.


Both installs are vanilla
Same device, same os =ubuntu 18 something.
I think both are map v7
both video driver = opengl


sorry about video link, all i could find quickly
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Sat Dec 21, 2019 23:17

> I tried everything I can think of but caves are still black.
> ... but it's total darkness beyond that.

Yes. I have already explained in my previous post.
The answer to your question depends on whether the cave is not illuminated or is dimly illuminated, which is why i asked you a question.

Areas of underground caves that are not illuminated by a nearby light source (areas that are more than 16 nodes from a light source) are completely dark, and always have been, and there is no way to make them brighter (yet).

Areas of underground caves that are dimly illuminated by a nearby light source (within 16 nodes of a light source) are now (in MT 5.x.x onwards) less affected by 'gamma', which is what you have noticed. But you now have more control over the spread of light by using the new 'lighting alpha', 'lighting beta' and 'lighting boost' settings. So you can make dimly-illuminated areas brighter.
 

warpnarget
Member
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 21:34
In-game: warpnarget
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Sun Dec 22, 2019 04:50

paramat wrote:>
Areas of underground caves that are not illuminated by a nearby light source (areas that are more than 16 nodes from a light source) are completely dark, and always have been, and there is no way to make them brighter (yet).
.


Watch my video and you'll see depth displayed. In 4- there's no nearby light source yet gamma makes dark caves somewhat visable. In 5 there's no "dim" for me no matter what. In 5 I have about 10 nodes from a torch then it's pitch black. In 5 ore is not visable on ceilings or 10 nodes up a wall. Unplayable.
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Tue Dec 24, 2019 08:06

My problem isn't just caves being too dark, it's anything that's supposed to be dim turns black.
If a player stands in a shadow he becomes black. Any idea how I can fix this? Still no problem before version 5.
Attachments
screenshot_20191224_015813.png
shadow
(239.4 KiB) Not downloaded yet
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 03:27

So the blackness is intentional.
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8577


I don't consider dim visability "cheating". What's the point of massive caverns if you can only see a feww nodes away?
I've found pbj pups 50 or more modes in mid-air. Minetest 5 feels like Pin the tail on the Donkey. It's not enjoyable.
I went back to 4. Please reconsider this mistake that obviously isn't popular with ligit players.
 

User avatar
duane
Member
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 19:11
Location: Oklahoma City
GitHub: duane-r

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by duane » Mon Dec 30, 2019 03:39

GayJesus wrote:I don't consider dim visability "cheating".


If you read the link you posted, you'll know that some people do.

What's the point of massive caverns if you can only see a feww nodes away?


I agree that nothing in the game should be completely dark. However, that's up to the person running the server to fix by adding light sources. Ideally, no client should be able to override the server admin's wishes.

Continuing to bump this thread probably won't get you what you want.
Believe in people and you don't need to believe anything else.
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 19:44

duane you can quote me on "it's not enjoyable" for sure.
Beside my dislike, how can the total blackout of object in slightly dim light not be considered a bug?
download/file.php?id=20828

It seems the devs would like to keep players happy. I'm willing to bet the dislike of the blackness far outwieghs the like by a few devs who probably don't even play the game as often as us.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Tue Dec 31, 2019 21:22

> In 4- there's no nearby light source yet gamma makes dark caves somewhat visable

Watched your video, you were right, sorry. I was certain that did not happen so this is a surprise.
However, gamma allowing completely dark caves to be visible should never have been possible and was a bug that allowed clientside cheating and unfairness on those players who played fair and were not using huge gamma settings.

> In 5 I have about 10 nodes from a torch then it's pitch black

Yes, because torches cast light for 12 nodes maximum distance. If you want more use a meselamp or mese post light which are brighter. Also adjust the alpha, beta and boost lighting settings.
Light cannot spread more than 16 nodes in MT, this is an inherent engine limitation. So because differing light sources need differing brightness, some light sources spread light for less than 16 nodes.

> If a player stands in a shadow he becomes black

That may be a bug, the player model's brightness should vary smoothly with light level. Perhaps open an issue on Github if you can?

> I don't consider dim visability "cheating". What's the point of massive caverns if you can only see a feww nodes away?

Seeing in complete darkness is obviously cheating. A primary intention of MT is that you craft torches to light stuff up to be able to see underground. Same as in MC.
Maybe we will add an option so that a server can choose, but the client cannot (and should never have been able to) choose this as this causes unfairness on servers. You could open a feature request issue if you want.
There are already plans for a 'fullbright' mode for seeing in complete darkness, but server-controlled.

> I've found pbj pups 50 or more modes in mid-air.

PBJ Pups are not in MTGame anymore, so that is not anything caused by us.

> Please reconsider this mistake that obviously isn't popular with ligit players.

It is not a mistake, it is a bugfix. Waht came before was a mistake. You have no idea how many players share your opinion. I would expect 'legit' players to prefer a suitable darkness and absence of clientside cheating.

> I agree that nothing in the game should be completely dark

Nonsense, a deep cave with no lighting should be absolutely black (by default), as it is in reality.

> I'm willing to bet the dislike of the blackness far outwieghs the like by a few devs who probably don't even play the game as often as us.

Core devs make the final decisions, this is luckily not a democracy.

Core devs play the game, that is unavoidable when you develop. However, we also need time for coding and other responsibilities. We also tend to be older, with therefore much less free time than players who tend to be younger. So, it is unavoidable that we, on average, play MT less, but there is nothing that we can do about that unless you pay us full time wages. It is a free game.
The time spent playing MT does not equate to knowledge, experience or good decision making.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Sat Jan 04, 2020 03:03

Due to my surprise above and my curiosity i recently spent some hours researching the history of lighting and the display_gamma feature, and compiled 4 past versions of MT to test.

///////////

The display_gamma feature was added in MT 0.4.12. The intention was to be a game engine brightness adjustment so that users did not have to alter their monitor settings.
The pull request discussion shows that it did not intend to make completely dark areas (light level 0, such as a deep underground cave with no light sources) clearly visible.

The earliest version of MT i am able to compile is 0.4.13, so i tested that.
The pull request of the display_gamma feature made it clear that, with the default value of display_gamma, lighting was unchanged from before. So by testing MT 0.4.13 with the default value i was able to experience the lighting of MT versions before the display_gamma feature was added. The result was ...

MT lighting of 0.4.11 and before was not completely black in a completely dark area, it was just possible to distinguish a white node placed in a cave with grey stone walls. However, it was still very dark and far too dark to navigate in caves or play without light sources.

I tested MT 0.4.13 and 0.4.15 with display_gamma at the default value, then at the maximum value of 3.0 (note that the value has always been limited to 3.0 in code, so setting the value any higher then 3.0 has no effect):

With the default value, the visual brightness of a completely dark area was identical to before the display_gamma feature was added.
With maximum value 3.0, the visual brightness of a completely dark area was unchanged from that of the default value.

So, for MT versions 0.4.12 to 0.4.15, display_gamma did not make it possible to see clearly in completely dark areas.

///////////

Lighting brightness was reworked in MT version 0.4.16. Again, the pull request discussion shows that it did not intend to make it possible for completely dark areas to be made clearly visible.
However, testing MT 0.4.16 i discovered that the maximum value of display_gamma now made a completely dark area clearly visible. This was an error missed during review.

Unfortunately and surprisingly, no-one reported this error, if they had we would have fixed it.
I suspect that many users noticed this but did not report it either because they thought it was deliberate or because they liked it and did not want it to change.
It was inevitable that this would be noticed and fixed eventually (and it was less than a year later) and unfortunately many players got used to this ability.

It was a bad situation for competitive or challenging servers, as display_gamma is a clientside setting, so gave some players unfair advantages, and applied pressure on all players to use the maximum value to not be left at a disadvantage, even if they did not want to use it.
This also became a cheat for any server with a darkness-related challenge.
Overall a distasteful situation of unfairness, cheating and pressure on the unwilling.

///////////

In MT 5.0.0/5.0.1 lighting brightness was reworked again with a far better implementation which we are using now.
The visual brightness of light level 0 was set to 0. So completely dark areas are now completely black, which in terms of gameplay is no different to all MT versions before 0.4.16 when it was also far too dark to see in any useful way.
Another benefit is that it removes all visual information from the screen in completely dark areas, so that a player cannot use contrast-boosting software.

///////////

Summarising ...
Being able to see in completely dark areas was only possible, by accident, in MT 0.4.16.
This ability was inconsistent with the entire previous history of MT.
This ability should only exist if controlled by the server.

GayJesus, this is very different from how you portray it.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 3827
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by Wuzzy » Sat Jan 04, 2020 20:36

Hey, thanks for this in-depth dive into Minetest history! :-)
My creations. I gladly accept bitcoins: 17fsUywHxeMHKG41UFfu34F1rAxZcrVoqH
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Sun Jan 05, 2020 22:50

So how does the server owner or single player adjust the gamma back to the good ol 4.16 days?
I agree "Server should decide", and I decide I want it that way in single player at least. If I ever do run a public server I'll do the same.
Please look at the second image I uploaded "black"
This should be reported as a bug. I don't github so someone else please report if you have this problem.
 

User avatar
duane
Member
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 19:11
Location: Oklahoma City
GitHub: duane-r

Re: Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by duane » Mon Jan 06, 2020 04:57

GayJesus wrote:So how does the server owner or single player adjust the gamma back to the good ol 4.16 days?
I agree "Server should decide", and I decide I want it that way in single player at least. If I ever do run a public server I'll do the same.
Please look at the second image I uploaded "black"
This should be reported as a bug. I don't github so someone else please report if you have this problem.


You've already been told how to fix the issue. You've already been told that it's not a bug. If it really concerns you, then add a new lighting option to the server code and make a pull request (or just publish a patch if you have some issue with using github). That's what open source projects are about... Or you could just gripe about it endlessly and hope someone else does it for you.
Believe in people and you don't need to believe anything else.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: [Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Tue Jan 07, 2020 02:53

> If a player stands in a shadow he becomes black. Any idea how I can fix this? Still no problem before version 5.

duane that possibly is a bug, they are not referring to seeing in complete darkness.
If this bug is occurring i am sure someone would have reported it by now, but there is no such bug reported. Someone needs to reproduce it, and if reproduced, open an issue.

> So how does the server owner or single player adjust the gamma back to the good ol 4.16 days?

They cannot because that is how the engine is coded now (since 5.0.0), and for good reason as explained, what happened in 0.4.16 was not good.

> I agree "Server should decide"

What would be needed is a new feature for server-controlled 'seeing in complete darkness'. There is already a 'fullbright' feature in development that works on privs, although that makes everything fully-bright so is not the same:
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6509
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6844
But it is probably the only such feature that will be added, see my previous post for why.
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: [Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:38

duane, I play but I'm not a programmer.

paramat
I installed a new distro lumbutu with 5.0.1 and the "bug" persists.
Easy to reproduce if anyone cares to try. I played on Xanadu and my character and mods turn black within a weak shadow where ground is still visible. And same problem single on player mtg vanilla.

I have another question. Is there a limit to a mods abilty to expand the range of light, a torch that lights 100 nodes for example? If not I might attempt to edit shooter mod/flaregun and be able to light large caves. That would make me happy.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: [Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by paramat » Sat Jan 11, 2020 00:54

Ok, but this black player/mob bug needs to be reproduced in latest MT 5.2.0 development version, because this may be a bug that has already been fixed.

The range of light in MT is limited to 16 nodes and cannot be extended without very disruptive changes in the engine, that therefore cannot happen.
However, some mods provide nodes that change the air nodes around them into 'light-emitting airlike nodes', this is a way to extend light spread to larger than 16 nodes.
 

GayJesus
Member
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 22:29

Re: [Solved] Is it possible to make caves brighter?

by GayJesus » Wed Jan 29, 2020 02:49

How will I know when ubuntu ppa version is updated to 5.0.2? I'm using 4.17.1 but would like to test the upgrade. I believe my problem might be hardwaare relate because I noticed that even lava or other lights are dimmer in 5.0.1
 


Return to Problems



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 9 guests