[Mod] Goblins [goblins]

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by freshreplicant » Post

I'm still a big fan of this mod, but I am wondering if maybe there would be a way to toggle the ability of goblins to mine or destroy the environment. The nuisance aspect can be really fun, but I've noticed that the random pattern than the goblins dig in can easily render your caves/mines totally unusable or unrecognisable. They can cause major havoc by mining underwater, causing your whole cave system to get flooded in a way that isn't easy to patch up. It also exasperates things slightly when you realise they're in pretty much every cave system, rather than just in one or two places. Fighting them to protect your mines would be a fun mechanic, but they seem to be too numerous to really use that as an in-game way to manage them. For now, as much as I like them, I have removed them from some of my worlds, especially where I play with other people.

Some people might like that play style, where the goblins totally dominate gameplay over other mods/mobs, but it might be useful to add the ability to toggle the ability to build (place mossy cobble/moss/mushrooms) and to destroy (mining blocks). I might for instance leave the placing option on, whereas somebody else might have both or just the mining option on.

I noticed that the configuration options seem to allow for setting areas as protected, but I've never really messed with protection (I'm guessing it relates to a mod?). Having built in environmental toggles as an additional gameplay option would be very convenient, so that it can apply to your whole world automatically without messing with protecting zones.

An additional idea might be to have goblins only spawn around 'goblin dens' or something similar, where they only range a certain amount of blocks outside that territory. That way even if you toggle on full destruction, it is contained within an certain manageable zone. It might even add a fun gameplay aspect, where you find their destruction and know you're close to a den. Another possibility for reducing the total chaos of the mining goblins would be if they're somehow programmed only to dig out a specific 'shape' or structure, like say, Mineshafts of a certain length, either branching or a certain distance apart from each other (or maybe just restricted to a specific range of 'y' coordinates). That way you can still walk through caves without falling into goblin pits every three steps!

Anyhow, hope you're still working on this and have some other cool surprises coming!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

You can, in fact, set them to spawn less frequently or only near certain blocks. Please take a look at the goblins_spawning.lua. The main idea behind the goblins is for them to be pervasive so there is not much restricting them but they will avoid light (you might need to use something other than torches) They should not destroy any metal structures either. I roughly modeled their behavior on the movie "Gremlins" and their nature is highly chaotic and generally destructive.

That said, protection mods such as TenPlus1's "Protector Redo" https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/protector are supported so please take a look at that and give it a try. "Protector Redux" https://content.minetest.net/packages/s ... protector/ by socerykid should work as well.

I'm sorry I have not been more active. We just now(!) got a working replacement refrigerator since having to evacuate our home in August(!) and also did a redecoration of our kids room, so there has been plenty of real life chaos to keep me busy. I have been hiding out mindlessly mining asteroids in Avorion just to calm my mind. Thank you for playing and giving detailed feedback! I will try to make some more behavior tuning options more accessible.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by freshreplicant » Post

FreeLikeGNU wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 02:14
You can, in fact, set them to spawn less frequently or only near certain blocks. Please take a look at the goblins_spawning.lua. The main idea behind the goblins is for them to be pervasive so there is not much restricting them but they will avoid light (you might need to use something other than torches) They should not destroy any metal structures either. I roughly modeled their behavior on the movie "Gremlins" and their nature is highly chaotic and generally destructive.


Ah ok, interesting! I haven't had the chance to dig into the code too much yet. I'll see how much I understand. I suppose maybe I could create a special block in my own mod and only have Goblins spawn near it, thereby restricting them further? Or maybe there's ways for me to tweak the code and either toggle off digging or what they can dig (noticed something about 'diggable nodes' in behaviors.lua)?

I understand that my queries are kind of against the wide ranging chaotic spirit of your mod, so I respect your vision, just want to see how I can adapt them for my worlds. In a way it's admirable how much of a pain in the butt you've programmed them to be.
FreeLikeGNU wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 02:14
That said, protection mods such as TenPlus1's "Protector Redo" https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/protector are supported so please take a look at that and give it a try. "Protector Redux" https://content.minetest.net/packages/s ... protector/ by socerykid should work as well.


I'll see if they're easy to implement without restricting the other people I play on LAN with. I'm just worried that protecting little chunks here and there will do little to stall the Goblin hoarde!
FreeLikeGNU wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 02:14
I'm sorry I have not been more active. We just now(!) got a working replacement refrigerator since having to evacuate our home in August(!) and also did a redecoration of our kids room, so there has been plenty of real life chaos to keep me busy. I have been hiding out mindlessly mining asteroids in Avorion just to calm my mind. Thank you for playing and giving detailed feedback! I will try to make some more behavior tuning options more accessible.
Oh jeez, no need to apologise to anyone, you went through a harrowing experience and got your family through it safe and sound. That and recovering from the ordeal is 100% the top priority.

I actually own Avorion too! Haven't played in a while though, must check it out again soon.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

I could create a special block in my own mod and only have Goblins spawn near it, thereby restricting them further
Certainly!

Probably the most destructive of the goblins is the Cavedigger. It will replace most stone, dirt and sand blocks with air. You can set this one spawn less often to control the tunneling out of caves. Most of the other goblins will spawn near mossycobble which is placed by the Cobblemoss goblin. Mossycobble appears naturally in mapgens with dungeons enabled for the most part so you could still see a number of goblins hanging out in these structures without the Cobblemoss goblin spawning at all.
Or maybe there's ways for me to tweak the code and either toggle off digging or what they can dig (noticed something about 'diggable nodes' in behaviors.lua)?


The "replace_what" part of

Code: Select all

goblins.search_replace
function in the goblins.lua for the digger is probably your target. About line 65:

Code: Select all

            {"group:soil",
              "group:sand",
              "default:gravel",
              "default:stone",
              "default:desert_stone",
              "group:torch"}, --replace_what

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by freshreplicant » Post

FreeLikeGNU wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 15:23
I could create a special block in my own mod and only have Goblins spawn near it, thereby restricting them further
Certainly!

Probably the most destructive of the goblins is the Cavedigger. It will replace most stone, dirt and sand blocks with air. You can set this one spawn less often to control the tunneling out of caves. Most of the other goblins will spawn near mossycobble which is placed by the Cobblemoss goblin. Mossycobble appears naturally in mapgens with dungeons enabled for the most part so you could still see a number of goblins hanging out in these structures without the Cobblemoss goblin spawning at all.
Or maybe there's ways for me to tweak the code and either toggle off digging or what they can dig (noticed something about 'diggable nodes' in behaviors.lua)?


The "replace_what" part of

Code: Select all

goblins.search_replace
function in the goblins.lua for the digger is probably your target. About line 65:

Code: Select all

 {"group:soil",
"group:sand",
"default:gravel",
"default:stone",
"default:desert_stone",
"group:torch"}, --replace_what
I took this approach to tweak my own weird version of the Goblins. First, I disabled the Cobblemoss goblin, which as you suggested, makes the goblins spawn naturally in caves but means they spread out less aggressively.

As far as tunnelling, I did not disable any of the goblins that create tunnels, but I limited them all to digging soil/gravel/sand, which I found to be much less destructive and can even be helpful in some ways (that they can be helpful is probably against your intentions however). Now if only I could switch their pickaxes for shovels! Despite this change my world still feels alive, plus it gives goblins a unique niche and gives dungeons a purpose (especially those without chests). For me it's a happy medium...though it does feel a bit like 'cheating' still.

Stopping the digging of certain nodes is probably the biggest transgression I have made to your original vision, so I understand that this option is probably not going to be made more accessible outside of editing the goblins.lua file. I do wonder however if having a 'switch' for the Cobblemoss goblin would be an option. It says 'Yes, I want Goblins to mess up my world and be lovable nuisances...but not EVERYWHERE.' It also has the effect of saying 'Goblins live HERE', same as flora and fauna tend to occupy specific niches.

One issue I had with tunnel digging was that the tunnels tend to advance one block high at various Y levels, so they just don't make sense for the taller player models to interact with in a meaningful way, so goblin tunnels are untraversable and not just unsightly.

An idea I had for retaining the mayhem and destruction of goblins but not making them interfere all to much with the basic layout of tunnels/mines/buildings was that maybe a mode could be added in which they don't necessarily dig tunnels, but cause localised cave-ins/blockages of existing structures. This could be accomplished without making nodes into 'falling nodes' by having goblins replace a certain amount of air in tunnels/caves with something like goblins:rubble or even goblins:midden_heap. Potentially goblins could also dig little pockets out of existing caves/tunnels, restricted to a specific range and size - similar to the size of the excavations you might make mining to get exposed ores in a tunnel wall. This goes along with my earlier ideas about them digging out set structures. It would probably also make sense to space these cave-ins/excavations out by performing some check to see how far away the nearest one is.

Having destructive features of this category means a player will still interact and struggle with goblins, racing to patch stuff up while they wreck it. Currently this flat out isn't possible, especially on a server. To play with goblins, you kind of have to accept that if something is underground, the goblins will win, if they haven't already. The surface might be yours (for now), but everything within a certain Y axis is a goblin simulator, with a few nodes from other mods thrown in as decoration. If 'Goblins' was a stand-alone game, rather than a mod, this approach would make more sense.

Though this is from the 'enemy', I think this Mojang video is pretty interesting in how they address the balance issues to consider when coming up with a new mob. It is harder to give mobs (even hostile mobs) a purpose in Minetest, since it's a patchwork of mods rather than a real complete 'game', but some principles still make sense. Somewhat related, this video about Ultima Online is interesting from a player/mob balance viewpoint.

I don't mean to come across too critical, I just want to give some gameplay feedback. Really love this mod, it is undoubtedly in a class of its own when it comes to mob-based mods, I just feel it could do with a tiny touch of the old writer's adage of 'don't be afraid to kill your darlings'.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

freshreplicant wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:18

I took this approach to tweak my own weird version of the Goblins. First, I disabled the Cobblemoss goblin, which as you suggested, makes the goblins spawn naturally in caves but means they spread out less aggressively.

As far as tunnelling, I did not disable any of the goblins that create tunnels, but I limited them all to digging soil/gravel/sand, which I found to be much less destructive and can even be helpful in some ways (that they can be helpful is probably against your intentions however). Now if only I could switch their pickaxes for shovels! Despite this change my world still feels alive, plus it gives goblins a unique niche and gives dungeons a purpose (especially those without chests). For me it's a happy medium...though it does feel a bit like 'cheating' still.

Stopping the digging of certain nodes is probably the biggest transgression I have made to your original vision, so I understand that this option is probably not going to be made more accessible outside of editing the goblins.lua file. I do wonder however if having a 'switch' for the Cobblemoss goblin would be an option. It says 'Yes, I want Goblins to mess up my world and be lovable nuisances...but not EVERYWHERE.' It also has the effect of saying 'Goblins live HERE', same as flora and fauna tend to occupy specific niches.

One issue I had with tunnel digging was that the tunnels tend to advance one block high at various Y levels, so they just don't make sense for the taller player models to interact with in a meaningful way, so goblin tunnels are untraversable and not just unsightly.

An idea I had for retaining the mayhem and destruction of goblins but not making them interfere all to much with the basic layout of tunnels/mines/buildings was that maybe a mode could be added in which they don't necessarily dig tunnels, but cause localised cave-ins/blockages of existing structures. This could be accomplished without making nodes into 'falling nodes' by having goblins replace a certain amount of air in tunnels/caves with something like goblins:rubble or even goblins:midden_heap. Potentially goblins could also dig little pockets out of existing caves/tunnels, restricted to a specific range and size - similar to the size of the excavations you might make mining to get exposed ores in a tunnel wall. This goes along with my earlier ideas about them digging out set structures. It would probably also make sense to space these cave-ins/excavations out by performing some check to see how far away the nearest one is.

Having destructive features of this category means a player will still interact and struggle with goblins, racing to patch stuff up while they wreck it. Currently this flat out isn't possible, especially on a server. To play with goblins, you kind of have to accept that if something is underground, the goblins will win, if they haven't already. The surface might be yours (for now), but everything within a certain Y axis is a goblin simulator, with a few nodes from other mods thrown in as decoration. If 'Goblins' was a stand-alone game, rather than a mod, this approach would make more sense.

Though this is from the 'enemy', I think this Mojang video is pretty interesting in how they address the balance issues to consider when coming up with a new mob. It is harder to give mobs (even hostile mobs) a purpose in Minetest, since it's a patchwork of mods rather than a real complete 'game', but some principles still make sense. Somewhat related, this video about Ultima Online is interesting from a player/mob balance viewpoint.

I don't mean to come across too critical, I just want to give some gameplay feedback. Really love this mod, it is undoubtedly in a class of its own when it comes to mob-based mods, I just feel it could do with a tiny touch of the old writer's adage of 'don't be afraid to kill your darlings'.
Thank you for your comments! The goblins are made to be tweakable to your own playstyle as much as possible. There is no shame in doing whatever you like with them. I like the idea of middens and keeps, etc. I have been learning more sophisticated ways of placing node structures with the Witches mod (check out the "Cottages" branch) though my dev time is greatly reduced (been more into playing than modding lately), you can see that the Witches erect randomized cottages and have some behavioral actions related to their own cottage. I thank you for and welcome your thoughtful insights!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

Code: Select all

2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]: ServerError: AsyncErr: environment_Step: Runti
me error from mod 'goblins' in callback environment_Step(): .../MeseCraft/games/
mesecraft/mods/ENTITIES/goblins/hud.lua:8: attempt to index local 'player' (a ni
l value)
2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]: stack traceback:
2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]:       .../MeseCraft/games/mesecraft/mods/ENTIT
IES/goblins/hud.lua:8: in function 'func'
2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]:       /home/minetest/MeseCraft/builtin/common/
after.lua:20: in function </home/minetest/MeseCraft/builtin/common/after.lua:5>
2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]:       /home/minetest/MeseCraft/builtin/game/re
gister.lua:422: in function </home/minetest/MeseCraft/builtin/game/register.lua:
406>
2021-08-27 12:42:46: ERROR[Main]: stack traceback:
got this fatal error when a player left the game.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by lag01 » Post

MisterE wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:28
...

got this fatal error when a player left the game.
Maybe it is race condition thing, i had to fix few of those in "mobs" mod on my server.

I am not sure, but maybe num_emerge_threads is related. You have default setting for it in config?

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

no, its where the player object is wanted but does not exist because they have left. I fixed it on my local copy by checking for player, but this is so the mod author can fix it and I can update it officially

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

MisterE wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 00:13
no, its where the player object is wanted but does not exist because they have left. I fixed it on my local copy by checking for player, but this is so the mod author can fix it and I can update it officially
Please test the latest commit, hope this helps and thank you for the bug report!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

Im sorry FreeLikeGnu, but I have removed goblins because I continually got the error:

Bus error (core dumped)

or something like that.
that was all, no traceback. It started when I installed goblins and seems to have stopped doing it now that goblins are removed. If you are interested in working with me to debug it, I could see that, but we would have to work together to get it debugged. It will likely take quite a while. I dont mid the crashes if the bugs are being worked out, but If that kind of bug wont be being fixed, then goblins arent justified on my server. so let me know if you want to do that.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

MisterE wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 17:37
Im sorry FreeLikeGnu, but I have removed goblins because I continually got the error:
Bus error (core dumped)
Can you tell me what version of minetest, mobs_redo and goblins you are using?
What other mods (especially mobs related) you are using?

I've not run into the "Bus error" crash in my testing, can you tell me when, during play, that occurs?

thank you!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation and it was hard to reply.

Minetest: 5.4.1
mobs_redo: version = "20201206",
goblins: "20210421"

other mobs mods: mobs_creatures( a bunch of other mobs_redo mobs conglomerated, see:https://notabug.org/CenteriaSurvival/me ... _creatures) mobkit, mob_core, water_life, animalia, draconis Mobkit and after are all mobkit mobs, shouldnt affect it

Do you suggest updating mobs_redo?

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

Please consider using the latest version of mobs_redo as there have been many fixes since last year. I forgot to update the version numbers of the last commit, I will fix that with further changes in the future.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

ok! Will reinstall and test with latest mobs_redo! let you know how it goes thanks very much!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

Any luck, MisterE?

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

Sorry didnt get around to updating it yet. Just updated mobs redo, and goblins, online and testing now.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

ok after the update, unfortunately, the error has started again. This is *all* i get:

Code: Select all

Bus error (core dumped) 
and at this point its pretty clear that it is goblins which are causing the issue: the error did not occur when goblins were disabled, and started again as soon as I reenabled them (with updated mobs_redo) :(

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

Sorry about the trouble you are having. I'll look into this further. Thank you for testing and reporting results!

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by MisterE » Post

One potential fix, though it would require much work, so Im not really asking you to do it, is to convert the goblins over to mobkit. a glance at the code shows that you have many many custom functions, which is what mobkit excells at implementing. You would also get better physics and perhaps some more complex behaviors that are easier to implement if you care to do that. But it would require a lot of work. I wouldnt do it if it were me. But I dont really see any other way I can have goblins on the server at this point since they keep crashing hard without a debug.

If you are interested, try pinging ElCeejo about making mobkit mobs, he may be able to give you some pointers and maybe a library or two

tho then again, its likely enough that the crash is caused by one of the custom functions... so implementing it in mobkit wouldnt help after all

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by kristovish » Post

is this project abandoned?

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

kristovish wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 04:09
is this project abandoned?
It is not abandoned. I will maintain against bugs and such. Why do you ask?

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by kristovish » Post

FreeLikeGNU wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 04:49
kristovish wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 04:09
is this project abandoned?
It is not abandoned. I will maintain against bugs and such. Why do you ask?

because I added goblins on my public server from day one and more than once it crashed because there were too many in the mines. I corrected the issue a bit by modifying the spawning of the goblings. but I was wondering if there was any way to limit them or make them disappear after a while. my server is new and I plan to use it forever together with witches mod

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by TenPlus1 » Post

@kristovish - You could always enable the 'remove_far_mobs' option so that untamed mobs outside the loaded map area despawn.

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Re: [Mod] Goblins [goblins] [WIP]

by FreeLikeGNU » Post

kristovish wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 04:51
because I added goblins on my public server from day one and more than once it crashed because there were too many in the mines.
@kristovish, if you would be so kind as to open an issue on the tracker and paste the log where the crash occurs, I would be happy to investigate further. There is some advantage to keeping the goblins alive and I would like them to behave better on servers (I generally only test as a single player).

@TenPlus1, thanks for the tip!

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