0.4.8 Timeline?

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0.4.8 Timeline?

by BadWolf » Tue Aug 13, 2013 04:44

I don't know if this is the right place to post, being the "unofficial" place for developers, I didn't see any "official" development forum.

I was looking over the wiki dev pages, I found the todo list. But I was wondering if there was a goal list for 0.4.8 to be released? or if that to do list encompassed more versions? Also is there a time goal for the different updates? I wasn't able to find any page or info like this
 

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by Jordach » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:53

Releases are made when the devs feel that the GitHub version doesn't work properly with the 0.x.x stable, "x" being the replacement for a version number.
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by BadWolf » Tue Aug 13, 2013 14:17

Calinou wrote:http://dev.minetest.net/Changelog for the changelog, by the way.


Thanks, I've looked at that, though it doesn't much explain what's been added in the git, and what still needs to be finished or fixed before the next version.


@Jordach: That's a very odd way of working. Not saying it's bad but it's kinda confusing, especially for beginners like me. I've heard a few people saying that 0.4.8 should be released 'soon' but I've never seen a qualifier for 'how' soon is 'soon'
 

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by cHyper » Tue Aug 13, 2013 16:51

BadWolf wrote: 'how' soon is 'soon'


when its done... ;)
 

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by wcwyes » Sat Aug 17, 2013 08:23

cHyper wrote:
BadWolf wrote: 'how' soon is 'soon'


when its done... ;)


That's no way to treat a project. Anyone who treats a project like that is bound to have many errors in their project. Projects need goals or you lose heart and stop paying attention to them, then when you come back you forget some of the problems, which results in bad programming.
 

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by solars » Sat Aug 17, 2013 09:27

wcwyes wrote:That's no way to treat a project. Anyone who treats a project like that is bound to have many errors in their project. Projects need goals or you lose heart and stop paying attention to them, then when you come back you forget some of the problems, which results in bad programming.


I don't think so... Termines are the base of the most errors in software.
"It's not good" - "But it's release day" <- worst situation!

One of the biggest and best distributions are done when it's done: Debian. And Debian is one of the best and the most comprehensive distribution of all.

No termin is a way for good programming. In open source, the most projects are better with no termin. With termin, you must forget some of the problems to hold the termin, without, you can get rid of the problems and test the release without deadline pressure.

I think, the best way in every softwareproject is: It's done when it's done!
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by Mossmanikin » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:18

solars wrote:I don't think so... Termines are the base of the most errors in software.
"It's not good" - "But it's release day" <- worst situation!


^That!

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by wcwyes » Sun Aug 18, 2013 01:56

solars wrote:
wcwyes wrote:That's no way to treat a project. Anyone who treats a project like that is bound to have many errors in their project. Projects need goals or you lose heart and stop paying attention to them, then when you come back you forget some of the problems, which results in bad programming.


I don't think so... Termines are the base of the most errors in software.
"It's not good" - "But it's release day" <- worst situation!

One of the biggest and best distributions are done when it's done: Debian. And Debian is one of the best and the most comprehensive distribution of all.

No termin is a way for good programming. In open source, the most projects are better with no termin. With termin, you must forget some of the problems to hold the termin, without, you can get rid of the problems and test the release without deadline pressure.

I think, the best way in every softwareproject is: It's done when it's done!


I'd like to see you run a company like that. I could see it now, "That's how most shrink happens...", or "That's how most work related accidents happen..."..."...if you didn't have a deadline you wouldn't get hurt, stolen from, or break things"
Granted they shouldn't be concrete if something has gone wrong, or unexpected. I know of plenty of corperations who's pushed back deadlines because of unforeseen obstacles, also I've seen unrealistic demands not met because there was a deadline. Deadlines have many purposes, releasing a faulty product is not one of them. If you release a faulty product there's something wrong with your brain. But on the other hand if you refuse to release a product because of a feature that's not necessary and you can't figure out how to implement it properly, then there's something wrong with your brain too.
 

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by leo_rockway » Sun Aug 18, 2013 07:12

wcwyes wrote:I'd like to see you run a company like that.


The great news is that Minetest is not a company. This is the way free software works, it releases when it's ready and there's no point in releasing something that's not ready. If you're in a hurry to check the code out, it's publicly available so you don't even have to wait: go to github and clone it.
If you want to see a feature implemented and you can code, then by all means fork it and do a pull request. If you can't code then you can offer bounties (or artwork or learn how to code). If you're not ready for any of those things then how about you let those working on the code work on it at the pace they want to?
Minetest is ran by volunteers who work on the code on their own free time for their own reasons (I guess mostly because they think it's fun). Are you going to ask them to put deadlines on something they are working on as volunteers for fun? Seriously? And then accuse them of having a faulty brain? You sure have some nerve.
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by Casimir » Sun Aug 18, 2013 09:12

Jordach wrote:Releases are made when the devs feel that the GitHub version doesn't work properly with the 0.x.x stable, "x" being the replacement for a version number.

IMO thats now the case. Mods that use spawn_falling_node don't work with the latest git (name has been replaced with node), also many mods use some of the new features that are not in 0.4.7.
 

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by wcwyes » Sun Aug 18, 2013 20:47

leo_rockway wrote:
wcwyes wrote:I'd like to see you run a company like that.


The great news is that Minetest is not a company. This is the way free software works, it releases when it's ready and there's no point in releasing something that's not ready. If you're in a hurry to check the code out, it's publicly available so you don't even have to wait: go to github and clone it.
If you want to see a feature implemented and you can code, then by all means fork it and do a pull request. If you can't code then you can offer bounties (or artwork or learn how to code). If you're not ready for any of those things then how about you let those working on the code work on it at the pace they want to?
Minetest is ran by volunteers who work on the code on their own free time for their own reasons (I guess mostly because they think it's fun). Are you going to ask them to put deadlines on something they are working on as volunteers for fun? Seriously? And then accuse them of having a faulty brain? You sure have some nerve.


I love the way you say
leo_rockway wrote:Are you going to ask them to put deadlines on something they are working on as volunteers for fun?
...
leo_rockway wrote:You sure have some nerve.
The key is I'm not asking anything. It only right to constantly challenge yourself. It's something every sane person needs. Everything you do should be important to you like a job. Of course your job should be something you enjoy. But none the less you should be passionate about it, and not treat it like something that doesn't really matter. And obviously as Casimir pointed out your theory is definitely not working in not having a deadline.
 

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by leo_rockway » Sun Aug 18, 2013 23:04

wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:
wcwyes wrote:I'd like to see you run a company like that.


The great news is that Minetest is not a company. This is the way free software works, it releases when it's ready and there's no point in releasing something that's not ready. If you're in a hurry to check the code out, it's publicly available so you don't even have to wait: go to github and clone it.
If you want to see a feature implemented and you can code, then by all means fork it and do a pull request. If you can't code then you can offer bounties (or artwork or learn how to code). If you're not ready for any of those things then how about you let those working on the code work on it at the pace they want to?
Minetest is ran by volunteers who work on the code on their own free time for their own reasons (I guess mostly because they think it's fun). Are you going to ask them to put deadlines on something they are working on as volunteers for fun? Seriously? And then accuse them of having a faulty brain? You sure have some nerve.


I love the way you say


Thank you =]

wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:You sure have some nerve.
The key is I'm not asking anything. It only right to constantly challenge yourself. It's something every sane person needs. Everything you do should be important to you like a job. Of course your job should be something you enjoy. But none the less you should be passionate about it, and not treat it like something that doesn't really matter. And obviously as Casimir pointed out your theory is definitely not working in not having a deadline.


I don't understand how having a deadline makes anything more "passionate". You don't know what drives each of the developers. Maybe they want to get better at coding, maybe they want to have fun, maybe they want to include a feature so they can make their friends drop MC and start using MT... I think that if you take something too seriously with a deadline, you start feeling like it's a chore and the fun disappears (deadlines and whiny people...).

What Casimir fails to see is that it's the modders that are making use of newer features and that's not the responsibility of the engine developers, nor the mods that stop working with people using GIT (I mean, if you're going to build MT in a rolling release schedule then you should know that's bound to happen).
Developers do have their own goals of things they want to implement, they just don't have deadlines for them. When they get coded, they get coded.


EDIT: just wanted to add that no matter what you say or what I say, ultimately the deadlines or no deadlines it's up to the actual devs.
Last edited by leo_rockway on Sun Aug 18, 2013 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
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by wcwyes » Mon Aug 19, 2013 01:39

leo_rockway wrote:
wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:
The great news is that Minetest is not a company. This is the way free software works, it releases when it's ready and there's no point in releasing something that's not ready. If you're in a hurry to check the code out, it's publicly available so you don't even have to wait: go to github and clone it.
If you want to see a feature implemented and you can code, then by all means fork it and do a pull request. If you can't code then you can offer bounties (or artwork or learn how to code). If you're not ready for any of those things then how about you let those working on the code work on it at the pace they want to?
Minetest is ran by volunteers who work on the code on their own free time for their own reasons (I guess mostly because they think it's fun). Are you going to ask them to put deadlines on something they are working on as volunteers for fun? Seriously? And then accuse them of having a faulty brain? You sure have some nerve.


I love the way you say


Thank you =]

wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:You sure have some nerve.
The key is I'm not asking anything. It only right to constantly challenge yourself. It's something every sane person needs. Everything you do should be important to you like a job. Of course your job should be something you enjoy. But none the less you should be passionate about it, and not treat it like something that doesn't really matter. And obviously as Casimir pointed out your theory is definitely not working in not having a deadline.


I don't understand how having a deadline makes anything more "passionate". You don't know what drives each of the developers. Maybe they want to get better at coding, maybe they want to have fun, maybe they want to include a feature so they can make their friends drop MC and start using MT... I think that if you take something too seriously with a deadline, you start feeling like it's a chore and the fun disappears (deadlines and whiny people...).

What Casimir fails to see is that it's the modders that are making use of newer features and that's not the responsibility of the engine developers, nor the mods that stop working with people using GIT (I mean, if you're going to build MT in a rolling release schedule then you should know that's bound to happen).
Developers do have their own goals of things they want to implement, they just don't have deadlines for them. When they get coded, they get coded.


EDIT: just wanted to add that no matter what you say or what I say, ultimately the deadlines or no deadlines it's up to the actual devs.

No one said anything about a rolling release schedule( You are right about the doom associated with that). Basically for your own sanity you should decide what you want to add or make better, and estimate how long that should take you(I.E. a deadline). When the deadline is approaching you then can evaluate what you've been working on. If you're not going to make your deadline you can look at what's holding you back and ask yourself "is it necessary for the release, or can I add it later?", If the answer is yes then you obviously need to re evaluate your time frame for completion. Doing this not only makes you a better programmer but allows you to better grasp how long certain things will take. Most new programmers will want to add everything under the sun, but that's just not possible. As for the devs I would hope they have a deadline even if they're keeping it to themselves, for some obscure, but possibly reasonable reason. But to remind you, the devs aren't just making this for themselves, but for every one of us too, where as individual modders may or may not be doing what they are doing for themselves. Regardless, all of the features created by the devs "ARE" the devs responsibilities whether used by modders or used by users.
 

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by solars » Mon Aug 19, 2013 17:11

This talk over release dates is crappy business administrator talk!
A release date makes the software NOT better!

Software developement with "It's done wen it's done":

1. Planing, what shold be done.
2. Build the first task.
3. Test it
4. Remove bugs
5. Begin with point 1 with the new parameter.
-> Wenn a Version is ready that can get used and is enough advanced from the version befor, make a new version. When all the things in the software you want, it is version 1. This can take many many many years. If you build a new engine one day, the version with all in it will be version 2. Many projects are version 0.9.x wenn there are mostly perfect!

Planning: 20%
Programming: 40%
Debugging: 40%

Software developement with release termine:

1. Planing what should be done
2. Make a release day
3. Begin with the build of the first task.
4. Look if you make it to the release day
5. Replaning what should be done
6. Begin with point 1, if the release date is there go to 7
7. Set the release date in the future or publish a buggy software, then go to 1.

Planning: 20%
Documentation of the task there done and there to do: 20%
Time management: 10%
Find the errors in the time management: 10%
Programming: 10%
Debugging: 30%

In real projects, i have seen, the real programming was 1-5% of the time. Planning, time management, documentation of what you have done, discuss with your CEO what you have done when and how long and what do you do. Its all over releases and and the end, there is no time for programming...

Release termins are important in teams where one part is waiting for the other and a CEO must coordinate them. But in the most projects there is a team who can speak and there is the termin not important, if it not goes for money, money, money....
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by wcwyes » Mon Aug 19, 2013 17:34

solars wrote:This talk over release dates is crappy business administrator talk!

wow, you've caught me. Is that a bad thing? or are you saying all business admins are crappy?
solars wrote:Release termins are important in teams where one part is waiting for the other and a CEO must coordinate them.
there are people running projects with this software, some of them depend on the unstable version right now, some of those people are waiting for the stable version of 0.4.8 to be able to achieve their plans. I'm pretty sure BadWolf is one of those people.
 

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by solars » Mon Aug 19, 2013 18:02

wcwyes wrote:
solars wrote:This talk over release dates is crappy business administrator talk!

wow, you've caught me. Is that a bad thing? or are you saying all business admins are crappy?


Woah, I won't call people crappy... NEVER!
The talk is crappy. ;)

wcwyes wrote:there are people running projects with this software, some of them depend on the unstable version right now, some of those people are waiting for the stable version of 0.4.8 to be able to achieve their plans. I'm pretty sure BadWolf is one of those people.


Is the name important? Or is there anything announced for 0.4.8 what is not in there yet? A termin for a next release is not improving the work of thirdparts. If there is a termin then the termin it is not reliable or when it is, there can be buggy software only for getting the deadline.
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by leo_rockway » Mon Aug 19, 2013 18:57

wcwyes wrote:No one said anything about a rolling release schedule( You are right about the doom associated with that).


A lot of people are using GIT as rolling release (I am one of them). I didn't say anything about doom. I use Arch testing after all and I have versionitis, so I don't see anything wrong with rolling release as long as you know what you're getting into.

wcwyes wrote:Basically for your own sanity you should decide what you want to add or make better, and estimate how long that should take you(I.E. a deadline).


No, no "I.E. a deadline". A deadline is a deadline, not a rough estimation. I do agree that an estimation should be made, but in proprietary software when the deadline is reached you have to release. There is no "but".

wcwyes wrote:When the deadline is approaching you then can evaluate what you've been working on. If you're not going to make your deadline you can look at what's holding you back and ask yourself "is it necessary for the release, or can I add it later?", If the answer is yes then you obviously need to re evaluate your time frame for completion. Doing this not only makes you a better programmer but allows you to better grasp how long certain things will take. Most new programmers will want to add everything under the sun, but that's just not possible. As for the devs I would hope they have a deadline even if they're keeping it to themselves, for some obscure, but possibly reasonable reason.


I agree here, except on the choice of word. If you maintain that by deadline you mean "rough estimation" then that's great. There is no obscure reason, though. Go to IRC and talk to the devs; they are not unreachable.

wcwyes wrote:But to remind you, the devs aren't just making this for themselves, but for every one of us too, where as individual modders may or may not be doing what they are doing for themselves. Regardless, all of the features created by the devs "ARE" the devs responsibilities whether used by modders or used by users.


No, the devs don't have to answer to anybody: "This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."
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by wcwyes » Mon Aug 19, 2013 20:22

leo_rockway wrote:
I agree here, except on the choice of word. If you maintain that by deadline you mean "rough estimation" then that's great. There is no obscure reason, though. Go to IRC and talk to the devs; they are not unreachable.
I believe solars was the one who started using the term deadline
solars wrote:No termin is a way for good programming. In open source, the most projects are better with no termin. With termin, you must forget some of the problems to hold the termin, without, you can get rid of the problems and test the release without deadline pressure.

leo_rockway wrote:
wcwyes wrote:But to remind you, the devs aren't just making this for themselves, but for every one of us too, where as individual modders may or may not be doing what they are doing for themselves. Regardless, all of the features created by the devs "ARE" the devs responsibilities whether used by modders or used by users.


No, the devs don't have to answer to anybody: "This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."

I never said anything about the devs answering to anyone, but to make something for other people you do have a responsibility to those people, that's why the most recent version is marked unstable because they are being responsible in that aspect. I can't say whether they have an estimated time of release, I was hoping a dev would chime in to answer BadWolf's question
Last edited by wcwyes on Mon Aug 19, 2013 20:24, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by leo_rockway » Mon Aug 19, 2013 23:49

wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:
I agree here, except on the choice of word. If you maintain that by deadline you mean "rough estimation" then that's great. There is no obscure reason, though. Go to IRC and talk to the devs; they are not unreachable.
I believe solars was the one who started using the term deadline
solars wrote:No termin is a way for good programming. In open source, the most projects are better with no termin. With termin, you must forget some of the problems to hold the termin, without, you can get rid of the problems and test the release without deadline pressure.


Fair enough, I apologize then. I thought you had talked about deadlines. Most free software projects do have roadmaps.

wcwyes wrote:
leo_rockway wrote:
wcwyes wrote:But to remind you, the devs aren't just making this for themselves, but for every one of us too, where as individual modders may or may not be doing what they are doing for themselves. Regardless, all of the features created by the devs "ARE" the devs responsibilities whether used by modders or used by users.


No, the devs don't have to answer to anybody: "This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."

I never said anything about the devs answering to anyone, but to make something for other people you do have a responsibility to those people, that's why the most recent version is marked unstable because they are being responsible in that aspect. I can't say whether they have an estimated time of release, I was hoping a dev would chime in to answer BadWolf's question


I don't think they have any responsibility. They could stop developing Minetest right now if they wanted, or not listen at all to what people want. That would be a jerk move, true, but to call it a responsibility is a stretch.

Devs are usually more active in IRC, but they do post here too, so they might still chime in.
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