DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Fri Mar 25, 2016 22:34

I am working on a kid friendly version of minetest which is essentially going to be several subgames bundled together over at http://SandboxGameMaker.com I do have forums there which are kid friendly though I need to organize them better since I have it set up now for two software products. I do also own http://makeagamefree.com which I was thinking of using to host the edu version of minetest since I have been debating if my site is too cluttered with the other software already offered there and any insight would be extremely welcomed. I feel like this is something we could definitely work together on and I'm definitely not trying to make things more complicated but I think minetest has fantastic potential to help get kids into game design and learning coding in addition to being a great and easy to use creative outlet aka my original vision for Sandbox posted on the site.

I have zero problem changing the WTF licenses with mods I use and I definitely don't expect all WTF licenses to be changed over. The main thing is new mods can make the change if they'd like and then we can browse the repos at school. Repos that still use WTF I just won't have them look at. I have zero problem with people using CC0 over my license and perhaps that is what I should have suggested from the get go. I was initially thinking that rewording it so that it basically says the same thing but uses friendlier language would be an easy and painless switch for people interested.

Thanks so much for your insight. Take care!
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Hybrid Dog » Fri Mar 25, 2016 22:40


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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by gunvolt » Sat Mar 26, 2016 01:07

celeron55 wrote:I agree that WTFPL was a better idea a few years ago when Mine* was more of a college kid thing rather than a family thing.

However, it's practically impossible to switch every piece of content away from that license, and regardless of that, going around changing licenses is not something I consider respectful towards the people who have originally made stuff under said license. Even then, that license is not the only place around here containing such language.

The good thing is, the nature of WTFPL is such that if you want to use something licensed under it for teaching or whatnot, you can legally just strip away the license, replacing it with nothing or absolutely anything you desire.

For those who want to switch away from WTFPL, I strongly suggest CC0. Its intention is the same, but it has more legalese to cover everyone's asses if things go really bad.

If there is need for a "kid-correct" english forum, maybe I or somebody else could host one. I'm a bit doubtful about whether enough content would be posted on it, and very doubtful about whether there's enough manpower for moderating it. It could work if some of these teachers want to take up the task. If people are interested, either post in this thread or PM me so that I can try to estimate the chances of success for such a thing.

Great idea. I agree that cc0 is a better pseudo-PD license.
Maybe you could just try to create a automatic nsfw filter, too.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Wuzzy » Sat Mar 26, 2016 22:52

Oh, come on, this is fucking bullshit. Don't you have more serious problems than license names?

Nothing is wrong with the word “fuck”. In fact, is is quite useful. Citing Wikipedia: “Fuck has a very flexible role in English grammar, including use as both a transitive and intransitive verb, and as an adjective, adverb, and noun.[14] It can also be used as an interjection and a grammatical ejaculation. Linguist Geoffrey Hughes found eight distinct usages for English curse words, and fuck can apply to each.”. Removing this word from English would be fucking insane. (See what I did there?)

Also, I think we already have a huge mess of licenses, adding one more just adds to the confusion. You're not helping. :-( You are making things worse. And I find the acronym DWYWPL really hard to remember, WTFPL is much easier because of the “WTF” part in it. WTF is also a common part of chat slang for “What The Fuck”. Maybe it's because of the name because this license is pretty popular. :)
Also that DWhateverIForgotTheName license is redundant. As celeron55 has suggested, if you really want to cling on your crazy delusion that the word “fuck” must be removed from the language, you can just use any other of the “Public Domain” licenses like CC0.

DWWYWYWWWXVPL (that's what it's called, right?) is completely unknown, hard to remember and completely redundant to WTFPL. I rather stick with WTFPL then. I basically chose WTFPL because I do not want to trample on the freedom of others and it is very easy to understand, without all that legalese. I'd rather would use no license at all
because I think everyone should be free to share and adapt data at will, but this is not allowed in the broken copyright systems of the world, everything needs a permission. :-( But this is a different topic.

And I do not think we should submit to the demands of those who like to police language. To those we should rather say: “Get fucking used to it!”
I work at a school with kids K-8th and I would really love having them browse these forums and gits and try out new mods especially over our summer camp and at home but the WTFPL makes it so that I can't even suggest them doing it.

I think this distills the whole “problem” here: If you have a problem that kids will be exposed to supposedly “bad language” in the Internet, then you don't really want them to get to the Internet in the first place. If you are afraid the kids will become “bad” because someone said the word “fuck” in the Internet somewhere, then you are a dangeours lunatic who should not be allowed near kids. There is no safe way to express this.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Don » Sat Mar 26, 2016 23:14

Wuzzy, the issue is not about whether or not we agree with the word. It is about schools, churches, daycares and many other places having rules that prohibit the use. Most parents do not let their little kids swear. By excluding swear words we could potentially open up to a bigger market.

I am all for free speech. If you want to swear then that is up to you. If you want to have a mod called fuck then go ahead. The change in licence is a suggestion and meant to allow mods in more places.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Sun Mar 27, 2016 00:43

I'm surprised that people have taken offense to my initial post, that certainly wasn't my intent at all nor am I trying to take away your free speech. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it was my opinion that swear words will make kids bad. I think you are correct though, their internet access should be restricted and we will only ever go to sites I know are safe, if at all.

For me I am very interested in teaching them the basics of game design and I think Minetest is a fantastic starting point for each of the different areas. I am of course working on my own EDU version with them that has the swear words removed but all it takes is missing one and a kid mentioning something to their parents and the whole course becomes shut down. I imagine you don't have much experience with school systems or parents of kids you work with but it is really that simple and is unfortunately the way of things today. I certainly wish it was different but it isn't up to me.

So I was simply offering a suggestion that I was hoping/thinking would be of little work to mod authors but a great help for people wanting to use the work in educational settings. I can agree that there are enough licenses so what about considering using CC0 instead of WTF?

Thank you for your feedback and insight and hopefully what I am trying to say makes sense. Take care!
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Sun Mar 27, 2016 02:52

So sad when morals and courtesy create such controversy, and get some so worked up.
This has been presented as a suggestion to use for those who want to, and not saying all have to.
If it bothers someone so much, all they need do is not use it, and not make such a fuss over it, no one has said that everyone has to use it that i have seen.
If it makes all more suitable and usable to a wider audience, I think it's great, it may even bring in some new talent and skilled people.
I honestly feel getting so heated over it is senseless.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by jp » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:32

thegreatone wrote:So I applaud anyone who has good morals [...] So sad when morals and courtesy create such controversy

Morals depend on your culture, your education, your beliefs, your experience... This is only a construction of your spirit and can't be universal. The ones who impose their "moral" by describing it intangibly are fundamentally intolerant because their way of thinking excludes everyone who don't comply with their subjective standards.

Courtesy is much better demonstrated with acts, not words. Offering a highly-permissive, free mod - even with a swear word - is already courteous and generous toward the users. Words are unsignificant compared to acts and politeness alone has never made a good code.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by ExeterDad » Sun Mar 27, 2016 13:22

Wuzzy wrote:Oh, come on, this is <== Worthless stuff snipped ==> way to express this.


Really? This is who you are? You refuse to behave any differently in front of children? You have no issue with running your mouth with no regard to the little ears around you? Sure, you do have the right to be foul mouthed at the expense of others merely to create a soap box that you may stand on. Your cause is far from noble.

G'head. Be that person. Minetest doesn't need to worry about gaining a audience. We are perfectly happy that few even know Minetest exists. It is not in my nature to flame folks on message boards. But I have to say I am utterly disgusted with your juvenile behavior.

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by benrob0329 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 15:34

I completely agree that "bad" words are taken too seriously outside of the internet, however that opinion is not shared universaly. If you would like to change the way things are, please explain what is so very appropriate about the f word to all parents and schools.

(Hint: saying "SEX THIS" and "GO HAVE SEX WITH YOURSELF" isn't very appropriate)
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by gunvolt » Sun Mar 27, 2016 15:45

Wuzzy wrote:Oh, come on, this is fucking bullshit. Don't you have more serious problems than license names?

Nothing is wrong with the word “fuck”. In fact, is is quite useful. Citing Wikipedia: “Fuck has a very flexible role in English grammar, including use as both a transitive and intransitive verb, and as an adjective, adverb, and noun.[14] It can also be used as an interjection and a grammatical ejaculation. Linguist Geoffrey Hughes found eight distinct usages for English curse words, and fuck can apply to each.”. Removing this word from English would be fucking insane. (See what I did there?)

Also, I think we already have a huge mess of licenses, adding one more just adds to the confusion. You're not helping. :-( You are making things worse. And I find the acronym DWYWPL really hard to remember, WTFPL is much easier because of the “WTF” part in it. WTF is also a common part of chat slang for “What The Fuck”. Maybe it's because of the name because this license is pretty popular. :)
Also that DWhateverIForgotTheName license is redundant. As celeron55 has suggested, if you really want to cling on your crazy delusion that the word “fuck” must be removed from the language, you can just use any other of the “Public Domain” licenses like CC0.

DWWYWYWWWXVPL (that's what it's called, right?) is completely unknown, hard to remember and completely redundant to WTFPL. I rather stick with WTFPL then. I basically chose WTFPL because I do not want to trample on the freedom of others and it is very easy to understand, without all that legalese. I'd rather would use no license at all
because I think everyone should be free to share and adapt data at will, but this is not allowed in the broken copyright systems of the world, everything needs a permission. :-( But this is a different topic.

And I do not think we should submit to the demands of those who like to police language. To those we should rather say: “Get fucking used to it!”
I work at a school with kids K-8th and I would really love having them browse these forums and gits and try out new mods especially over our summer camp and at home but the WTFPL makes it so that I can't even suggest them doing it.

I think this distills the whole “problem” here: If you have a problem that kids will be exposed to supposedly “bad language” in the Internet, then you don't really want them to get to the Internet in the first place. If you are afraid the kids will become “bad” because someone said the word “fuck” in the Internet somewhere, then you are a dangeours lunatic who should not be allowed near kids. There is no safe way to express this.

What about CC0? Also grows the community and also a more advanced, more liability-reducing public-domain license. The problem is that many parents actually believe that they can block online "bad language," that they should, and actually do, so eliminating them will grow the community. Growth of the community is more important than 5 words, as said by another person in the thread.
I do agree, however, that "f*ck" is an unavoidable thing on the Internet.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Sun Mar 27, 2016 17:32

Those who want to impose their "moral"?
What about those who want to impose their "moral" (which is less considerate toward others?)
This is an age old argument which predates minetest and licensing, etc., and one which will always exist. But it is usually those opposed to considerate censoring of language in the presence of children or others who become very aggressive over the topic, whether verbally or even physically, and the ones who start using personal insults / attacks.

afaiac, neither of these licenses would hold in a court of law anyway, (especially the "wtf") license as just the wording would not be allowed and would be either frowned upon or laughed out of court. Of course I am not a lawyer so I could be very wrong.

It is this simple..., if you like this new wording, then use it. If not..., then don't. But to get all heated over it and begin making personal insults and or attacks is just outright ridiculous, and poor sport.

The writer of this new license has only presented it as a suggestion, with consideration toward the environment they work in..., which is a school, which is using minetest for teaching (which I think is pretty cool).
I, myself do not like, nor appreciate adults who are unable to control themselves in public, especially in the presence of young children, and spew profanities non-stop.
This used to be considered very poor and unacceptable social behavior (and still is to many). And there are those who will fight tooth and nail for their right to do so, regardless of any around them, complaining that their rights are being trampled, while they themselves are guilty of trampling on the rights of those who prefer that language be curbed in an adult manner in public.

Use it or don't..., a simple choice which needs go no further than that.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Tmanyo » Mon Mar 28, 2016 01:37

jp wrote:Oh my god, it says "fuck" in an acronym. That's truly obnoxious, indeed...

Image

FWIW, I'm not going to use your license. I don't give a single shit about the political correctness, for most of devs only good code matters.


What the topic starter said: I work at a school with kids K-8th

He may not even care either if he wasn't working with young kids. So to state your opinion like that is saying " Ha I am not going to use your license so go stick it". So how does this post help the topic??
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Don » Mon Mar 28, 2016 02:14

Tmanyo wrote:
jp wrote:Oh my god, it says "fuck" in an acronym. That's truly obnoxious, indeed...

Image

FWIW, I'm not going to use your license. I don't give a single shit about the political correctness, for most of devs only good code matters.


What the topic starter said: I work at a school with kids K-8th

He may not even care either if he wasn't working with young kids. So to state your opinion like that is saying " Ha I am not going to use your license so go stick it". So how does this post help the topic??

I agree. Personally I think people should chill with the pc stuff. Business like, I think we should cater to as many people as possible.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by benrob0329 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 02:41

Perhaps instead of the DWYWPL, the DYPL (Do what You want Public License)?
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TumeniNodes » Mon Mar 28, 2016 05:38

this is a good read which I like to share, in matters like this.
http://freedomdefined.org/Definition/1.0
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by afflatus » Wed Mar 30, 2016 16:04

I like the initiative, although as celeron55 points out, you can simply change the license on WTFPL code anyway. This provides an easy to understand drop-in replacement.

I know it's fashionable to complain about political correctness, particularly if you have a romantic attachment to being some kind of 'rebel'. The moral side of this argument is of little interest to me - it's about appropriate use of words - F*** has it's place, just not in legal documents, where it is too general to have any definite meaning. Reading the full text just feels like having someone's genitalia in my face without my consent. I hope that's not too blunt for this forum ...

My only reservation is that I don't like the proliferation of licenses as it muddies the waters IMO. The GPL is a piece of legal genius, which properly enshrines freedom. Other licenses seem to fudge the issue to a greater or lesser extent.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Don » Fri Apr 01, 2016 04:23

The issue here is not about freedom of speech. It is not about a player being offended. It is about the code of conduct rule of different organisations. Organisations are free to have a code of conduct. that is not about PC culture. It is about maximising the approval rate of the organization. If Minetest wants to maximize the approval rate then a code of conduct is more important than saying fuck. If you do not care about the growth of Minetest then yes, say fuck all you want.

People do not seem to understand the difference between freedmon of speech and freedom to have a code of conduct. Either that or do not want to have minetest and mods be accepted into organizatiions that have a code of conduct.

Either way it is limiting to Minetest. As a personal opinion saying "bed" words are not a problem. As an organization such as Minetest, until theworld advances to the point that a curse word is normal then I think Minetest should consider the wording of things like a licence more seriously. It is not what you think, it is what the majority thinks as to maximize the outcome.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by kaeza » Fri Apr 01, 2016 08:24

This has devolved into quite a nice fucking discussion right here.

To the OP: Your license is fucking welcome. Thank you! (IANAL, YMMV, and all that).
To the rest: To cite the WTFPL: Do what the fuck you want. You like? Use. Don't like? Go away, shoo.

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Mon Aug 15, 2016 13:04

Just wanted to say I'm super happy to see people switching over to DWYWPL or CC0 vs WTF. Makes life a lot easier when I'm setting up modpacks for the kiddos. Thank you to everyone that does that :)
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by paramat » Mon Aug 15, 2016 14:38

I'll be switching to CC0 for my mods, i'm fairly comfortable with the F word but understand it's use can cause problems.
 

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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Mon Aug 15, 2016 23:11

Thanks so much, that helps a lot!! I don't really mind the F word in normal settings but in a school setting if I even let one slip through it is game over using minetest and maybe the course too which would stink because the kids are absolutely eating it up.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by Tmanyo » Thu Aug 18, 2016 02:03

Another alternative is to not tell the kids what WTFPL means.
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Re: DWYWPL A Kid Friendly Alternative to the WTFPL

by TheReaperKing » Thu Aug 18, 2016 04:14

EDIT - I want to write this a little nicer.

Kids know what WTF means and more importantly their parents do too. But, even more importantly if you've looked at even minetest_game the WTF license is included in quite a few mods which directly uses the F word. Also, why on earth would I ever tell them what WTF means? That is kind of a strange suggestion from you.
Last edited by TheReaperKing on Thu Aug 18, 2016 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
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