Athens (5th Century BC)

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captpete
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Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Sat Apr 14, 2018 01:29

I'm starting a new World on my (private) family MineTest server portraying Athens, Greece at the end of the 5th Century B.C. in 1-to-1 scale. The first section I'm working on is the Agora of Athens (256x256). I've tried to faithfully present the Agora as it was in the 5th Century B.C., as nearly as possible in Minecraft. I haven't completed the terraforming but the buildings are almost completed and sited at their correct elevation and with dimensions as close to the restored and reconstructed drawings I have been able to research as I can in MineTest. I prioritize architectural "look" over exact placement as it was not a city built on a "grid" but grew naturally over the centuries. Schematics and a map MAY be forthcoming if I am satisfied with the result (and are requested ny others). Here are some drawings and screenshots of what I have now.

(All the plans and drawings are from the American School of Classical Studies Digital Collections, Athenian Agora Excavations http://agora.ascsa.net/research?v=list&q=&sort=&t=monument.)

Image
Map of Ancient Athens c. 430 BC

Image
The Agora c. 500 BC

Image
Plan of the Agora at the end of the 5th century B.C. Revised to show contours.

Map of Ancient Athens c. 430 BC.png
Map of Ancient Athens c. 430 BC
(39.49 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Agora c. 500 BC(web).jpg
The Agora c. 500 BC
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Attachments
Plan of the Agora at the end of the 5th Cent. B.C. (web).jpg
Plan of the Agora at the end of the 5th century B.C. Revised to show contours.
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Last edited by captpete on Sun Apr 15, 2018 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Sat Apr 14, 2018 01:45

Here's some screenshots:


Northern Part of the Agora.
Image

Perspective drawing of the northwest corner of the Agora, looking northwest, in the last quarter of the 5th century B.C.
Image

Northwest corner of the Agora.
Image

Northern part of Agora.jpg
Northern part of the Agora.
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Perspective drawing of the northwest corner of the Agora, looking northwest, in the last quarter of the 5th century B.C. (web).jpg
Perspective drawing of the northwest corner of the Agora, looking northwest, in the last quarter of the 5th century B.C.
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NW corner of the Agora.jpg
Northwest corner of the Agora
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Sat Apr 14, 2018 02:00

More screenshots:

Image
Southern part of the Agora.

Image
West side of the Agora.

Image
South side of the Agora.


Southern part of Agora.jpg
Southern part of the Agora.
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West side of the Agora.jpg
West side of the Agora.
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South side of the Agoira.jpg
South side of the Agora.
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STOA BASILEIO (Royal Stoa)

by captpete » Sat Apr 14, 2018 16:31

The Royal Stoa was built about 500 BC in limestone (I'm using sandstone from the "Romecraft GERMANIA 16" Texture Pack from MineCraft through the "mccompat" mod though I do have limestone from the "stone" mod just not satisfied with my 32px images and overlays I made for it yet, and the originals are 16px and too blurry.) My MineText Textures are "Athery's Ascended v33 Resource Pack" from MineCraft converted with "MineTest Texture and Resource Pack Converter".

It was extensively rebuilt during the 5th century after the Persian armies destruction. Two projecting wings were added between 410 and 400 but I choose not to add them. I also added marble/quartz to the structure as I though appropriate for the rebuilding after the Persian destruction.

I'm not happy with the columns as they are twice the diameter of the originals (I have the Deambuilder ModPack but the included "castle" mod has no pillars that look like marble/quartz though they are the close 0.5 block diameter.) and I don't have a ""-looking block so I had to improvise from other available blocks. Also there doesn't seem to be any roof tiles that look correct so I'm using "building_blocks:Roofing" from Dreambuilder.

Here's my current version:

Image
STOA BASILEIO (Royal Stoa)

Image
Restored plan and elevation of the Royal Stoa in its first period.

Image
Restored section through the Royal Stoa, with superimposed columns.

Royal Stoa.jpg
STOA BASILEIO (Royal Stoa)
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Restored plan and elevation of the Royal Stoa in its first period (web).jpg
Restored plan and elevation of the Royal Stoa in its first period.
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Restored section through the Royal Stoa, with superimposed columns (web).jpg
Restored section through the Royal Stoa, with superimposed columns.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - STOA BASILEIO

by captpete » Sun Apr 15, 2018 15:59

OK here's the latest try at the Royal Stoa. I've been working on the "castle" mod's list of materials and have added the missing default textures in addition to some of the textures in the appropriate "building_blocks", "darkage", "quartz", and "tecnic" mods. I'll be adding the "stones" mod textures today. That should give me more to work with in all of my historical and other worlds. More pictures, drawings, plans and schematics to come. You may use and/or modify the schematics for your own use as long as you site me as the original source and don't "sell" them.

Image
Royal Stoa - 2nd attempt with the "oath stone" in front and the dual-throne right behind the pillars.

Image
Royal Stoa interior (with hides for thr "laws" and pillar bases for the 3 unknown squares on the on the left of the restoration plans - I assume statue bases?)

Royal Stoa 2.jpg
Royal Stoa - 2nd attempt
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Royal Stoa interior.jpg
Royal Stoa interior (with hides for thr "laws" and pillar bases for the 3 unknown squares on the on the left of the plans - I assume statue bases?)
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STOA BASILEIO.zip
Royal Stoa Schematic and metadata.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by hajo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 19:41

captpete wrote:I'm starting a new World on my (private) family MineTest server portraying
Athens, Greece at the end of the 5th Century B.C. in 1-to-1 scale. ..
I haven't completed the terraforming but the buildings are almost completed
Schematics and a map MAY be forthcoming

Awesome !
How did you find a suitable map, and a location for building this project ?

(All the plans and drawings are from the American School of Classical Studies Digital Collections,
Athenian Agora Excavations http://agora.ascsa.net/research?v=list&q=&sort=&t=monument.)

Interesting stuff to read...
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Sun Apr 15, 2018 23:44

hajo wrote:Awesome !
How did you find a suitable map, and a location for building this project ?

(All the plans and drawings are from the American School of Classical Studies Digital Collections,
Athenian Agora Excavations http://agora.ascsa.net/research?v=list&q=&sort=&t=monument.)

Interesting stuff to read...


Thanks for the encouragement.

Nothing so elaborate, I just created a Flat World and created a 256x256 square at 0,0,0 as the base for the Agora. It's actual elevation is 50 meters above sea level so my 0,0,0 represents that elevation. Almost all of Athens is above that level - at least the ancient City - so it should work out OK. Terraforming the hills is the hard part really as the ancient elevations were quite different (except for the Acropolis which is a great rock jutting out of the earth) so I rely on the excavation state plans for my elevations. Not all areas are covered so that's a hassle. And different Centuries will have covered the older foundations so there's a bit of guesstimating involved. Restorations also differ and MineTest does not do changes less than a meter well for terraforming the land so I have to fudge a bit.

All, in all an intellectual challenge that keeps my 70yr old brain ticking along.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Mon Apr 16, 2018 13:00

Just a note on any schematics I publish. It is highly unlikely you will achieve the same results as in my screenshots.

I have extensively modified the "mccompat" mod to correct some errors and inconsistencies (see my posts in the "mccompat" mod topic for some idea of the changes) and note that it is inherently flawed in it's approach especially, in the current versions of MuneTest. It needs a rewrite and re-programming to conform to current naming practice in it's use of the "stairs" mod and it's (non)use of the "doors" mod to get the appropriate blocks. I am not a Lua programmer but am familiar with programming principles enough to do some basic programming changes to get better results from the mod but not enough to rewrite the underlying code, at least not currently.

I have added materials to the "castle" modpack ("castle_masonry" sub-mod - see the comments in the "init.lua" file and my post in that topic) to updated it to the latest version of MineTest materials and to add materials from the "darkage", "building_blocks" and "tecnics" (from "dreambuilder modpack"), "quartz" and "stone" mods.

I have also added textures to both Texture Packs (mentioned in the initial post) used either to get 32px textures or to compliment my themed worlds. The textures are either created by me or are from the extensive collection of MineCraft and MineTest Texture Packs I have, mostly "John Smith ..." and "hdx ..." along with other Medieval/Roman/Greek TPs.

All in all a very customized setup here and will probably never be released to the public as I don't want to deal with the license issues. That said, if you have any questions you may contact me in the usual ways and I will elaborate on any modifications/additions I've made.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - BOULEUTERION

by captpete » Mon Apr 16, 2018 13:54

The Bouleuterion (the original ca. 500 BC - see initial post) is the next of the buildings at the opening of the 5th Century BC I created. It is a very unimpressive building created out of limestone and wood and was built around 500 BC. It was the Athenian "Senate of Five Hundred", composed of 50 delegates for each of the ten new tribes of Athens and was extensively renovated during the Century. A New Bouleterion was built near the end of the 5th century BC and the old building was renovated into the Metroon, a repository of state archives. Note that the ceiling and roof were originally of wood and the current build reflects that 500 BC construction.

Image
Tholos and Old Bouleuterion about 450 B.C.. The interior room was a step up according to some sources which I have modeled.

Image
The Old Bouleuterion. Reconstructions vary on 2 or 3 entrances.

Image
The Old Bouleuterion interior. I forgot the Alter, sorry - just add a slab in the center (You might use the anvil from the "anvil" mod in the "dreambuilder" mod pack.)

Tholos and Old Bouleuterion about 450 B.C. (web).jpg
Tholos and Old Bouleuterion about 450 B.C.
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The Old Bouleuterion.jpg
The Old Bouleuterion
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The Old Bouleuterion interior.jpg
The Old Bouleuterion interior.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by solars » Mon Apr 16, 2018 21:21

Wow! I love this map!

I hope, I can see someday the whole ancient Athen on your map. :)
And i find the historical data and maps also interesting. Thank you for this!

Will you fill the areas with unknown development too?
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by twoelk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 21:06

wow,
quite an ambitious project. hope you can build faster than I do on my roman project.
I had started my project trying to use mtg blocks only for the buildings but have since come to the conclusion I may need a specific more historic looking collection of nodes.
looking at some of your buildings I guess I should indeed start a modpack that suits the mediterranean cultures of around 900bc to 500ce - libraries for example just don't look right with books and amphores should be all over the place. I had fooled around with some mc nodes and the effect was pretty convincing, allas my skills and above all my time is only limited.

maybe we could join forces and canibalize some mods so as to concentrate on the "fitting in period" stuff only, throw out the too modern medieval stuff and add whats missing along the way.

btw my roman settlement allready includes a small greek temple and some houses of the Olynthos style in the greek quarter.

At the moment I'm somewhat stuck at building a theater in the greek quarter and in another part of the town an horrea besides having to find variations in trying to furnish the handfull of private houses I have so far.

I have added a link to this thread in the "Modelling Realworld Content" section of the Mods:Learning page on the wiki.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:38

I do plan to expand the map but the timeline to do so is undetermined. This is a work in process and I'm constantly updating the initial placeholder builds as I ferret out more archaeological detail and interpolate it to the MineTest form. The Acropolis and Elysium areas are on my list to do this year and I may include the Areopagus and the Theater of Dionysus and Temple of Zeus areas. I'm also modding the mods [Grin] to make them more Greek-look-like architecturally using the actual materials and forms used by the builders.

I just added a vertical split overlay to the "stone" mod so as to portray the marble and limestone lintels used in the building. I also have sample images of Pentelic Marble and Ionian Beige Limestone (the actual materials used by the builders) to use. Still not sure about the later 5th Century roof tiles - were they marble or terracotta. Leaning toward marble and trying out darkage:mable_tile for the roofs of the later buildings/reconstructions. Lots of use of the Inventory Saw in Dreambuilder for the blocks. Also I may have to create a Doric triglyph block - the friezes could be any slice of decorative block.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Thu Apr 19, 2018 16:30

twoelk wrote:wow,
quite an ambitious project. hope you can build faster than I do on my roman project.
I had started my project trying to use mtg blocks only for the buildings but have since come to the conclusion I may need a specific more historic looking collection of nodes.
looking at some of your buildings I guess I should indeed start a modpack that suits the mediterranean cultures of around 900bc to 500ce - libraries for example just don't look right with books and amphores should be all over the place. I had fooled around with some mc nodes and the effect was pretty convincing, allas my skills and above all my time is only limited.


---
I agree that it's difficult to get the Greek and Roman "look". I mentioned the Resource (Texture) Packs I'm using in a previous post. Since I use the "mccompat" mod I, in effect, have 2 standard sets of textures available to me: one I use through mcresconvert.sh - a shell script to convert MC resources to Minetest and select as my MineTest Texture; the other I use through the "mccompat" mod which allows me to use a MineCraft Pack directly.

Since 32px seems to be the easiest to use (I have over 2 dozen MineCraft TPs and a half-dozen native MT TP's in that resolution) I then add other mod's 32px textures (from appropriate mods that already have them) to my selected MT Texures and create 32px textures (images) for missing textures I want to use. I also "enhance" the mods by adding overlays for new blocks in some (i.e. the "stone" mod), adding "materials" (textures) for others (i.e. the "castle_masonary" mod) to the list of materials or correct errors or naming conflicts in others (i.e. the "mccompat" mod).

Since I'm not a Lua programmer, but understand basic "scripting" and programming principles I generally don't screw things up too badly [Grin].
---

maybe we could join forces and canibalize some mods so as to concentrate on the "fitting in period" stuff only, throw out the too modern medieval stuff and add whats missing along the way.


---
As I posted earlier in this thread some of my modifications are in the appropriate mods forum topic and I'd be glad to share my "diffs" on them privately.
---
btw my roman settlement allready includes a small greek temple and some houses of the Olynthos style in the greek quarter.


---
It's a bit premature but here's a couple of screenshots of the Temple of Hephaestus on top of the Agoraios Kolonos hill in the Agora, again it's just preliminary and doesn't use any of my modifications yet.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus.jpg
Temple of Hephaestus on top of the Agoraios Kolonos in the Agora.
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Temple of Hephaestus on top of the Agoraios Kolonos.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus-ponaos and colonnade.jpg
Temple of Hephaestus, the pronaos and colonnade.
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Temple of Hephaestus, the pronaos and colonnade.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus-naos.jpg
Temple of Hephaestus, the naos.
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Temple of Hephaestus, the naos (cella in Roman.)
---

At the moment I'm somewhat stuck at building a theater in the greek quarter and in another part of the town an horrea besides having to find variations in trying to furnish the handfull of private houses I have so far.


---
I'll be doing the Theater of Dionysus later this year so I feel your pain.
---

I have added a link to this thread in the "Modelling Realworld Content" section of the Mods:Learning page on the wiki.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by voxelproof » Thu Apr 19, 2018 18:03

Great project and so far it looks very, very promising. I hope you'll succeed to complete it and then it would become truly magnificent map. Good luck!

BTW remember to add some cypresses and stone pines here and there after completing the map to enhance its Mediterranean ambience. Flora is also part of architecture :)
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - STOA BASILEIO

by captpete » Thu Apr 19, 2018 18:07

Current screenshots of the Royal Stoa after more mod/texture re-working:

Image
Royal Stoa.jpg
Royal Stoa - updated
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Image
Royal Stoa - interior.jpg
Royal Stoa-interior construction (before ceiling added) - updated
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Image
Royal Stoa - interior with ceiling.jpg
Royal Stoa-interior with ceiling - updated
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Fri Apr 20, 2018 18:27

twoelk wrote:At the moment I'm somewhat stuck at building a theater in the greek quarter and in another part of the town an horrea besides having to find variations in trying to furnish the handfull of private houses I have so far.


Here'a a dining room in South Stoa I. It uses "dirrt road" (feldweg) textures (stairs and slab) and "simple bench" all from Dreambuilder ModPack. You could use any decorative block that you can get stairs and slabs from for the dining couches. That's one room taken care of [Grin].

Image
South Stoa I dining room.jpg
South Stoa I - dining room.
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Image
South Stoa I, Room VIII from the east, together with the narrow room at its east side (web).jpg
South Stoa I, Room VIII from the east, together with the narrow room at its east side.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - SE Fountain House,

by captpete » Sat Apr 21, 2018 13:39

The Southeast Fountain House is one of the earliest public buildings in the Agora and was built around 520-530 BC. Since it was a 6th Century building and is in poor condition all that is known is that it was built out of yellow-tinged limestone (i've used a more generic limestone instead of the sample I have of Ioannina Beige Limestone as I haven't created the texture yet) and I have assumed a ceiling/roof of wood (as in the original Bouletuerion) as no roof tiles have been found for it.

This is the next-to-last building from the 6th Century that was still used in the 5th Century which is the focus of my map.

Image
Actual state and restored plans of the Southeast Fountain House, second half of the 6th century B.C..

Image
Southeast Fountain House.

Actual state and restored plans of the Southeast Fountain House, second half of the 6th century B.C. (web).jpg
Actual state and restored plans of the Southeast Fountain House, second half of the 6th century B.C..
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Southeast Fountain House.jpg
Southeast Fountain House.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - Aiakeion

by captpete » Sat Apr 21, 2018 14:19

The Aiakeion (sometimes mis-identified as the Heliaia) was built around 550 BC. Originaly the building was open to the sky as internal supports to carry a roof or ceramic tiles were not found in the excavations. It's in poor condition so my interpretation is as-built in the late 6th Century of limestone and is not quite finished yet. This is the last of the 6th Century buildings extent in the 5th Century Agora.

Image
Perspective drawing of the square enclosure with the propylon and indicating the annex at the northwest corner.

Image
Plan of Square Peribolos original form.

Image
Aiakeion
Attachments
Aiakeion.jpg
Aiakeion
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Plan of Square Peribolos (Heliaia) original form.jpeg
Plan of Square Peribolos (Heliaia?) original form.
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Heliaia- perspective drawing of the square enclosure with the propylon and indicating the annex at the northwest corner (web).jpg
Heliaia- perspective drawing of the square enclosure with the propylon and indicating the annex at the northwest corner.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by voxelproof » Sat Apr 21, 2018 18:57

You could possibly additionally use blocks from Facade mod, they would match very well the theme. Also Mymillwork is excellent, it provides nice round pillars.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by solars » Sat Apr 21, 2018 19:42

captpete wrote:Image


I think, it would look more realistic, if you use simple bed instead of dirt road, for the lectus triclinaris,

All other looks fantastic! Informative and realistic. :) Can't wait for the next updates.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Sun Apr 22, 2018 00:30

solars wrote:
I think, it would look more realistic, if you use simple bed instead of dirt road, for the lectus triclinaris,

All other looks fantastic! Informative and realistic. :) Can't wait for the next updates.


The diners didn't lie flat but reclined on the raised end - a bed doesn't have that raised end. There are many decorative blocks to be used instead of "dirt road" as long as they are compatible with "stairs_plus". That's just what I used as a placeholder though I like the colors.

voxelproof wrote:You could possibly additionally use blocks from Facade mod, they would match very well the theme. Also Mymillwork is excellent, it provides nice round pillars.


Hadn't head of those mods - I'll go and check them out.
 

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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by MineYoshi » Sun Apr 22, 2018 16:59

This map actually looks kind of interesting; I suppose this kind of creations make Minetest a good and different game. Hope to see more soon, captpete.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC) - Temple of Hephaestus

by captpete » Sun Apr 22, 2018 20:48

OK, I've started finishing the 5th Century additions to the Agora. First up will be the most impressive (and still available in real lide), the Temple of Hephaestus. I've done quite a lot since the previous post mentioning the temple. I'm not done with the colonnade or the roof yet but here's what's done now:

(I also need an opinion on the walls of the naos (cella to you Roman types). Currently, as you can see, I'm using marble blocks. I'm wondering if marble bricks would be better... the bricks are half the height of the blocks. Any opinion will be carefully weighed [Grin]. Also, I'm not sure of the height - should it be taller by ??? Blocks?)

Image
The Hephaisteion sign in the Agora.

Image
Naos of the Temple of Hephaisteion.

Image
The Temple of Hephaestus NAOS (take 2).
Attachments
Temple of Hephaestus-naos_2.jpg
The Temple of Hephaestus NAOS (take 2).
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Interior of Hephaisteion (web).jpg
Naos of the Temple of Hephaisteion.
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The Hephaisteion signage (web).jpg
The Hephaisteion sign in the Agora.
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Mon Apr 23, 2018 16:37

OK, here's the Pronaos and Colonnade Still debating the blocks vs. bricks (essentially half-height blocks) issue but leaning towards bricks.

Note: I also replaced the bottom row of marble in the Naos with solid marble as in the original the blocks are double or trip[le the length in the bottom row just like the lintels. I've also added 1 course of blocks to the structure to reflect the actual height of the columns (6m) though that trows off the total height to the roof-line to 10m from it's actual 9m. Tell me if that looks better. I always though my original was too squat but I couldn't stack different slabs, a failing I'd like to see changed in some future version of MineTest. I need to think on the roof-line some more.

Image
Photo of Temple of Hephaestus.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus - section of south side.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus-ponaos and colonnade.
Attachments
Temple of Hephaestus-ponaos and colonnade.jpg
Temple of Hephaestus-ponaos and colonnade
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Temple of Hephaestus - elevation of south side.jpg
Temple of Hephaestus - section of south side
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Temple of Hephaestus-photo.jpg
Photo of Temple of Hephaestus
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Re: Athens (5th Century BC)

by captpete » Mon Apr 23, 2018 19:34

OK, this is my latest revision of the Temple of Hephaestus. I've changed a lot (see the section below and compare with the previous post.) Schematic on request (but you have to have the mods I've added and the modifications to them to get it to look like the screenshot).

Image
Temple of Hephaestus - elevation of south side - take 2.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus - ground view.

Image
Temple of Hephaestus - fly view.
Attachments
Temple of Hephaestus - fly view (web).jpg
Temple of Hephaestus - fly view.
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Temple of Hephaestus - ground view (web).jpg
Temple of Hephaestus - ground view.
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Temple of Hephaestus - elevation of south side_2 (web).jpg
Temple of Hephaestus - elevation of south side - take 2
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