[POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

Punishment for publicly admitted cheating(NOT hacking) ?

Poll ended at Sun Jun 17, 2018 09:45

Permaban
4
67%
1-2 Months
0
No votes
1-2 Weeks
2
33%
1-2 Days
0
No votes
None
0
No votes
Not sure
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 6

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Sun Jun 03, 2018 13:27

ANAND wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:They are actually. At least in the current state CSM is a horrible disaster for server owners since it adds one-click cheats that are technically not even cheating.


Totally agreed.

There are quite a few handy CSMs out there, but the CSM API itself is like a TNT waiting to blow up on each and every server...

Cant a csm "add-blocker" be implemented? where you cant join servers with a csm if they have the option enabled? It could also be used to block specific csm's, tbh there are quite alot of cheat csm's out there, though im not sure how some which were banned like chest_inspector fit into this category?
Last edited by Stix on Sun Jun 03, 2018 13:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Wuzzy » Sun Jun 03, 2018 13:43

Whether CSMs can be cheats is an interesting and difficult question which needs to be discussed.

So they can be used to gain an advantage, this is clear. Is this enough for a cheat? I am not sure.

The question is if this advantage is unfair. After all, CSMs are (like it or not) an official feature and every other player can install those CSMs as well.

Another question is whether CSMs constitute 3rd party tools. Well, this is another difficult question. Yes, they are written from 3rd parties. However, one could argue they act more like plugins. But technically, they are still pretty darn similar to 3rd party hacking tools.

Note I condemn CSMs as they are implemented right now a lot. However, I find it hard to automatically call them “cheats”, because they are an official feature.

But it's still not so simple: CSMs are an intended and official feature in Minetest. They are not a feature of games and servers. From the viewpoint of Minetest, CSMs are never cheats, as they are an intended feature, and as long the CSM uses the official API in the official Minetest, there is simply hacking attempt involved.
By that logic, one could argue that CSMs are never cheats.

However, from the viewpoint of games and servers, this is getting more problematic: CSMs completely throw all assumptions you could previously make about the player under the bus.
From the viewpoint of a game, a CSM could very well constitute an unallowed 3rd party tool and thus a cheat. CSM mean loss of control for game makers and server operators. Let me recite my definition of “cheat”:
In the context of video games, cheating is when you break the rules of the game to give yourself an unfair advantage.


Let us look at a simple example, oredetect. In a game in which you dig and search for ores, the embedded rule of the game is that you do not just know where to find every ore without looking at it. Oredetect throws this embedded rule under the bus, thus breaking it, thus gaining an unfair advantage over players who might not even know that CSMs exist.

Under this logic, CSMs CAN be cheats. Many server operators were heavily opposed to CSMs (at least in its current form) for precisely this reason.

HOWEVER, one might argue AGAIN that all games are based on Minetest, extending it, so to say, so they “inherit” all the embedded rules of Minetest, which would in turn mean that CSMs aren't cheats, ever. Since everyone can install CSMs, it's not unfair.

This argument might in turn be dismissed again by the anti-CSM side by simply saying that the game in question did not anticipate or welcome the addition of CSMs into Minetest.

You see, this matter is complicated to the point it might you go nuts. :D
One solution out of this dilemma would be simply writing down on server side whether CSMs are forbidden or allowed. This sucks.

Now can CSMs be cheats? Well, I don't know, really, but I tend towards “yes”. I also like to hear your view on CSMs.

What IS clear is that CSMs can be very unfair, like oredetect.
This is a problem: The level playing field is destroyed by CSMs. To restore the level playing field, all players would be basically forced to install all CSMs everyone else is using in order to stand a chance. This just complicates Minetest usability, ironically.
Since CSMs are tolerated in Minetest, it is impossible for a server to enforce some rules of the game, like “you can't look through stone”.

So CSMs might or might not be cheats, but they sure can be unfair like hell.

I myself do not use any CSMs, by the way.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by stu » Sun Jun 03, 2018 16:26

Please, let's not get back to that CSM bashing nonsense. In future versions servers will have control over which CSM features the official client will be allowed to use. For now it is largely down to trust, however, if a server has explicitly stated that the use of CSMs is prohibited (as many have) then doing so would be breaking the rules, it's as simple as that :P
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by TumeniNodes » Sun Jun 03, 2018 17:05

While the ability to use csms is indeed an added feature, csms themselves should be held to specific standards. Meaning there should be some set of requirements/rules they need to follow to be viewed as "supported" or "ok to use. (an even better tag would be "approved")
And then servers have their own decision as to which they will/will not allow.

It is trivial to add some sort of a tag to a csm being approved by the community or devs.
This would help end users who wish to explore or use them, use ones which are not going to cause problems.

But on-topic of this thread.
Even using an "approved" csm, and modifying it to work with other code, not within the csm itself, is "hacking/cheating"
Using an "approved" csm on it's own is not..., unless the server you use it on, forbids it's use.

None of these things are difficult to understand.
Where the difficulty lays..., is with individuals who are unable to see things as most others do, or grasp concepts of commonsense, logic, and reasoning the same as most others do.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by stu » Sun Jun 03, 2018 17:19

TumeniNodes wrote:But on-topic of this thread.
Even using an "approved" csm, and modifying it to work with other code, not within the csm itself, is "hacking/cheating"
Using an "approved" csm on it's own is not..., unless the server you use it on, forbids it's use.

This is precisely why client-side mods will be restricted by 'feature' rather than trying to ban specific mods. It really shouldn't matter if the CSM code is modified. Using a hacked client to bypass the restriction is another issue entirely but would most definitely be considered cheating.

An official repository with only approved mods and some kind of authentication would be the ideal situation, however, that would be more to protect clients themselves rather than servers.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Mon Jun 04, 2018 01:51

Wuzzy wrote:Since everyone can install CSMs, it's not unfair.


I disagree with this - Just because everyone can commit a crime, Doesn't mean the crime can't be considered a crime.

TumeniNodes wrote:It is trivial to add some sort of a tag to a csm being approved by the community or devs.
This would help end users who wish to explore or use them, use ones which are not going to cause problems.


This would fit in nicely with the ContentDB, and the only CSMs allowed on public servers should be the ones tagged "Multiplayer-focused".

IMHO, the server itself should select CSMs which are okay to be used on them, and the code is sent from the server to players on player join. i.e. CSMs should be stored server-side, meaning that the players won't have any control over the code, but can enable / disable specific CSMs if they want to. AFAIK, the mod channels don't work this way, but it'd be great if they do :)
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by csirolli » Mon Jun 04, 2018 14:01

What is a CSM? Also, would the use of a texture pack that gives the player an advantage (such as being able to see through nodes) be considered cheating/hacking? Like ANAND is saying about CSMs, these kind of texture packs are something that anyone can create and install, but is it okay and fair?
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Mon Jun 04, 2018 15:20

csirolli wrote:What is a CSM? Also, would the use of a texture pack that gives the player an advantage (such as being able to see through nodes) be considered cheating/hacking? Like ANAND is saying about CSMs, these kind of texture packs are something that anyone can create and install, but is it okay and fair?


A certain player did keep saying that he had installed a texture pack that makes all nodes transparent. So I set to test it out, but it wasn't a great success. To make a node completely transparent, a certain param in the node's definition has to be modified (courtesy of rubenwardy).

But theoretically, a "hacked client" could certainly be modified to ignore that param, and just render all nodes with transparent textures.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Mon Jun 04, 2018 16:53

I believe that "certain player" was referring to this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17688&hilit=x+ray+pack
*EDIT: note that this is actually aloud on quite a few servers...
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Mon Jun 04, 2018 18:35

Stix wrote:I believe that "certain player" was referring to this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17688&hilit=x+ray+pack
*EDIT: note that this is actually aloud on quite a few servers...


I was referring to PETE actually; kept bragging about being able to see through everything :)
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by csirolli » Mon Jun 04, 2018 19:38

Stix wrote:I believe that "certain player" was referring to this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17688&hilit=x+ray+pack
*EDIT: note that this is actually aloud on quite a few servers...

Would using a texture pack like that be allowed or is it considered cheating/hacking?
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by Stix » Mon Jun 04, 2018 20:09

csirolli wrote:
Stix wrote:I believe that "certain player" was referring to this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17688&hilit=x+ray+pack
*EDIT: note that this is actually aloud on quite a few servers...

Would using a texture pack like that be allowed or is it considered cheating/hacking?

It really just depends on the server.
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by ANAND » Tue Jun 05, 2018 01:40

Stix wrote:It really just depends on the server.


As a rule of thumb, such controversial texture packs are a definite no-no in PvP / Survival servers.

In creative servers however... why would you even want to use them there? :P
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by stu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 17:55

I guess using x-ray texture packs is a bit of a grey area, I mean quite literally :D

Seriously though, these are not nearly as advantageous as you might imagine and should no longer work with the 0.4.17 client. Once again, using anything that gives you an unfair advantage in a game is blatantly cheating.
 

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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by csirolli » Tue Jun 05, 2018 20:32

stu wrote:I guess using x-ray texture packs is a bit of a grey area, I mean quite literally :D

Seriously though, these are not nearly as advantageous as you might imagine and should no longer work with the 0.4.17 client. Once again, using anything that gives you an unfair advantage in a game is blatantly cheating.

I just confirmed that "x-ray" tps don't work in 0.4.17. One more cheat gone. Good job devs!
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Re: What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Tue Jun 05, 2018 20:34

Don't they work client-side ? Or also not server side ?
If not server side :
o.o would really have liked to try it out :(
Else :
Okay, I'm fine with it.
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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by paramat » Sat Jun 09, 2018 21:39

> A Bot is a programm that assists you playing a game by simulatin inputs,
In short:
It's a "firend" who helps you playing pressing the right keys in right situations.
IT DOES NOT CHANGE GAME PHYSICS OR GRAPHICS!
(e.g. disable redscreen, make you fly, make you move fast through wate are things a bot doesn't do!)

Good grief, LMD and KGM please can you stop opening polls that are so obviously about your recent ban from CTF while trying to appear unrelated, that essentially argue against your ban. This is the 3rd one.
In the locked poll i would have voted 'no' to bots being posted in the form, since they are cheats.

> Punishment for publicly admitted cheating(NOT hacking) ?

Some cheats are hacking, including your bot on CTF.

> Yes - 30 - 88%
No - 2 - 6 %
Not sure - 2 - 6 %
Total votes : 34
Apparently YES is the communities answer.
Let's start a new one.

You didn't like the response, looks like you and KGM voted no, so you are opening another poll.

> He did not publish a cheat, but multi-purpose tuto.

Sounds like a pathetic attempt to carry out his threats and try to get away with it. It was obvious so it was deleted. The threats were bad enough but i am amazed KGM actually went ahead, i suggest they have a forum temp-ban for that.

LMD i understand you share an internet connection with KGM, i suggest you get this person under control before they get your connection banned from more servers or elsewhere. It is in your interest to do so, you are better behaved than KGM and it would be unfortunate they get you punished through IP bans.
Please stop defending KGM and opening these sneaky topics about your CTF ban.

Now mods, why hasn't KGM been given a temp ban from the forum?
 

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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by rubenwardy » Sat Jun 09, 2018 22:02

I temp banned then for 3 days a few days ago for that and all their spam
 

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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by paramat » Sat Jun 09, 2018 22:17

3 days is nothing, they may only visit the forum every few days. KGM needs 2 weeks ban i feel.
 

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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by LMD » Sun Jun 10, 2018 09:02

Have you read enough about the situation before making such rash decisions paramat ?
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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by KGM » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:36

paramat wrote:> A Bot is a programm that assists you playing a game by simulatin inputs,
In short:
It's a "firend" who helps you playing pressing the right keys in right situations.
IT DOES NOT CHANGE GAME PHYSICS OR GRAPHICS!
(e.g. disable redscreen, make you fly, make you move fast through wate are things a bot doesn't do!)

Good grief, LMD and KGM please can you stop opening polls that are so obviously about your recent ban from CTF while trying to appear unrelated, that essentially argue against your ban. This is the 3rd one.
In the locked poll i would have voted 'no' to bots being posted in the form, since they are cheats.

> Punishment for publicly admitted cheating(NOT hacking) ?

Some cheats are hacking, including your bot on CTF.

> Yes - 30 - 88%
No - 2 - 6 %
Not sure - 2 - 6 %
Total votes : 34
Apparently YES is the communities answer.
Let's start a new one.

You didn't like the response, looks like you and KGM voted no, so you are opening another poll.

> He did not publish a cheat, but multi-purpose tuto.

Sounds like a pathetic attempt to carry out his threats and try to get away with it. It was obvious so it was deleted. The threats were bad enough but i am amazed KGM actually went ahead, i suggest they have a forum temp-ban for that.

LMD i understand you share an internet connection with KGM, i suggest you get this person under control before they get your connection banned from more servers or elsewhere. It is in your interest to do so, you are better behaved than KGM and it would be unfortunate they get you punished through IP bans.
Please stop defending KGM and opening these sneaky topics about your CTF ban.

Now mods, why hasn't KGM been given a temp ban from the forum?

1. I am not controllable! When I wanna do somethin I do It!
2. You try to sow discord between me and my brother (LMD try to control me ... ), that won't work.
3. What I did form my 3 days ban until now is not against law nor against forum rules. banning me by now would only have the consequence that I would complain about that. And then I would be unbanned, because ban would not be justified. futhermore, the banner may get a warning!
4. I am NOT stupid! I know what I can be banned for an I will avoid such cases properly!

@stu/everyone:
stu wrote:Seriously though, these are not nearly as advantageous as you might imagine and should no longer work with the 0.4.17 client. Once again, using anything that gives you an unfair advantage in a game is blatantly cheating.

Due to my recent activity I saw most people think like this.
A little question to all of you:
Why Is
a better ethernet connection
a better computer
(betther graphics card)
(betther cpu)
(more ram)
(faster ram)
less distraction in enviroment
physically less distance to host resulting in faster connection
a better mouse
a better keyboard
a bigger screen
turing down screen resolution fore more fps
cheats as well, as they give you an advantage over others?

If you can't answer that question, your rule that everything that gives you "unfair" advantage is cheat may be wrong.

paramat wrote : "i suggest they have a forum temp-ban for that."
@paramat: REALLY?! WHAT I DO ON NON MINETEST FORUMS PAGES IS MY AND ONLY MY PROBLEM!!!!
NO MODERATOR CAN BAN ME FOR WHAT I DO ELSEWHERE!!!

to quote henry stickman game:
judge: whats this?
paramat: It's evidence!
judge: and how exactly does this prove anything?
...
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Re: [POLL]New poll ! What is hacking/cheating ?

by sfan5 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:14

KGM wrote:banning me by now would only have the consequence that I would complain about that. And then I would be unbanned, because ban would not be justified. futhermore, the banner may get a warning!

KGM wrote:REALLY?! WHAT I DO ON NON MINETEST FORUMS PAGES IS MY AND ONLY MY PROBLEM!!!!
NO MODERATOR CAN BAN ME FOR WHAT I DO ELSEWHERE!!!

That's not how it works. I suggest you review the forum rules again, in particular the first and last point.
In effect this means moderators can ban you for any or no reason, you will not be unbanned by crying to celeron55 and moderators will face no consequences for banning you.

This post serves as a final warning to drop the dicussion of cheating/hacking, disallowed licenses or any other rules put in place by forum moderators or individual Minetest servers.
Refrain from creating topics about these, do not bring this up in the "Servers" section, do not try to argue against the rules.
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