Please make more games!

User avatar
paramat
Developer
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat
Location: UK

Re: Please make more games!

by paramat » Post

Xudo, i agree that contributions are best discussed first.
Last edited by paramat on Fri Dec 14, 2018 09:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jas
Member
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 18:15
IRC: Freenode
Location: IRC

Re: Please make more games!

by jas » Post

I would like to point out that contributions to MTG are considered very strongly because MTG is a base game, meant to be expanded upon.

Speaking of MTG, I would like to see it use more engine features.

Xudo
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 16:43
GitHub: akryukov92
In-game: Xudo

Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Post

paramat wrote:Xudo,
MTG is here on GitHub https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game
I agree that contributions are best discussed first, you can do this by opening an issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues
There is a difference between "features must be discussed before implementation" and "feature should be implemented when discussion ends".
Some discussions have no definition of "end". For example medkits in CTF.

What about other points I have written in my post?
Is it clear when discussion about some feature is over and ready for development?
Is it clear which arguments in discussion are important for project and which are not?

User avatar
paramat
Developer
Posts: 3700
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat
Location: UK

Re: Please make more games!

by paramat » Post

Xudo, you have a very extensive and precise list of requirements for you to contribute. Some of your requirements make good sense, some make no sense.
MTGame doesn't meet all your requirements and i don't know of any project that does. I think your requirements are excessive and over-demanding.

> I'm sure that there are more people that share same thoughts as me.

I've never known of anyone who has the same requirements.

User avatar
TumeniNodes
Member
Posts: 2941
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 19:49
GitHub: TumeniNodes
IRC: tumeninodes
In-game: TumeniNodes
Location: in the dark recesses of the mind
Contact:

Re: Please make more games!

by TumeniNodes » Post

Wuzzy wrote:
There is a desperate lack of artists in this community.
More or less, yes. I think this is also a political problem, mostly. Many, many artists simply do not share our values of freedom and just insist on their copyrights like everyone else.
It's much easier nowadays to find a programmer for a free software project than to find artists, especially skilled artists.
Maybe this is also simply a “marketing fail” of free software, many people think this only affects programmers (which is of course completely false).

The idea of freedom simply is foreign to most artists. The problem is not that there are not good artists, the problem is to convince them to work with us. =)
I realize the comment was made a while back. I meant to comment on it back then but got distracted then forgot :P

There are actually plenty of artists who, the idea of freedom is not foreign to.

A big part of the problem, regarding artists in the programming world is, they are actually not appreciated as much as some think or even say they are.
Sometimes an artist will contribute work to a project, only to have a programmer hack it to what they feel it needs to be. I have experienced this personally on another project a few years ago, and it really pissed me off.

Programmers tend to want to dictate to artists, and can at times be rather dismissive toward the amount of work an artist puts into a piece, simply because they can achieve something close with code, or even some image editing software using scripts and a few keystrokes.
A programmer would not like an artist telling them how to code or how it should look, so why do programmers not understand that, when they call for an artist, yet want the result to be what they feel it should be?

Programmers often tend to put their own vision before the artist as well, even after asking artists for help.
If you are going to recruit an artist for your project, then allow them to "do" the art, or they will lose interest of possibly get frustrated and stop contributing.
I am a fairly flexible artist but many are not... a flexible artist is a rare find.

Often times, artists are left out of the "Developer" title which can be an insult that many do not understand.

If you need an artist, and take one on... you need to allow them to direct the art, especially when it is a "free-time, volunteer" project.
An artist, just as anyone else, spends much of their time creating art they may not particularly be happy with, to earn money... when they create art outside of that aspect... they need to enjoy what they are doing, or they will go elsewhere.

And note that there is a difference (most often) between an "artist", and a graphic designer..., and often a programmer, makes a horrible graphic designer (whether they like to hear/admit it or not)

As for there not being as many "Libre" artists out in the "free" world... well, remember this..., there are far less jobs out there calling for an "artist", than there are for a programmer, and the pay rate is substantially different.
Being a "starving artist" is not just a phrase ; )
A Wonderful World

Xudo
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 16:43
GitHub: akryukov92
In-game: Xudo

Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Post

paramat wrote:Xudo, you have a very extensive and precise list of requirements for you to contribute. Some of your requirements make good sense, some make no sense.
MTGame doesn't meet all your requirements and i don't know of any project that does. I think your requirements are excessive and over-demanding.
Can you be more specific?
Having design document is not over-demanding requirement.
You know what you want to get in the end, right?
I want to see goals and values of developers community before I will do any work.
paramat wrote:I've never known of anyone who has the same requirements.
People probably won't bother with expressing their thoughts. They just "no, I am not interested".
How much people that do write their requirements do you know?

User avatar
texmex
Member
Posts: 1753
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 21:08
GitHub: tacotexmex
In-game: tacotexmex

Re: Please make more games!

by texmex » Post

Xudo wrote:Having design document is not over-demanding requirement.
You know what you want to get in the end, right?
I want to see goals and values of developers community before I will do any work.
That’s the crux with MTG: No one wants to express a vision for the game, therefore no game design document, hence little to no values nor goals. In fact it’s clearly stated from issue conversations that a plan is not even desirable. Which in itself is not ”wrong”, but it definitely makes it harder to rally certain types of contributors such as artists and designers.
Xude wrote:People probably won't bother with expressing their thoughts. They just "no, I am not interested".
This resonates with my experience as well.

Xudo
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 16:43
GitHub: akryukov92
In-game: Xudo

Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Post

If there is no vision, then it is not a problem. It could be developed just like the game itself by answering a list of questions.
First question is: Can you describe your target audience?
You can develop values and goals by analysing your audience.
Second question is: Why MTG is the only game, bundled with MT by default?
It is very possible, that audience is heterogeneous. Some features might be cool for players of one type of player, but bad for other.

User avatar
MisterE
Member
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 21:06
GitHub: MisterE123
IRC: MisterE
In-game: MisterE

Re: Please make more games!

by MisterE » Post

@ Rubenwardy

I know that it has been decided to only package minetest with MG as a modding base, and not officially package other games, which can be downloaded from the content database of forums.

However, I would like to suggest a compromise.

Have a page on the Minetest website labeled "prepackaged games". It links from the download page of the "normal" minetest. On it, are versions of minetest, prepackaged with games other than vanilla Minetest Game. I seem to remember that licensing issues were a reason for not officially supporting games, so the fix would be that instead of actually hosting the games, the prepackaged game page would have links to builds of minetest with the individual games, hosted by each game developer.

User avatar
rubenwardy
Moderator
Posts: 6972
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 18:11
GitHub: rubenwardy
IRC: rubenwardy
In-game: rubenwardy
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Please make more games!

by rubenwardy » Post

We're heading towards not including any games in Minetest by default, and instead having a list of available games be the first thing you see when downloading minetest. Or perhaps we may keep MTG, but we will have the list as the first thing you see. I think ContentDB is better than having prepackaged versions, but perhaps there's use in having a builder to make installers with certain ContentDB games
Renewed Tab (my browser add-on) | Donate | Mods | Minetest Modding Book

Hello profile reader

User avatar
MisterE
Member
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 21:06
GitHub: MisterE123
IRC: MisterE
In-game: MisterE

Re: Please make more games!

by MisterE » Post

ok, that sounds good! Thx

User avatar
afflatus
Member
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 19:47
GitHub: 0-afflatus
IRC: afflatus
In-game: afflatus
Location: Avalonia
Contact:

Re: Please make more games!

by afflatus » Post

The new content tab is great. I have discovered several interesting games like NodeCore and Hamlet's Quest as well as useful mods.
I have designed a game, took a long break and I've just started on a new one. Neither of them are much more than re-workings of MTG, but I have done considerable work to strip out and split up the monolithic default mod. When I'm a bit further with my new project I might push out a bare-bones framework version on the basis of some earlier comments here.
I have all the skills, apart from blender, but even that is learnable. I don't work well with teams because I'm rubbish at arguing my position and other people rarely like my ideas. I'm not a programmer, just a musician / artist who happens to write code when it is necessary. So yeah, I am my own project leader. Sometimes I argue with myself.
There are limits to what you can do with the Minetest engine / Irrlicht, this is going to be a voxel game whatever, so we're stuck with digging and placing blocks in a cuboid world. If you want originality, then you need to find some breakable rules. I don't think better graphics would make a lot of difference, better physics would be awesome, but there's a limit to how far away from 'minecraft-like' you can go before needing a different game-engine. It's almost impossible to come up with a game concept that hasn't been done.
I'm more than happy just scratching my own itches and making a game that I want to play.
Grailtest is stirring ...

User avatar
afflatus
Member
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 19:47
GitHub: 0-afflatus
IRC: afflatus
In-game: afflatus
Location: Avalonia
Contact:

Re: Please make more games!

by afflatus » Post

So part of the problem is due to the ambiguity of the term 'games'. Mine*(type) environments are not strictly games and the open-endedness somewhat mitigates against conventional game design - you can't play 'Go' on a board with no edges - so most competitive pursuits require in-game arenas and suchlike. Most 'games' are just overgrown mods like mine which have been forced to reinvent the wheel due to the awkwardness of MTG code.

It was the default trees that started it in my case. They look nothing like apple trees for one thing, they just hang in the air when you take the bottom nodes out and don't produce more fruit after spawning. Realism be damned but believability is important, nobody likes floating legless trees.

The other consideration was that I wanted to relocate my original 'game' - Grailtest - in medieval Europe. This shouldn't have been a big deal, but it involved removing potatoes, pumpkins, rails and tnt amongst other things. While it is easier to override stuff than it was when I started, it should be as simple as removing the mod that provides it. MTG just isn't well generalised, so requires major rewriting in order to significantly change the mood / theme. Once you're in that deep you may as well tweak the gameplay too.

In the end development was derailed by Irrlicht lighting bugs that I had great difficulty getting anyone in the engine department to take seriously, constant server crashes; and to a certain extent, the fact that running a server was so time-consuming I didn't have time to code any more.

So I gave up and for the last couple of years or so I've just been a player. I don't want to design a radical new game concept, I just want to be able to create a themed version, albeit this time a non-earth-based fantasy world. This week I have mostly been designing trees, so far so good. Next week I shall move on to writing fruiting code and then look at growth and cultivation of flowers and vegetables. I have not considered the skybox yet or how to represent the world's second moon. And I'm really not looking forward to mobs, I mean, fauna.

I'm inspired by NodeCore's formspec-free approach, but it doesn't suit the kind of rpg / storytelling I'm interested in, so I'm going to have to face the 2D GUI issues at some point. I like the idea of doing as much as possible in-game, but text-rendering possibilities are limited.

So this isn't why I'm not designing a game, this is more about why the game I'm designing probably won't end up on any official list of games. I probably won't finish it, I'll make a playable version. I don't know if I can be bothered to run a server again, so it won't get play-tested.

I think the call-out needs a design spec itself, I think we need to be clear about what constitutes a game mod, a mod game and a stand-alone game, or whatever terms you prefer. Examples of original games, directions that could be explored are also necessary (noting that some have been given in the course of this conversation). I'm at a point where, having already thrown out MTG core, I'm looking at how I might want to do other aspects differently.

What would be a "game-changer" in terms of Minetest?
Grailtest is stirring ...

Astrobe
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:46

Re: Please make more games!

by Astrobe » Post

rubenwardy wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 15:33
We're heading towards not including any games in Minetest by default, and instead having a list of available games be the first thing you see when downloading minetest. Or perhaps we may keep MTG, but we will have the list as the first thing you see. I think ContentDB is better than having prepackaged versions, but perhaps there's use in having a builder to make installers with certain ContentDB games
People are easily lost if they are not explicitly told what to do. You present them a list of games? They won't know what to download. If you make them think, they won't like it. At least in first ten minutes after installing...

Some games are heavy. Don't make them think they'll have to wait three minutes to play. Some games are unmaintained and broken (prepackaged versions solves this one, but then the burden is on you to test and decide which games you include). Don't make them think MT is broken.

This is a free-beer game. People won't have any second thoughts about throwing it away if it doesn't work on first try.

For this reason, you do need something playable out-of-the-box. MTG is better than nothing in this regard, but I think a tutorial like Wuzzy's is a better basis in order to achieve your goals.

User avatar
afflatus
Member
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 19:47
GitHub: 0-afflatus
IRC: afflatus
In-game: afflatus
Location: Avalonia
Contact:

Re: Please make more games!

by afflatus » Post

This is my idea of how to refactor 'default' to make a bare-bones modding base - viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25589
It's really a discussion piece, but I'd be willing to develop it further if anyone finds it useful.
It has a design spec.
Grailtest is stirring ...

User avatar
Emetchi
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 22:39
GitHub: FinnRules
In-game: Emetchi or FinnRules

Re: Please make more games!

by Emetchi » Post

runs wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 23:58
MTG is cool. It's just the base for the games. Although I would like a better API. For example, farming is very limited and not extendable.
I know you posted this like two years ago, but for what it's worth I've been trying to create a more flexible farming API that can either be used alongside farming or replace it, and is game agnostic (you have to write the API calls, but the API itself doesn't depend on anything). It has melons, options for different drops, and hopefully in the future different soils and climates. I also have a mod working that adds fruit trees with re-growable crops and bushes, but that one is not really game agnostic, and only runs using some custom leafdecay calls in a game I'm working on.
Hey, a signature, how quaint.

Painadath
New member
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 15:57

Re: Please make more games!

by Painadath » Post

I Am Fine with MineClone2 from Wuzzy
Try it feel it

Astrobe
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:46

Re: Please make more games!

by Astrobe » Post

Not a game, but there are various "dev-oriented" mods around that could be put together in order to make something like a " Minetest IDE" - or maybe it would just be a modpack. You take MTG, add the IDE, create or edit with it recipes, textures, nodeboxes, blocks, schematics, edit the properties of mobs... And then you remove the IDE-modpack and play the game.

Tim790
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 23:32
GitHub: Tim79000
In-game: Tim7
Location: Land of the Midnight Sun

Re: Please make more games!

by Tim790 » Post

Games which stray from the classic Minecraft ripoff? Blasphemy!
Yeet.

Exhale
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:40
In-game: Exhale

Re: Please make more games!

by Exhale » Post

I am an artist, and I can tell you what would help me make games / mods...
If there was a way to visually do it with 0 coding inside minetest... so maybe a mod that I can change into a new mod of my own creation by flying around the world and pointing at nodes, applying textures with clear and basic rules I can put in within the game, force it to generate a new world with those rules without leaving the minetest launcher.
(sorry if the terms arent logical or correct to you, I dont know them)
I had a look at the making mods thing and it was way too complicated for my artistic mind... I want to be able to just load the music and textures I make into minetest apply the rules for them and bob's your uncle... with a system like this, it would be great if I could also make the mobs in game, like build them out of blocks/nodes nice and big and then tell it what size to shrink it to, where to add the skeleton and animation, sounds etc...
Yeah something like this would be a big project, but I think something like this would help artistic minds like me churn out content without needing to bother you big brain boys in the programming world with anything other than the most exciting challenges.
It is just a thought. basically a programming for dummies like me method that doesnt actually show me the code... as soon as I see code my brain switches off... but yeah even something like this, when I talk about 'rules' would have to include some code...
But I am a graphic designer, and if you explain the basic needs for a way to turn the language into something graphical, maybe we can come up with a simple system... I have used mcreator in the past for example, and that is pretty much exactly the kinda thing I think we need, but in game... and even that has an, as easy as can be expected, system of coding in it for things that arent normal to change - like for idk if you want fireworks to set player on fire or something, idk I never used that part...

User avatar
MisterE
Member
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 21:06
GitHub: MisterE123
IRC: MisterE
In-game: MisterE

Re: Please make more games!

by MisterE » Post

Exhale wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 17:35
I am an artist, and I can tell you what would help me make games / mods...
If there was a way to visually do it with 0 coding inside minetest... so maybe a mod that I can change into a new mod of my own creation by flying around the world and pointing at nodes, applying textures with clear and basic rules I can put in within the game, force it to generate a new world with those rules without leaving the minetest launcher.
(sorry if the terms arent logical or correct to you, I dont know them)
I had a look at the making mods thing and it was way too complicated for my artistic mind... I want to be able to just load the music and textures I make into minetest apply the rules for them and bob's your uncle... with a system like this, it would be great if I could also make the mobs in game, like build them out of blocks/nodes nice and big and then tell it what size to shrink it to, where to add the skeleton and animation, sounds etc...
Yeah something like this would be a big project, but I think something like this would help artistic minds like me churn out content without needing to bother you big brain boys in the programming world with anything other than the most exciting challenges.
It is just a thought. basically a programming for dummies like me method that doesnt actually show me the code... as soon as I see code my brain switches off... but yeah even something like this, when I talk about 'rules' would have to include some code...
But I am a graphic designer, and if you explain the basic needs for a way to turn the language into something graphical, maybe we can come up with a simple system... I have used mcreator in the past for example, and that is pretty much exactly the kinda thing I think we need, but in game... and even that has an, as easy as can be expected, system of coding in it for things that arent normal to change - like for idk if you want fireworks to set player on fire or something, idk I never used that part...
eh, plenty of artists learn a little lua to make things with minetest. lua is not a complicated language... there is a reason it is the language of choice for embedded modding systems: its easy for non-programmers to pick up

User avatar
runs
Member
Posts: 3225
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 08:32

Re: Please make more games!

by runs » Post

Exhale wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 17:35
I am an artist, and I can tell you what would help me make games / mods...
If there was a way to visually do it with 0 coding inside minetest... so maybe a mod that I can change into a new mod of my own creation by flying around the world and pointing at nodes, applying textures with clear and basic rules I can put in within the game, force it to generate a new world with those rules without leaving the minetest launcher.
(sorry if the terms arent logical or correct to you, I dont know them)
I had a look at the making mods thing and it was way too complicated for my artistic mind... I want to be able to just load the music and textures I make into minetest apply the rules for them and bob's your uncle... with a system like this, it would be great if I could also make the mobs in game, like build them out of blocks/nodes nice and big and then tell it what size to shrink it to, where to add the skeleton and animation, sounds etc...
Yeah something like this would be a big project, but I think something like this would help artistic minds like me churn out content without needing to bother you big brain boys in the programming world with anything other than the most exciting challenges.
It is just a thought. basically a programming for dummies like me method that doesnt actually show me the code... as soon as I see code my brain switches off... but yeah even something like this, when I talk about 'rules' would have to include some code...
But I am a graphic designer, and if you explain the basic needs for a way to turn the language into something graphical, maybe we can come up with a simple system... I have used mcreator in the past for example, and that is pretty much exactly the kinda thing I think we need, but in game... and even that has an, as easy as can be expected, system of coding in it for things that arent normal to change - like for idk if you want fireworks to set player on fire or something, idk I never used that part...
Please, your portfolio¿

Maybe you can be occupied in the Main Menu Design. It is parked for years.

Promote you in github to do it.

Exhale
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:40
In-game: Exhale

Re: Please make more games!

by Exhale » Post

"Please, your portfolio¿"
I admit I havent had a portfolio online for years I am 39 years old and I have nothing to prove to anyone, but my qualifications are that I am a B-tech graphic designer, with a cum laude in illustration. I used to make webpages in html when they were mostly html, and worked with a bunch of programmers who did the back end for a few years, then left that for printing after a while. My specialities are logos and I am very good at whole corporate identities... I will see if I can find my old portfolio, but simply I have lived a life in the industry and have even taught art and music (the most rewarding things I have done to be honest) to kids on a farm school.
If you have something you would like me to do I will see what I can do - I admit minetest is pretty plain, but it has an oldschool charm I have been enjoying. If you want a logo for it or some other elements just hit me up, I would happily contribute when i have time.

Exhale
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:40
In-game: Exhale

Re: Please make more games!

by Exhale » Post

"its easy for non-programmers to pick up"
The only coding I ever learned was html, I used to code it directly in notepad, but then that became redundant. Let's just say I have been bitten by the ever changing world of coding and I am cautious around that rabid dog. You learn one kind of coding and then they expect you to learn more and more and more and then as an artist I ran away to do art. I will look into lua again I am sure... but I admit I have a phobia for code - yes that means I admit it is probably an irrational fear... but I have tried to overcome it many times, attempting to dip my feet into code like c++ since the software I use to make music (open modplug tracker) is made in that language I would love to learn it, but every time I start looking at online tutorials my brain shuts down and I die a little more inside.
I did look into the lua coding things you have here, but then it directed me to many other webpages with other code to learn and I started having coding flashbacks.
If there is something simple for absolute idiots like me to learn from online that explains everything in simple language and doesnt expect me to do a single other tutorial before I do it then I will be willing to look into it... but some people like me are simply not built to code or have an aversion to walls of text between us and the results.
If it can be done in a way that is visual like it is done on mcreator or games factory (old software that I used back in the day to make a few little games) then I have an approachable and less panic inducing angle to approach it.
But I guess if you could direct me to a good tutorial that walks me through it holding my hand I could give it a try... but I truly think something that doesnt just hold my hand but completely protects people from the code layer and lets them simply create with reasonable limitations within the game would be the best. If people without any coding knowledge can create - even flawed (code wise) and limited mods and games that a programmer can then go into and fix up then you will have an influx of mods and games, more than you can handle.
It is about the learning curve. It is the reason I still havent touched gnu/linux since I left it behind years ago - the unending reliance on the the archaic terminal, and linux programmers aversion to completely making the terminal redundant. As far as I am concerned if I ever move to gnu/linux and even once have to go into the terminal to get a game or software working then it has failed as an operating system entirely. yes windows has the command prompt, and I never use it even though I used to use dos and can navigate around with it, I shouldnt have to, and I dont have to on windows.

Exhale
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:40
In-game: Exhale

Re: Please make more games!

by Exhale » Post

When it comes to improvements to how things are done with minetest, I do want to applaud you guys for taking some of the vital settings like resolution out of the 'advanced settings' and putting them into the settings place. I see that will be happening in the next update and I can guarantee that is an important move. I personally was perplexed to see that the resolution was in the advanced settings when I first started messing with the game... I would suggest you make a dropdown list of common resolutions and an other option for putting in the uncommon ones I am sure people use sometimes.
Although I did notice that every time I change the res in the game they change back to my monitor's default res and so I gave up on that and just changed the undersampling to 2 since this laptop actually doesnt have a real gpu.
The more of those kinds of actually basic settings with drop downs, scroll bars, and tool tips available in the menu the better. So keep up the good work :D

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest