"Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

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"Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by rubenwardy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 16:12

Some of the content on ContentDB is not appropriate for children in many territories, such as this drugs mod: https://content.minetest.net/packages/L ... drug_wars/

It's also feasible that people may want to add horror mods or mods with excessive violence and gore.

I'd like to allow people to be able to choose to hide content like this, so that children aren't exposed to it. If I'm unable to find out how to do this legally, then I'll probably have to remove all such content

It's also worth noting that the requirements for PEGI 3, or whatever the rating is, is quite strict - only cartoon violence. Shooter would be immediately disqualified by this

I also posted this question on Mastodon: https://fosstodon.org/@rubenwardy/101500701045066868
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by rubenwardy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 16:29

The conclusion from Mastodon is that I can make my own "rating labels" as long as I make sure I don't cause confusion with existing certification methods

I think I'll do the following:

  • Violence
  • Gore / Blood / etc
  • Swearing
  • Nudity *
  • Drugs *

Sexual content won't be allowed.

Things marked by * will be opt-in and not shown by default
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by ShadMOrdre » Tue Jan 29, 2019 17:02

rubenwardy,

Please take a look at http://www.esrb.org. This is the video game rating agency here in the US. Along with the EU standards, you should be able to define a fairly strict, yet flexible, ratings system.

IMHO, if you apply due diligence in setting this up, you should be able to avoid any undue attention.

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Astrobe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 17:46

Maybe create a "mature" tag and show items with this tag only to registered users (I see a "sign in" link)?

What is acceptable for children can be a grey area and the interpretations subjective. So I think that in the end, rating will be a co-decision of the ContentDB owner and of the mod author.

Also I think that end-users will probably make binary decisions (any of Violence/Gore/Nudity/Drugs is probably a no-go for parents of young children), so your classification system is perhaps too fine-grained for what's really needed.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 23:31

Sigh. Here we go again. OK, seriously. Do you REALLY have to do this? I mean, can't this be avoided? Is there really no alternative? Why even bother?

I'm a very freedom-minded person. If you start to pre-censor things based on bogus moral content criteria, Minetest will just become another locked-down hellhole. I do not want to be a part of locked-down hellholes.

Sexual content won't be allowed.

Why? Is it because you're required to do so by law?

Here is my own stance on inappropriate content: Stuff is inappropriate if it would directly harm or threaten real people (hate speech, doxxing) or is a blatant attack on the system itself. My point is, there must be a very strong justification to justify a pre-censorship, merely “controversial” content should not be a reason. And no, a vague pseudo-threat like “but our kids will be spoiled”, does not count. If your kids play Minetest, they're already spoiled! :D

I would mayhaps support a simple NSFW tag, but that's it. You really seem to overcomplicate this thing. I mean, Jesus Christ, are you seriously trying to re-invent PEGI? You're getting way ahead of yourself.

Anyway, it should be up to users to decide what to do with NSFW content. USERS, and nobody else, should have the final say about if they want to filter out NSFW content (for themselves) or not. But if the dev team pre-censors content based on bogus moral content criteria, you are taking away this choice. Also, children are only a part of Minetest's userbase. There are many adults, too. If Minetest is forcibly made “family-friendly”, you are basically saying “fuck you” to the entire adult userbase.

I strongly believe that Minetest should be neutral, in terms of content. It's just an engine, after all.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by paramat » Wed Jan 30, 2019 00:15

> I'd like to allow people to be able to choose to hide content like this

Of course, the user can just choose to see it all whatever their age, and it will be far too complex to set up an age verification system for players.
I can't see any alternative to removing all 'mature' content if we want to keep the PEGI 3 rating. And we very much want to keep that low rating because most app users will be young teenagers or children.

If we lose the PEGI 3 rating this will severely harm the reach of the MT app, right at the time where it is essential to move as many players to it as possible, because MultiCraft development has stopped, because our app has been much improved, and because servers are fed up with players using bad forked apps that are hacked and have pay-for-privilege. All this is far more important than allowing mature content on the CDB.

The only choice seems to be, for now (5.0.0), remove all mature content from the CDB (possibly WTFPL licenses too) and think further on this after release.
I have never assumed all content would be on CDB, there's no need or expectation to have mature content on there, which is only a small minority of mods anyway. Mature content can be accessed on the forum.

I think this issue is a blocker for 5.0.0 and should be opened at GitHub.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by paramat » Wed Jan 30, 2019 00:28

Rubenwardy, would adding your own rating system (not legally age-verified) allow mature content without raising the rating? Somehow i doubt it, as players would set the filters as they desire.

Wuzzy, your theoretical idealism is irrelevant here. We have to be practical and consider what might raise the app rating and the effect that would have on the reach of the app, this should be obvious to you.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by sofar » Wed Jan 30, 2019 03:13

I don't think ESRB is reasonable, because it is a mixed bag of "this qualifies as /category/, and /category/ level /number/ falls in rating /rating/". You're likely better off choosing self-classifying based on category than on age level. The /ratings/ are subjective, but the /category/ often isn't. So just start with categories and avoid labeling something as "appropriate" or not, because even scientists can't agree on that (and I don't mean the alternative type). Just bin stuff as 'blood/gore', 'alcohol/drugs' etc..

I don't see anything wrong with self-classification of content. It isn't the same as censorship, no matter how hard Wuzzy complains. It helps parents, schools, kids, make their own choices. If we give them simple and understandable means to do this, it will help everyone.

I would suggest by starting that content that falls in the listed categories must be at least identified as such. Having the label missing from content should be the first priority.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by TumeniNodes » Wed Jan 30, 2019 03:43

Wuzzy wrote: Stuff is inappropriate if it would directly harm or threaten real people (hate speech, doxxing)


There is no such thing as "hate speech" (at least not in the U.S. which is acknowledged, legally.)

The reason for this sort of filtering, is to do the best to not expose minor children to certain content, unnecessarily.
And that is a moral obligation in society.

Just because children will eventually learn about and be exposed to certain unpleasant things as they grow, it does not excuse one for exposing them to it either by negligence or whatever...
If that is the frame of mind, one might as well shoot, stab or rape their children... "because they're going to be or may be exposed to those things as they grow, so I don't want them to go into shock when they do" (that is a truly mental frame of thought)

So, the moral and correct frame of mind concerning children (at least in normal people) is to yes, protect the children, and allow them to be children.
Adulthood and life come quick enough.

I do agree that the user should be able to tick filter options, and if need be later.. possibly set up a parental control system (but only if the nsfw stuff gets to the point it is required) which I honestly do not even see happening.
Or, someone could even whip up a parental control mod at some point (which would be favorable over a built in PCS)

edit: no matter how a filter system is worked in, of course kids will work around it easily so, that may be something to think on as well.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 08:36

First of all, you are delusional if you believe you have ANY chance for PEGI 3.
I mean, seriously?! PEGI 3 is baby level. Pretty much all games, including Minetest Game, would not make it to PEGI 3. Cartoon violence. Swords. PvP. “Scary” monsters. Mob slaughter. Many games have these. :D For reference, Minecraft is PEGI 7. If you want PEGI 3 so badly, you should be prepared to make serious sacrifices. This is not going to happen. Seriously, get real and kiss good-bye to PEGI 3 and move on.
Also, this raises the question of how to treat battle-centric games. Capture the Flag is pretty popular. Would that quality for PEGI 12 (“the game has to contain slightly graphic violence or non-graphic violence towards human-looking characters.”)?
I start to think this whole “get the lowest PEGI” thing is a mission that is doomed to fail.

Anyway. If all you want to do is to add a completely OPTIONAL and OBJECTIVE labelling of things, I don't mind. Like, “this contains blood/gore” (although I still think you are trying to capture too many details). But don't force it upon people, thank you very much.

As long the final choice is left to the user, I am much happier.

Wuzzy, your theoretical idealism is irrelevant here. We have to be practical and consider what might raise the app rating and the effect that would have on the reach of the app, this should be obvious to you.

No, it is not irrelevant. I'm worried you're about to do something incredibly stupid by crippling the Content DB to get some magical content rating that will magically boost popularity. I mean, it's nice to have popularity, but it's not a good idea to sacrifice quality for popularity. If you remove content to meet “moral standards”, then there is less content to find, and less reason why Minetest should be popular. Do you see the problem now? :D

Also, if many games get banned from Content DB for, well, their content, what's the point of having a Content DB in the first place? Was all the hard work for nothing? And don't tell me “we have the forums for that”, that's just cynical and a slap in the face of all hard-working content creators. Did you not think of the content creators, who WILL get frustrated when you tell them “sorry, we cannot have that on our Content DB because we want to be PEGI 3”? It will be like a punishment to them.

Also, why do you talk about “the app”? The Android build is not everything, it's not even that great yet. There are other methods to advertise Minetest, by the way. You're thinking inside the box. It's not the end of the world if the content rating of Minetest changes. Something which seems unavoidable anyway.

Minetest isn't in any danger of death right now, no matter what PEGI or ESRB or whoever says. It's a very bad idea to deliberately cripple your own game in order to get a better content rating. This is also a form of censorship. Self-censorship. Many game studios have fallen into this trap, and the results have often been hilarious (in a sad way).

I don't think ESRB is reasonable, because it is a mixed bag of "this qualifies as /category/, and /category/ level /number/ falls in rating /rating/". You're likely better off choosing self-classifying based on category than on age level. The /ratings/ are subjective, but the /category/ often isn't. So just start with categories and avoid labeling something as "appropriate" or not, because even scientists can't agree on that (and I don't mean the alternative type). Just bin stuff as 'blood/gore', 'alcohol/drugs' etc..

+100000000000000000
'nuff said.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jan 30, 2019 09:53

Wuzzy wrote:Anyway. If all you want to do is to add a completely OPTIONAL and OBJECTIVE labelling of things, I don't mind. Like, “this contains blood/gore” (although I still think you are trying to capture too many details). But don't force it upon people, thank you very much.

100 percent THIS. Just implement a tagging functionality allowing authors to tag their content (like "blood", "language", "guns", etc. - just add a good set of tags to chose from) and have an option for users to filter out content by tags.

Wuzzy wrote:Did you not think of the content creators, who WILL get frustrated when you tell them “sorry, we cannot have that on our Content DB because we want to be PEGI 3”? It will be like a punishment to them.

Since the CDB will be the number one source for installing games, mods, and texture packs (because of the integration into the client) by "normal users" censoring content on the CDB for whatever reason will 100 percent affect the Minetest community as a whole.

Wuzzy wrote:It's a very bad idea to deliberately cripple your own game in order to get a better content rating.

Quoted for emphasis and agreement.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by ShadMOrdre » Wed Jan 30, 2019 16:38

Wuzzy,

Freedom without knowledge is not freedom. Freedom can only come from making informed decisions. A rating system is not censorship, but merely a way to inform users of the content. This is not a bad thing.

You are one to talk about censorship, since you are the one who very vocally advocated for the censorship of all non FOSS content from the CDB in the first place. One has to wonder what your true motivation is, in denying users access to any content that is not FOSS, while condemning any ratings of content that might be inappropriate to any user, much less children.

As an adult, I like making informed decisions. As a parent, I like making informed decisions. As an IT professional with well over 30 years experience, I prefer to have an educated, informed user base, making decisions that make my job easier. As a modder, and thus content provider, I have NO objections to labeling my content.

A recent example of why this is a good thing, is when I introduced Minetest and Minecraft to a christian neighbor. I underestimated my neighbors sensitivities in regards violence, even cartoon violence.

Linuxdirk,

Many (most) times, your tone takes on an air of superiority. You either command someone to do something, you troll others for expressing their opinions, or you act as if you are THE source of info on all things minetest. Just stop. Learn some civility, learn how to speak in a professional manner, where the condemnations, the commands, the crude comments, and the crassness are replaced with something that will more than foster cooperation, collaboration, and creativity. I am not usually one to call someone out, but I've yet to come across a post from you that doesn't fit the above callout.

To eveyone else,

A ratings system for content is not a bad thing. On ANY level. Self-rating is far better that having someone else rate your product for you, and you not liking their rating.

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 17:25

Sigh. AGAIN. I am NOT against the optional labelling, as long it makes sense and is objective (i.e. a 3rd party should normally come to the same conclusion). Please read more carefully next time. :-(

As for FOSS: Different story. It's simple: If we let people have the “freedom” to deny the freedom of others (which is implied by proprietary licensing), there will be less freedom for all. Therefore, people should not have this “freedom”. I'm freedom-minded, but I am not a fool.
Also, this is because we're a FOSS community and we shouldn't reward proprietary software developers. If we give proprietary software the same exposure as free software, we basically treat those as “equally valid” and might motivate developers to release even more proprietary software (because the community is apparently OK with it). Is it really the goal to open the floodgates for proprietary mods and other things?
I really don't understand why in the Minetest forums there seem to be people defending proprietary software. Proprietary software only benefits its owner. Why are you worried about this? Do you plan to release a proprietary mod yourself?
Basically, the rationale here is the same reason why Minetest itself does not accept any proprietary submissions. It seems inconsistent to not stick to this principle when it comes to the Content DB, which will be a freaking crucial part of Minetest!
I wish we would not live in a copyrighted world so this problem wouldn't arise in the first place, but that's the world we live in now. Anyway, this has been and continues to be discussed at length here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20193

For comparison:
For censorship based on content, it can only be avoided by changing the content. This is work and the quality will suffer as a result. It's a freedom-of-expression thing.
This is not the case when it comes to licensing and the source code. The quality does not suffer when you need to change the license and release the source code. It's a political thing. Besides, only a tiny minority of modders actually resorts to non-free licensing/code. Everyone else is making their stuff free already. Thanks to all the modders and creators for that, btw! :-)
Last edited by Wuzzy on Wed Jan 30, 2019 17:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Hume2 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 17:28

I think, the tags have much wider usage than making you not to see some "inappropriate" content. They can be also used for faster searching in the content DB. For example, if you are looking for a mod than enhances mining, you can filter all mods those have the tag "mining". Or you're looking for some new means of transport, so you can use similar filter. And if you want to hide all bloody mods, you can filter them out.

Each tag in the client could be in one of three states:
  • unimprotant: default for all tags
  • forbidden: Any mod containing this tag won't be displayed.
  • enforced: If no tag is enforced, it takes no effect. Else only mods with all enforced tags will display. If a mod has both enforced and forbidden tags, it won't display.
And it must be up to each user which tags will be unimportant/forbidden/enforced. It could work also slightly differently, I think, you get the point.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 17:34

Hume2, I am a bit confused by your “tag states”, and I believe Average Joe will be even more. How to do this properly in the UI without bloating it? I doubt it will work that way, for usability reasons. Maybe I'm too dumb.
For example, what's the point of “enforced”? The other names are also confusing.

Why not just a simple “hide this tag”/“don't hide this tag”?

I think the biggest problem in this thread is that you all try to overcomplicate a simple problem. :-( I like simple solutions.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by ShadMOrdre » Wed Jan 30, 2019 17:59

Wuzzy,

Please think this through, to the nth degree....

If we let people have the “freedom” to deny the freedom of others (which is implied by proprietary licensing), there will be less freedom for all. Therefore, people should not have this “freedom”.


Freedom belongs to each of us. Your statements are in direct opposition to the point you appear to be trying to make.

My freedom to use proprietary software, FOSS software, open source software, closed source software, top secret software, public domain software or ANY software, is not your freedom of choice to make, any more than I can decide for you, in the complete opposite. Think this through. Whose freedom are you protecting?

As a developer, it is my right to license my work in such a way as to protect myself, my work, and it's proliferation in the world. Would you deny me my freedom to make a living? Understand, I am no fan of corporate policies that try to make money of my usage of software by forcing me to pay for features that have already been coded. This is very specific. In this knowledge economy, knowledge is both time and money.

Freedom is about choices. Limiting my choices on ANY level thus restricts my freedom. Providing me with information increases my choices, and thus my freedom. EVERYthing else is divisible by zero.

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jan 30, 2019 18:00

ShadMOrdre wrote:Many (most) times, your tone takes on an air of superiority. You either command someone to do something, you troll others for expressing their opinions, ...

Sorry, absolutely not meant to. I just have a very imperative writing style due to always using the imperative form during my day job and my hobby "job". Imperative is simply the most clear and direct form of expressing something.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Astrobe » Wed Jan 30, 2019 18:18

FWIW I'm fine if not hosting questionable content, like Paramat advises as a temporary measure, eventually becomes ContentDB's policy.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 18:54

@ShadMOrdre: My reply went here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20193&p=342120#p342120
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by paramat » Wed Jan 30, 2019 19:11

Ok i see MC and some MT forks are PEGI 7, so i'm no longer suggesting we have to keep PEGI 3, just avoiding a rating high enough to harm the reach of the app right at a critical time for moving players to the official app.

EDIT: Deleted my pointless bickering =) Sorry for that.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Wuzzy » Wed Jan 30, 2019 20:10

I think some things need to be clarified first …

So: Are you trying to remove / refuse to host specific content from the Content DB entirely? I mean, will it be banned from the Content DB completely or just hidden?

Or is it only about labelling? If it's only about labelling, all is fine, and you and ignore the rest of this post. XD

And isn't this whole “issue” mostly just an Android thing? If yes, it doesn't seem fair if content is being banned from the entire Content DB only because of the Android app. I feel this topic should be addressed in Android, and in Android only.
There will be 3 places that the Content DB will be visible:
1) In the browser
2) In Android
3) In the PC version

As far I understood, PEGI has only relevance in Android. And even there ONLY if you use the Google Play. It's irrelevant for the website and the PC version. So if content is “punished” for violating PEGI 7 (or whatever), it will be removed from all 3 versions, even if it's only relevant on Android+Google Play? Hopefully not!
So, please leave the browser and PC version of the Content DB alone, and only deal with this PEGI crap where you absolutely have to (like Android, I guess).

Also, PEGI 7 still seems pretty restrictive. Are you sure only a minority will be affected? Do you have a list of possibly “ban-worthy” content? I think this question is important to answer. It would be better to know what exactly you are willing to sacrifice for that shiny PEGI 7 label.

Besides who decides what will be “appropriate” and where will you draw the line?

No, to be practical and avoid a rating high enough to mostly destroy the reach of the app. Nothing to do with 'morals'.

PEGI is partially based on moral values. Also, not everyone is taking PEGI seriously.

A little less content doesn't reduce quality, only quantity.

As if a banned game, in which people have put in hundreds of work hours into, is not a big loss …
Also, we still don't know yet how many things would be in danger. I'm not so sure yet if it would only be a tiny minority, since we're still talking PEGI 7.
I also think it's a fallacy to think that it's not a big deal if only a few things will get banned. Banning a few high-quality things would be equally sad.

So the forums that we have had up to now are no good for sharing content? We're not losing anything here, only gaining.

I didn't say that … But Content DB is infinitely more convenient to use. I don't want to be punished as content creator because I violated PEGI 7. As a content creator, it will be of critical importance to get your content on the Content DB if you want to be seen my the masses. It would be a great frustration to see your submission rejected because of PEGI 7.

I've explained why it is so important to move players to the official app, server owners are fed up with bad clients. Yes it has greatly improved and is better than any fork now.

It's good to hear. :)

This has nothing to do with advertising MT. If a player cannot access the playstore app due to it's rating they cannot get around that.

Lol, that's complete nonsense. Of course you can get around that. I don't know how Google Play works, but is it really THAT locked down? I mean, first your Google Play has to know your age. Guess what? People can lie about their age.

> we're a FOSS community and we shouldn't reward proprietary software developers

MT is FOSS but it isn't militant FOSS extremist, celeron55 isn't and none of the core devs are.

Refusal to host and give easy and convenient access to proprietary software isn't militant … Besides, Content DB is already refusing the majority of proprietary software. Its only exception it still allows are NC clauses, I believe, and even this exception might be removed in future.

This is a naive idealistic extremist desire. Without copyright a vast number of people wouldn't be able to earn money from their work, so that work wouldn't be done. Business and the economy would partially collapse and society would become a far worse place even in the opinions of the extremists.

Oh noes! The end times are nigh! Talk about being hysteric … You do know there are other ways to make a living that don't depend on copyright, right? Be a little creative. Also, you almost sound like as if extremism would be a bad thing. Anyway, this is getting too off-topic (sorry).

Btw, I wrote more in the GitHub issue.
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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by sofar » Wed Jan 30, 2019 21:52

Wuzzy wrote:And isn't this whole “issue” mostly just an Android thing? If yes, it doesn't seem fair if content is being banned from the entire Content DB only because of the Android app. I feel this topic should be addressed in Android, and in Android only.
There will be 3 places that the Content DB will be visible:
1) In the browser
2) In Android
3) In the PC version


I don't see why we couldn't make each build determine the `pegi level` of displayed content. The official android build could default to hiding categories X and Y, while the PC version only hides content marked Y. The sideloaded version APK on minetest.net could have yet another different default level of exclusions set. Note: I do feel that the client itself should be able to enable/disable viewing all the categories irregardless.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jan 30, 2019 22:31

sofar wrote:I don't see why we couldn't make each build determine the `pegi level` of displayed content.

How does this work in reality? Do we simply guess what the PEGI would rate our content or are there official standardized criteria to classify content in a reliable way to make it officially PEGI compliant? Afaik content creators have to sign the official PEGI codex in order to be allowed to use their rating system.

sofar wrote:I do feel that the client itself should be able to enable/disable viewing all the categories irregardless.

Yes, all power to the users.
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by Jordach » Wed Jan 30, 2019 23:22

Solution that takes no time at all for PEGI and or ESRB:

Online [Multiplayer] Content not rated by PEGI/ESRB.

See: https://pegi.info/page/online-safety-tips

PEGI wrote:User-generated content created in the game which could be unsuitable for young people and a mismatch with the age rating given for the game.

Some players engaging in behaviour that might not be suitable for young people. For example, inappropriate or offensive language; bullying in games that allow text, voice or video communication; unsporting conduct like cheating and tampering; or aggressiveness towards others.


Re paramat: PEGI 3 is a pipe dream that can never be actually targeted, see: https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean

PEGI wrote:The game contains depictions of violence. In games rated PEGI 7 this can only be non-realistic or non-detailed violence. Games rated PEGI 12 can include violence in a fantasy environmentor non-realistic violence towards human-like characters, whereas games rated PEGI 16 or 18 have increasingly more realistic-looking violence.


tl;dr Allow all the content ratings, but make the more mature descriptors visible to players who would enable a hypothetical 12+ flag in the .conf. Pixiv does something similar, anything that's safe for work and under 12 is freely viewable, but anything more than that requires an account with the appropriate flag checked.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19056 Solar Plains Dev Server
 

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Re: "Inappropriate" content on ContentDB

by sofar » Thu Jan 31, 2019 01:50

Linuxdirk wrote:
sofar wrote:I don't see why we couldn't make each build determine the `pegi level` of displayed content.

How does this work in reality?


actually, I didn't mean to write `pegi` here but instead should have used `classification` or something like that. (goes back to my point that I don't think we should `rate` but only `classify`).

e.g. clients can choose to see `blood/gore` in the android build, but it's shown by default in the PC build.
 

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