Truly infinite worlds (poll)

Would you like to have truly infinite worlds in Minetest?

Yes
34
44%
No
24
31%
That depends/difficult to say
20
26%
 
Total votes : 78

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voxelproof
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Thu Sep 27, 2018 15:13

I've realized recently that this thread better qualifies for "Minetest-related projects" than "Feature discussion" for I'm pretty sure that this sort of enlargement of MT worlds will never happen in official development course and, well, I'll be happy enough if I see the 5.0 version released at all. Maybe this is due to the autumn blues, but I have a strange feeling that MT is just a shadow of MC and is set to be like that :)

That said, I return to the Eden world. I've found the second super-tall mountain of remarkable beauty, Mount Neverest and because I have a presentiment of the third huge massif existing within this realm, which if found will be named, of course, Mount Minetest, the search will probably take some time. I'll let you know what I have determined in that matter. So long, guys :)
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Wed Oct 03, 2018 13:53

Hi, guys, I'm back alive. Mount Minetest found! 8D
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by cy » Thu Dec 27, 2018 04:51

I'd like to point out that with the current way of storing coordinates, if all you stored was the coordinates and 16 bit node type (no entities, no metadata) and you filled an entire map of -32000 to 32000 in all three axes, that would add up to 2,097 terabytes of data.
Code: Select all
(2^16)^3 * (2+2*3)
It takes a long time to sift through 2 petabytes, no matter what algorithm you use. With 32 bit coordinates (-2.1 billion, to 2.1 billion) the largest size of your map file would be around one million yottabytes.

Most worlds fit inside -2000,2000 each way, and even then they're really spread out on the edges. Try running to the end of the map sometime. Heck, try flying noclip to the bottom of the map sometime. 32,000 blocks is a long way.

Only think I've ever considered is sacrificing 1 byte of depth to add a nibble each to the map's width and breadth, like minecraft does. That way maximum depth would be -256, and maximum width/breadth would be 1 million. And that's not so much for the benefit of being able to travel a million blocks west, but because falling for 32,000 blocks is utterly terrifying!
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Thu Dec 27, 2018 20:26

cy wrote:I'd like to point out that with the current way of storing coordinates, if all you stored was the coordinates and 16 bit node type (no entities, no metadata) and you filled an entire map of -32000 to 32000 in all three axes, that would add up to 2,097 terabytes of data.
Code: Select all
(2^16)^3 * (2+2*3)
It takes a long time to sift through 2 petabytes, no matter what algorithm you use.


As far as data needed for making a map of the world's surface is concerned, this amount would be probably confined to less than 30 GB (I've checked this covering almost whole Eden world - the map.sqlite is 13 GB, made by flying along y meridians every 2000 nodes with viewing range 600).
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Exilyth » Sat May 11, 2019 10:34

[x] depends/difficult to say

Allowing users to set the map size for new worlds would be nice to have and would benefit all kinds of people: older hardware could run smaller maps and hightech research clusters could use their petaflops to simulate the whole globe.

The option for using a large datatype for larger coordinates (and thus larger worlds) would be nice too.

An option for toroidal maps (e.g. reaching the world edge just wraps to the opposite edge) would be great to. This would give the illusion of a spherical planet without requiring more memory/data. Mapgen would need to be able to work over map edges though to prevent dscontinuities in the noise when jumping from -mapsize to +mapsize.
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Walker » Sat May 11, 2019 12:20

i have create a sector based map saving algorism ... but it gone because of Forum-Crash
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Walker » Sun May 12, 2019 05:14

THANKHS GOD

sorcerykid have recovered my thread ^^

you can see it here > https://sorcerykid.github.io/minetest-f ... _22571.htm

but i will take it too this forum again ^^
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Wed May 15, 2019 02:21

Exilyth wrote:[x] depends/difficult to say


Yeah, I wholly agree and the larger size of the worlds are desirable only if the mapgen generates sufficiently complex and diverse landscapes. There's no point of pursuing huge worlds when the overall impression of the terrain features remains largely the same over the whole map. However if such interesting mapgens are implemented, it would give the exploration a wholly new dimension and meaning, making it a basis for a new kind of gameplay, so it's imo worth considering if only such techical possibilities exist.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Sat May 18, 2019 15:38

paramat wrote:'Truly infinite' is also impossible =)


That depends on what we mean by 'truly'. It is theoretically possible to create a non-procedural terrain generator in which each world would be unique and not related to a given seed, based on pure randomness. Then the only constraint would be the capacity of the hard drive on which the map is stored.
Last edited by voxelproof on Tue May 21, 2019 08:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by ShadMOrdre » Mon May 20, 2019 16:07

In this case, IMHO, "truly infinite" does not mean something that a computer can generate. That, I would agree, is not possible.

However, "truly infinite" can simply mean "without limit". In this sense, a computer does not need to generate infinity data, it simply needs not limit the amount of data that CAN be generated. Rather than rely on a 16 bit value, that essentially limits everything, the code could use a much larger larger value, and either use a portion of the larger type to downsize to the 16bit value, or better yet, use multiple 16bit values that can be stacked in a meaningful way.

Walker, in the other thread, posts code examples of how something could possibly work.

The Opensimulator project, referenced in my sig, did something very similar. In that software, the same limits apply. The work around was very similar to what Walker has suggested, and in the Opensim project, it was realized.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:21

Exilyth wrote:An option for toroidal maps (e.g. reaching the world edge just wraps to the opposite edge) would be great to. This would give the illusion of a spherical planet without requiring more memory/data. Mapgen would need to be able to work over map edges though to prevent dscontinuities in the noise when jumping from -mapsize to +mapsize.

Yes, this would make the map appear as if it is infinite because you never walk to that "edge". And for discontinuities - I think that can be done with overflow (I think that's what it is called) i.e. if the range is 50 then 31000 + 50 = 31050 -> -31051.
Last edited by yw05 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Pyrollo » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:31

yw05 wrote:I think one of thw ways to make it appear to be infinite is by using overflow (I think this is what they call it) i.e. moving acorss the edge will bring you to the other end of the map (i.e. 30999, 31000, -31000, -30999) just like a ball. This would make the map appear as if it is infinite because you never walk to that "edge". I know this doesn't practically expand the world, but at least this could be a solution before we can find a way to make it truly infinite.


You just forgot the mapgen issue. This means that mapgen has to generate a seamless map at the edges. This is quite complex to implement.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:33

Pyrollo wrote:
yw05 wrote:I think one of thw ways to make it appear to be infinite is by using overflow (I think this is what they call it) i.e. moving acorss the edge will bring you to the other end of the map (i.e. 30999, 31000, -31000, -30999) just like a ball. This would make the map appear as if it is infinite because you never walk to that "edge". I know this doesn't practically expand the world, but at least this could be a solution before we can find a way to make it truly infinite.


You just forgot the mapgen issue. This means that mapgen has to generate a seamless map at the edges. This is quite complex to implement.

Wait, why do we need to generate a seemless map at the edges? We can use the data from the other edge, I guess.
The probelm would be at Y range - IRL going up will never send you to the core of the earth.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Pyrollo » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:36

yw05 wrote:Wait, why do we need to generate a seemless map at the edges? We can use the data from the other edge, I guess.


Ok but you'll have a very visible frontier in the form of brutal and linear edges and biome changes.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:41

Pyrollo wrote:
yw05 wrote:Wait, why do we need to generate a seemless map at the edges? We can use the data from the other edge, I guess.


Ok but you'll have a very visible frontier in the form of brutal and linear edges and biome changes.

Yes, then we would need an algorithm to fix violently cut edges, which would be complex. Anyway, I think we don't need larger Y range - 62000 * 3.14 > 62000.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Tue Jun 04, 2019 02:18

yw05 wrote:Anyway, I think we don't need larger Y range - 62000 * 3.14 > 62000.


You're right as far as an usual kind of gameplay is concerned, i.e. server multiplayer, creative or to some extent survival. However, and this is the point which makes this discussion reasonable, there's moreover another kind of gameplay which is based on a peculiar feeling of a limitless world to explore. It is a very interesting form of engagement and making such immense worlds would then provide a very different kind of satisfaction, provided that there's enough content to make exploration rewarding. Nevertheless I agree that the devs shouldn't perhaps divert their attention at the moment to this after all secondary issue if it requires a lot of conceptual work, especially given that there's still not enough mods offering sufficient variety of biomes capable of filling such immense spaces.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 05:36

voxelproof wrote:However, and this is the point which makes this discussion reasonable, there's moreover another kind of gameplay which is based on a peculiar feeling of a limitless world to explore. It is a very interesting form of engagement and making such immense worlds would then provide a very different kind of satisfaction, provided that there's enough content to make exploration rewarding.

Yes, and I think we can add multiple planets. I don't know if there's such a mod, but that would be more interesting (in the condition that it's realistic enough, for example you can't make a rocket that lands on the sun.)

Pyrollo wrote:Ok but you'll have a very visible frontier in the form of brutal and linear edges and biome changes.

One way to solve this is by replacing the data of one edge with the data of the other edge until the same biome and the same/similar height is reached.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by TenPlus1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 05:51

64k in this case is truly enough for any player/server, but having a properly implemented and layered mapgen so we could add vertical stacks of biomes would help make use of all that space so we could add other worlds to the current mapgen. Lets make use of what we have already available and make it feel like we have infinite worlds :)
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 09:49

TenPlus1 wrote:Lets make use of what we have already available and make it feel like we have infinite worlds :)

Yes, but here's the problem: most people don't live underground or over the ground unless they are building factories.
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by voxelproof » Wed Jun 05, 2019 09:47

yw05 wrote:
voxelproof wrote:However, and this is the point which makes this discussion reasonable, there's moreover another kind of gameplay which is based on a peculiar feeling of a limitless world to explore. It is a very interesting form of engagement and making such immense worlds would then provide a very different kind of satisfaction, provided that there's enough content to make exploration rewarding.

Yes, and I think we can add multiple planets. I don't know if there's such a mod, but that would be more interesting (in the condition that it's realistic enough, for example you can't make a rocket that lands on the sun.)


Frankly making limitless "voxel universe" through multiple planets wouldn't make much sense for me -- you'd ended up with a large collection of very clearly confined small sub-worlds, restrained to particular planets which would make smooth, seamless travelling through vast linear space impossible. What MT can take advantage of is imo its dreamy and somewhat fantastic nature, enabling creating practically infinite flat worlds hosting various interesting Earth-like (or any other) terrain formations without bothering how to manage the problems arising from the curvature of planets' globular shapes.

yw05 wrote:
Pyrollo wrote:Ok but you'll have a very visible frontier in the form of brutal and linear edges and biome changes.

One way to solve this is by replacing the data of one edge with the data of the other edge until the same biome and the same/similar height is reached.


Easy said, but it wouldn't work, believe me :)
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jun 05, 2019 09:53

voxelproof wrote:Frankly making limitless "voxel universe" through multiple planets wouldn't make much sense for me

I'd love it! Imagine No Mans Sky but with voxels! Different planets and solar systems where you can freely travel between. This would be fucking awesome!
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:29

voxelproof wrote:
yw05 wrote:
Pyrollo wrote:Ok but you'll have a very visible frontier in the form of brutal and linear edges and biome changes.

One way to solve this is by replacing the data of one edge with the data of the other edge until the same biome and the same/similar height is reached.

Easy said, but it wouldn't work, believe me :)

Yes, I know it is hard to implement, so I guess let's just keep those awful edges and brutal biome changes at the moment until we manage to implement this. :(
Linuxdirk wrote:
voxelproof wrote:Frankly making limitless "voxel universe" through multiple planets wouldn't make much sense for me

I'd love it! Imagine No Mans Sky but with voxels! Different planets and solar systems where you can freely travel between. This would be fucking awesome!

You mean to add a fourth coordinate (like: 0,0,0,mars)?
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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by Linuxdirk » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:55

yw05 wrote:
Linuxdirk wrote:Different planets and solar systems where you can freely travel between. This would be fucking awesome!

You mean to add a fourth coordinate (like: 0,0,0,mars)?

More like mars:0,0,0 to keep in scheme with other IDs. But basically yes. But I think more of multiple 3D coordinate system to map planets, so 0,0,0:0,0,0:0,0,0 is a valid position. First triplet denotes the system, the second one the planet and the third one the node ID on that planet. This would allow arbitrary systems and planets denoted by the coordinates and each planet can be 64Kx64K nodes large.
 

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Re: Truly infinite worlds (poll)

by yw05 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 14:17

Linuxdirk wrote:I think more of multiple 3D coordinate system to map planets, so 0,0,0:0,0,0:0,0,0 is a valid position. First triplet denotes the system, the second one the planet and the third one the node ID on that planet. This would allow arbitrary systems and planets denoted by the coordinates and each planet can be 64Kx64K nodes large.

Great idea. Add another one for galaxies :)
Also, it would be interesting if we have AdvRockets and a space mod (satellites, ...).
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