[poll] Want we a fork with different name in serverlist ?

[MoNTE48]

Canonical is a commercial organization that earns a lot of money.
How many times do I have to repeat to you? I do not show ads when a player plays multiplayer. Multiplayer is a loss for me. If a player doesn’t use a singleplayer, he won’t get a cent for me. Even if all the 0.4 servers are gone, it will mean nothing to me. I have 3 own servers, I am working on several new ones. In the end, even if I turn off the multiplayer, I will only benefit from a few dollars. And stop paying for server rental.

And 100$ are way to much in compare to your work on multicraft.

Yah you. We have a good expression - "if we are so smart, why are we so poor?" Tell me, what did you personally do for Minetest? blah blah don't count, show me a real contribution!

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pu ... or:MoNTE48
Yes, I didn’t do much. But I would gladly do more if it were not for people like you. Want to bet a thousand bucks? I will publish "Minetest+" on Google Play and the App Store - [MultiCraft engine + minetest_game 0.4.17] without ads and it will have much more installations than official Minetest! I thought a lot about it. You need to be a masochist to play the original minetest on Android. For so many years, he still hasn't even become a bit more comfortable.
Yes, I will pay $25 for a Google account and $100 for an Apple account. It will be such a bounty on my part. :-D

[Festus1965]

... 2) MultiCraft did not show and does not show advertising in multiplayer. Only in mainmenu and in single player.
Count, please, how much I personally earned on your server and I will pay you.

nothing more to say ... open source game with ads ... that's the fact.

[rubenwardy]

Let's say we decide to ban forks from the serverlist. How would we do this? Banning based on user agent will not be reliable, as forks may not change their user agent or may lie. Using some form of crypto signature would make Minetest drastically less free.

If this is about servers - as the OP seems to be - then it is worth noting that servers can't show ads because there are no ad agencies which would support showing ads inside of MT. Banning servers running forks which show ads from the serverlist won't help because it's the wrong side.

The vast majority of forks on the server list are friendly. CTF used to run on a personal fork of Minetest with some customisations. Just Test runs on a fork of 0.4.14, as said. Forking is a healthy part of open source.

Monte has contributed back to Minetest, which is more than what 99% of Android rip-offs have done.

That being said, if the server list is being manipulated by fake users or by setting it as a default in a popular app, then those servers should be penalised in the rankings.

Note: AFAIK, I've never received any money from Monte. I do accept donations, and some of them have been from anonymous users, so I don't know for certain

[Festus1965]

Monte has contributed back to Minetest, which is more than what 99% of Android rip-offs have done.

That being said, if the server list is being manipulated by fake users or by setting it as a default in a popular app, then those servers should be penalized in the rankings.

the first might be ok, but this servers are the only one, marketing with there fork name in the list !!!!
Going "back" to the advertise minetest better - is not fixing together.
The base is clear - is he, or other fork admins able to follow to 5.0 by there own, or are they just copy 5.0 mts again with a bit of code change and new name ? There is a big difference !!!
If they can code there own fork themselfe ok, if not ... haha


Yeah, I was waiting for that argument so long, but I was sure it will come, THANKS a lot!
"manipulated by fake users or by setting it as a default in a popular app"
define what is a fake user ?
* isn't the most time logged in admin and mods a good sign, that they might be near ?
* what is faked client ... my clients are all original mtc, running on PC AND allowed to stay how long they want, like my daughter often run out, eat, or look some video ... she can stay in, same for her friends ... and all my server users
* I don't use a timeout, yes I have powerful machines and big connection, but when other servers choose kick for inactivity as to shelter there power, lag - is it my problem ? (just look Multicraft, used some money to adverb better and get also the benefit in ...)
* how to detect a fake client ? - I myself stand often on same place as growing of trees, crop need to be nearby ...

The board has already decided to penalty against a sort of gamer, for me known as this name123 - and nice proofed by TalkLounge Video this days

Code: Select all

points = 0

			# 1 per client, but only 1/8 per "guest" client
			if "clients_list" in server:
				for name in server["clients_list"]:
					if re.match(r"[A-Z][a-z]{3,}[1-9][0-9]{2,3}", name):
						points += 1/8
					else:
						points += 1
			else:
				# Old server (1/4 per client)
				points = server["clients"] / 4

according to THIS, I can only tell admins USE the [mod] no_guests and use this filter (... [A-Z][a-z]{3,}[1-9][0-9]{2,3} ...) to ban them; Yes you might loose 7/8 points, but 8 of this useless gamer to get 1 point, instead of 1 good gamer making 1 point is a question of lag !
And folks, I think we proofed mainly that this gamer are useless at most. If someone want to take them and try to convince them ... have fun. After 1 or 2 Months you might be changed your mind.

Basically, where has this problem with the server-list came from ?
* First at all: too many servers !!! (WE have most more servers then gamer)
Too much gamer was unhappy with the servers existing, and was sure there concept will be better - and it is - like most in open market - 1 of 10 might have mad it to the top. He created the right mix of mod and word, fascinating more then others and got top.
* Second: (sorry to say that) stupid, lazy gamer ... as all human are more likely like lemmings ... follow the mass, follow or chose only the first (in the list) - At real Sport only the winner of Tour de France is getting really good income. The 2nd is already the looser (but we forget that every one reaching the finish after that 3 weeks is a super strong guy, "I did bicycle races myself - sure I know that!") ... Here is something very WRONG in human behavior, but it happens, every day !!! - as so also in minetest. Why I should choose the 3rd in Rank ... hes a looser.
* Third: even popular servers with a good concept have been "raped" from cheaters ... minetest was open to them, as it write always we are open source ... bal bla bla ... I and my daughter had a lot of fun on ctf, but without shelter from cheaters - no way ! OK, keep that philosophy ... but don't complain then when gamer leave!
* Forth: gamer most want to act together ! They want to chow there just gained armor to everyone else, they want to show there house ... they cant to this on empty servers (back to First, we have to much servers)

and by all of this facts, we also accept now fork servers, diverting it a next step more ... IF a fork game has his own gamer community, they even might not need or better avoid our list ... they will only loose them, spread them as of the same facts we do ...

So for me this is another step on the list of mistakes have done since long time ...

Ok, I can live with it, I have a local far away server, made for a special group that stick together.

But imagine a school like server, listed open - would break the list every time ... but is legal to be there, but I am sure ... it will come like this again:
"manipulated by fake users or by setting it as a default in a popular app"

but server owner just have to face the truth and know a bit how server list is sorted, kick the one not gaining points (ban name123), and let the ones make points stay (no inactivity kick), using reasonable settings as max 32 gamer, and more ...

So use your brain and don't complain, when the failure is yours at most.

It is easy for me here and cheap to prints about 1000 Sticker of minetest logo and spread them in front of schools ... and I know that most other servers are just over 200 ping ... I use a market black hole here, no others ... but how is opening another server just where already 20 servers exists ... open market show same = fail.


So I am looking forward to the next lonely decision of master server, without really face and answer public forum posts ... or the reality.

But if forks stay, I should invest 25 US$ ... for my fork, just another (better ?) name ... is like the server just test ... test mean nothing for long time, preversion ...

[rubenwardy]

I define fake users as either users which are actually bots (there are a few available for Minetest, they're used legitly to stress test) or fakely reported (ie: the server reports how many users they have, and could lie). Mobile users are real users

[Festus1965]

I define fake users as either users which are actually bots (there are a few available for Minetest, they're used legitly to stress test) or fakely reported (ie: the server reports how many users they have, and could lie). Mobile users are real users

O thanks also here:
* bots (there are a few available for Minetest, they're used legitly to stress test) - - I never searched for them, I have name123 if I needed stress test
* fakely reported (ie: the server reports how many users they have, and could lie) - - upps, another mhh open source wanted/allowed ... feature ! should I like it ?

[Chiantos]

Deleted message

[Festus1965]

to create a fork that would be controlled by the community

that will not work, if we are not able to change our self also the code - sure we cant !
maybe take a version that we all agree ? (hihi, just this is near impossible)
and just take over that code we agree ? (what mean agree, % of the guys take part ?)

and what do we gain with this fork ?
* own name
* own wishes or block not wished things
* ... ?

and then ? what is the meant/wanted advantage ?


the thing I see, might be a stable server, set on top1 and maid from us all !
special spawn - sure to catch all gamer and lead ! teach them ...
options from spawn, learn
* basic game play , move, dig, build, craft ...
* next step basic options like protection, armor, fight ?
* then teach about different most server directions: creative, build, survive , PvP ...
including a naming of participating servers, and also copied typical parts of there worlds like a showroom gamer can visit, to see and use this area for some time to see what he like ...

depends also more to advertising minetest, but what other cheap choice we have ...
* adverb with money ? hihi
* all of us can download minetest on android, wow we get maybe 200 downloads more, against 1.000.000 hihi
* we use what we have
* but need to stay and work together ... oh, I just realize 14 votes ... out of maybe 500 core dev, admin and gamer ...
upps, also here the hihihi, forget it

[Linuxdirk]

Let's say we decide to ban forks from the serverlist. How would we do this? Banning based on user agent will not be reliable, as forks may not change their user agent or may lie.

Let's say you decide to ban a "misbehaving server" from the serverlist. How would you do this? Banning based on anything the server reports will not be reliable, as forks may change the responses servers give.

See?

[IhrFussel]

Okay so as a long term server owner I think I can state what it is like from my perspective:

1. Almost none of those 'bots' are actual bots! They are mostly players from another country (Russia, Japan, Spain, Serbia are the most common ones) and if the servers had an Auto Translation feature like mine has then you would all finally accept this.

If you understand what they say you will see that they are just new players looking for a place to build...they are confused and maybe even overwhelmed by the game mechanics and that is why they mostly just walk around the spawn randomly.

God knows why they won't change the random generated name the forks give them, but the name has absolutely nothing to do with them being bots, low-quality or 'worthless'. Also the reason for them being so many is simple: Their app doesn't only randomly generate the username but ALSO the password. So they don't remember it and need to use a new name regularly (for example when they uninstalled the app)

I decided to try to help them and a lot of times they keep playing on my server and progress like any other 'non-low-quality' user. This is the main reason why I wanted the server list penalty lowered for them, but most core devs disagree here without actually owning a server or maintaining it actively.

2. I do find it rather rude to first (ab)use the Minetest servers for your commercial app for a few years and then, when a big update is required, to suddenly decide to run your own instead.

But let's face it: The forks give us new players on our servers...whether or not you want to support them is your decision.

If we start banning their servers from the official list, we could lose a huge chunk of the userbase.

[TalkLounge]

2) MultiCraft did not show and does not show advertising in multiplayer. Only in mainmenu and in single player.

You know exactly how much player will use your app, if you stop the multiplayer mode. You will have a player lost of 90% or more. Because if you played multiplayer once, you don't want to play singleplayer again. They will download the next app that looks like minecraft and maybe it's a app called minetest :)

Let's say we decide to ban forks from the serverlist. How would we do this? Banning based on user agent will not be reliable, as forks may not change their user agent or may lie. Using some form of crypto signature would make Minetest drastically less free.

That's the big question.
1.) You can do a breaking release with a part of code, that's essential for the breaking release(Changing network code for example) that have a function for lua integrated where you can read the title of the app. And these code you will release under a license, that you aren't allow to change, when you use the minetest server list. Then every server is 100% secure and can handle individually games that are not minetest.
The only problem there, is if gpl allows to integrate such a license. I don't think so.
2.) Change the license to not allow use it commercial. Won't work because some devs are dead and not everybody would agree with the license change.

And that's it. But I don't that's all. There must be a method to detect these reliable.

But the first step would be to kick out servers that have multicraft in it's name. Like the poll here says.

The vast majority of forks on the server list are friendly. CTF used to run on a personal fork of Minetest with some customisations. Just Test runs on a fork of 0.4.14, as said. Forking is a healthy part of open source.

That's not what I would call a fork. I have no problem to change the source code for servers, to do the job as a server better and more efficient. All these servers don't promote there edited server source code. But multicraft does. That's my problem. I am not against forking and put ads on it. But please don't use the minetest server list then.

That being said, if the server list is being manipulated by fake users or by setting it as a default in a popular app, then those servers should be penalised in the rankings.

So open 20 minetest clients, join on the server until the server is on place 1 in the list and the disconnect the clients again is not cheating? Well...
I did this to push Thomas server for multicraft users. And that was really easy and fast to get the server to the top.
The players of these fake games(multicraft etc.) are very young, don't do anything usefull(I made a video about it) and I would say that these are nothing other than my 20 minetest clients. Because they do anything either. Just pushing the server up in the server list. A minimum age for minetest would be nice. Because 7 year old kids don't know what they are doing and what's the internet etc.

And the Multicraft version of Monte48 is probably the most honest I've seen. It does not activate multiplayer advertising, shares the sources, respects the licenses and it injects money for its servers. We do not live in a world where we can live without money and if he wants to win money with his fork, this not a problem.

I have no problem what he is doing. Yes he & his app is the honest of all fake games. But he still wants to be an own game, so he shouldn't use minetest servers and the minetest server list to promoting his own game.
I think you can't understand me in that point, because you aren't a server owner. I don't want to support fake games with ads. I am paying for the server every month and only because of all minetest servers, that can't detect what app the player is using, these apps make money.

Let's say you decide to ban a "misbehaving server" from the serverlist. How would you do this? Banning based on anything the server reports will not be reliable, as forks may change the responses servers give.

That's not a problem. Banning by ip, by name(not multicraft in name or description) etc.
sfan5 banned servers already. A server with the name 'minetest is shit' were banned and a domain which send a lot of wrong server announces, were banned too. That's not the problem.

This is the main reason why I wanted the server list penalty lowered for them, but most core devs disagree here without actually owning a server or maintaining it actively.

Completely disagree, because 'dumb' people, because they are young and don't do anything useful than griefing shouldn't give more points then pro players, who play minetest since a long time and build amazing things.

But let's face it: The forks give us new players on our servers...whether or not you want to support them is your decision.

I don't need dumb and young players, that don't know anything of what they are doing. And if there were a method to detect the app, than there would not be such a problem for me.

If we start banning their servers from the official list, we could lose a huge chunk of the userbase.

Nobody would miss a multicraft server in the minetest server list, I think :)

[sorcerykid]

It's mind boggling why this discussion is still continuing.

Whether or not a server is forked doesn't have any proven correlation with the overall player experience. There are several non-forked servers that are running the MineClone2 game that are obviously far less like traditional Minetest. So why are MineClone2 servers allowed in the server list?

Here's an idea: Why don't we also just eliminate all servers that aren't running the default vanilla Minetest Game with the basic set of mods. No additional mods are allowed. Those servers with 200+ extra mods? Screw them! We only want Real Minetest(tm). No more knockoffs and customizations and add-ons and extensions. That's not what Minetest is about. We demand purity.

There problem solved. Case closed.

[Linuxdirk]

Let's say you decide to ban a "misbehaving server" from the serverlist. How would you do this? Banning based on anything the server reports will not be reliable, as forks may change the responses servers give.

That's not a problem. Banning by ip, by name(not multicraft in name or description) etc.
sfan5 banned servers already. A server with the name 'minetest is shit' were banned and a domain which send a lot of wrong server announces, were banned too. That's not the problem.

Changing hostname, changing IP. I'm pretty sure a server owner parasitizing the Minetest infrastructure has no issues with doing that.

[sorcerykid]

That's not what I would call a fork. I have no problem to change the source code for servers, to do the job as a server better and more efficient.

Fork in software development has a specific meaning. It's not a random word that is conditional on whatever some people feel like it should mean. Any changes to the source code that are not merged with the official project are a fork. It doesn't matter what the intention is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(sof ... velopment)

[TalkLounge]

There are several non-forked servers that are running the MineClone2 game that are obviously far less like traditional Minetest. So why are MineClone2 servers allowed in the server list?

Do you really want to compare a MineClone2 server with a multicraft server?
The multicraft server is promoting their own game in the minetest server list. No other server in the minetest server list, did this so far. That's why this discussion is here. To be clear if there's in a few years only a few servers left, that promote minetest, because developing a fake game with the earned money is much faster and easier. We can rename the minetest server list directly into server list and list all gaming servers in the whole world? Why we don't do this? Because it's for minetest servers!

Changing hostname, changing IP. I'm pretty sure a server owner parasitizing the Minetest infrastructure has no issues with doing that.

Worked every time since yet. Getting a new IP is much more effort than just adding a IP to a black list.

Fork in software development has a specific meaning. It's not a random word that is conditional on whatever some people feel like it should mean.

Sorry, I don't know how to name them. Hopefully it wasn't misleading.

[IhrFussel]

Completely disagree, because 'dumb' people, because they are young and don't do anything useful than griefing shouldn't give more points then pro players, who play minetest since a long time and build amazing things.

You seem to think that random username with numbers at the end == young, dumb low-quality player

Quite a few of you think like that and it is kind of saddening.

The username has 0% I repeat 0% to do with the talent, creativity or maturity of an individual. Many of those so-called 'useless' players on my server are actually teenagers and not little kids.

Teenagers who cannot use Minetest because there is no Minetest for iOS and in US especially iOS is the most popular OS on mobile devices. I cannot tell you why they don't choose their own name and accept the one the app gives them.

I think it's even possible that some of those forks force the name on you and don't even let you edit it or they might hide this renaming feature behind a paywall. Nothing is impossible when it comes to money-hungry app devs.

As long as there is no official Minetest for those devices I refuse to call those players 'bad' for the community, just because they have no other option.

[MoNTE48]

I will express my position.
1) I will use the Minetest server list as long as MultiCraft is 100% compatible. I had an idea to try to make backward compatibility with servers 5.0, it is much easier to add support for 0.4.17 in 5.0 than vice versa. There is something to think about...

2) I am busy developing my servers. MultiCraft does not promote anything. There is nothing to promote, there is no link. No apk, the game is not in Google Play. MultiCraft is the name of the subgame, at the very beginning MultiCraft was developed as a subgame for minetest. Minetest client support really limits me. Many things that I can add to the game require changes in the engine...

3) MultiCraft since version 1.2.0 has its own list of servers. The option will be activated as soon as this version becomes more popular. The list of MultiCraft servers will be higher than Minetest servers, in the end, all my players will forget about mt servers, do not worry. Then I remotely deactivate mt server list in my game.

4) When someone creates his fork of the Linux distribution, he can continue to use the package repository of the original distribution. This is not a parasite. While I can’t give players the best gaming experience, I’m giving them access to mt servers. You can write "MultiCraft this shit, install Minetest" on the spawn. I don’t think it will change anything :) When backward compatibility becomes too complicated, my servers will stop adding themselves to the mt list. When my changes affect gaming physics, I will remove the support for MT servers, as well.

[sorcerykid]

The multicraft server is promoting their own game in the minetest server list. No other server in the minetest server list, did this so far.

What do you mean by promote? Any server that has a different set of mods than vanilla Minetest Game is technically its own game. They might still be listed as "minetest_game", even if they actually are fork of the official game. MineClone2, however, is definitely a unique game. So if a MineClone2 server is titled "Bob's MineClone2 Server" then it should be delisted since it's not promoting Minetest Game?

[Linuxdirk]

and in US especially iOS is the most popular OS on mobile devices.

No.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266 ... ed-states/

[Chiantos]

Deleted message

[sorcerykid]

According to all of these lists, iOS is still in the lead in terms of U.S. marketshare:

https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share
http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-sha ... of-america

And here's a site that specifically acknowledges that the iOS userbase is nearly double that of Android in America:

"Analytics firm Mixpanel is out today with new data on mobile device OS market share and mobile browsing use in the US. Notably, Apple has almost double the user base on iOS compared to Android, which also translates to Safari being the most popular mobile browser... In some states, iOS’ usage was very high – around three-quarters or more of the population are using Apple’s OS."

https://9to5mac.com/2018/08/06/ios-safa ... ket-share/

Minetest is an international gaming platform, not solely European. So when you crunch the numbers of mobile users, you absolutely can't discount the remarkable influence of iPhones and iPads in the United States.

[Linuxdirk]

deviceatlas.com is run by Afilias Group who are technical contact for the .apple gTLD. Itis unlikeley for them being neutral on Apple-related things.

https://deviceatlas.com/about-us
https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db/apple.html

StatCounter uses tracking on various sites to determine the numbers. There is no correction of sampling bias and the counter uses hits, not unique visitors. Their numbers are unreliable due to sampling method.

http://gs.statcounter.com/faq#methodology

[IhrFussel]

deviceatlas.com is run by Afilias Group who are technical contact for the .apple gTLD. Itis unlikeley for them being neutral on Apple-related things.

https://deviceatlas.com/about-us
https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db/apple.html

StatCounter uses tracking on various sites to determine the numbers. There is no correction of sampling bias and the counter uses hits, not unique visitors. Their numbers are unreliable due to sampling method.

http://gs.statcounter.com/faq#methodology

All these statistics don't matter when the real world is clear:

In USA the very first thing anyone will ask you is 'do you have iMessage?' and that is a fact. Actually iMessage is the default texting app on iOS devices AFAIK therefore people don't even have to ask for it, they just share numbers and expect you to have iOS.

Neither Whatsapp nor Telegram or any other messaging app (Facebook Messenger is 2nd place IIIRC) is as prominent as iOS's messenger which ultimately tells me that most people these days are more interested in iOS in USA.

I browse daily in American boards and I see threads like:

- Why does Europe love Android so much?
- What is Whatsapp and why should I use it?
- Why don't more people outside the US use iOS?

weekly.

[Linuxdirk]

Neither Whatsapp nor Telegram or any other messaging app (Facebook Messenger is 2nd place IIIRC) is as prominent as iOS's messenger which ultimately tells me that most people these days are more interested in iOS in USA.

Or good old SMS.

https://www.basicthinking.com/usa-whatsapp-unpopular/

[Festus1965]

2 need more facts
5 voted yes, they can stay and show like this
9 (56%) voted no, they should use own list

sum 16 votes (100%),

on 21.06. and another month to go
as it seam to have about near 400 gamer sure,
or near 226 server admin ?

= de-interesting thing, but let them time