building a game from scratch

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v-rob
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by v-rob » Post

azekill_DIABLO wrote:Birch aren't swamp trees I think. I know I'm pesky.
Well, they might be aspens (although those aren't swamp trees either), but hey, it looks nice.

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

azekill_DIABLO wrote:Birch aren't swamp trees I think. I know I'm pesky.
in germany, birches can grow anywhere, even swamps :P
v-rob wrote: Well, they might be aspens (although those aren't swamp trees either), but hey, it looks nice.
yes, they are aspens, because the wood colour was too dark for birches. (but they were actually birch textures in minecrap)

aspens grow in cold humid areas which are usually coniferous.
i called neptune the swamp biome because it has mossy grass. it's placed between mercury (glacier) and jupiter (jungle).
cool and humid is good blend for those two, and it's the climate where aspens grow =(^.^)=
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by azekill_DIABLO » Post

German AspenBirch Swamp treez then!

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

i'm not dead yet, just lazy :P

i reset the trees mod back to 0, because copying the default trees was not what i wanted and in the end it means even more work to use them and change them later. so if i'm working on the new trees mod, it will be my own tree models from the beginning.
for now i'm working on lots of improvements to the biome map.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

it's done! the biome map finally works as intended.
i switched from the square grid pattern to a diamond cross pattern. the biome distribution is now much better and the "mismatching beach glitch" is also fixed.
height limit and filler depth have been adjusted for smoother borders between biomes and altitude variants.
the colours of stone across the biome map is now aligned like a gradient. ice only appears adjancent to grey stone, red stone only near yellow stone, brown stone is in between yellow and grey stone.
everything looks just gorgeous =(^.^)=

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by wziard » Post

azekill_DIABLO wrote:Birch aren't swamp trees I think. I know I'm pesky.
But they are (?). Where I live the swampy areas are covered with a mixture of birch, willow and alder (closely related to birch) trees.

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by MHL » Post

Nice! I had a similar idea.
Come see my Minetest Puzzle MAP

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

i should be working on tree models, but i'm too lazy.
now i have to work on a server town project.
i promise to get back to work when minetest 5.0 releases.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

not only did i not make any progress with trees, i also realized that i messed up the biome map. important ideas for a unique experience, like the glass desert or luminous swamp water, were left out and i ended up with a slightly modified set of the standard biomes.
focusing too much on simple and clean design, i created a boring remake instead of a new original world.

so i started over again, but this time i will focus on making the game playable first and add content afterwards.
the new plan for the biome map still has some holes, but i will fill them eventually.
i also changed the name to Almagest.

still keeping the focus on alchemy, i want to add a lot more node interactions based on heat and moisture, so that instead of using furnaces and autocrafters, the player can construct full functional large scale alchemic transmutation devices.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by texmex » Post

so i started over again, but this time i will focus on making the game playable first and add content afterwards.
This is, I suspect, the fate of many game makers! Myself included. Core gameplay has ”core” in it for a reason. Good luck! :)
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by ShadMOrdre » Post

Firefox,

Please look at my lib_materials and lib_ecology mods. You'll find biomes, and plenty of tree schematics, as well as node defs for those trees and plenty of plants and other things that could make this easier for you.

Shad
MY MODS: lib_ecology lib_materials lib_clouds lib_node_shapes ---- Inspired By: Open Source Virtual World Simulator Opensimulator.

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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

news flash:

during my last free time at the end of summer, i did nothing.
then, when the new semester started, i resumed working on this even though i should have done math homework instead.

no new code yet, but i finally fixed all my previous design problems.
for now i have a diagram of stones and sands, and how they interact with heat, moisture, frost and drought elements.
every resource is renewable one way or another.
stone will drop itself when mined, cobble is a craft product, acting as a simple form of bricks.
sand is crafted from stone (one-way only), even clay and dirt can be created if you have the ingredients.

the plan has 25 solid and 4 liquid materials. no grass or moss for the surface yet and no decorative building blocks either. just the basics for the "ground" mod which makes up the earth.

for the surface i have planned to simply use grass and moss, both can dry out (and regenerate if the dirt is not dry). variations will be based on trees, since growing trees shall transform the grass around them.

and since node names can be different from their IDs, all variations of sand will simply be named "sand" instead of "desert sand", "silver sand" ect.
sand is sand. you can see what colour it is in the world and in your invetory, no need to long descriptive names.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

so far i still fail to put together a plan for usable biome maps to start working on actual content.
trying to fit in all my ideas creates a weird patchwork effect, while trying to make it reasonable ends up with a modified version of the default mapgen.

eventually i arrived at a similar idea as ShadMOrdre's lib_ecology, and after looking at it in-game, i decided to go with that idea.

i couldn't fill the entire map yet, and will also need to add a bunch of transition biomes, but for the first time it's taking a form that i like.
here are my ideas so far:

the most thought-out part is the Desert Region. a land that was once green, but is now mostly dead after the drought came.
the main biomes here are the Dusty Dunes, accompanied by Fossil Ocean on lower grounds and the Glass Desert on higher ground. from time to time you can find a Cactus Grove. the hidden oasis in this part is Lost Green.
the underground mostly consists of limestone.

Glass Desert: A desert so hot that the sand has partially turned into glass. Crystal formations change colour depending on the light. (red sand, red sandstone, source of rainbow crystals)

Fossil Ocean: Once part of the sea, this land has now risen to the surface. It is too salty to support life. Salt pillars and coral skeletons decorate the dry dunes. (white sand, white sandstone, source of bones, salt and chalk)

Dusty Dunes: Remnants of a once green land. The drought has crumbled the soil to dusty sand, all plants here are long dead. (yellow sand, yellow sandstone, dead wood and dry shrubs)

Cactus Grove: Hidden water reservoirs underground allowed certain plants to survive. Despite their plumb and thorny appearance, they still bloom as beautiful as they used to before the drought. (same as Dusty Dunes but alive, cactus flowers)

Lost Green: A miracle. Untouched by the drought, this region survived until now. The last oasis in a now dead land.
(yellow sandstone, green grass, plum trees and flowers)


the next part is the Boreas Region. surrounded mostly by Eternal Ice on the shores and occasionally on land, the main biome is Cold Forest. on higher ground it will change into Sleeping Forest, and beyond you may find the Awakened Forest.
the underground is just stone, caves may contain ice.

Eternal Ice: Frozen water, towering up like mountains. Nothing grows here, since there is no soil, not even stone. (just ice, sometimes with snow on top)

Cold Forest: The winter wind rules harshly over this forest. Only the most sturdy plants can prosper in this cold region. Despite it's unsettling climate, this forest is vibrant of life. (grey stone, gravel, more moss than grass, pine trees and some others, small flowers)

Sleeping Forest: Covered in deep layers of snow, this forest rests in eternal sleep. (same as Cold Forest but with much snow, also no more flowers)

Awakened Forest: A fallen star melted the snow and awoke nature from it's sleep. The remaining stardust on the ground merged with the earth, water and plants, causing changes in their appearance. (similar to Cold Forest, but everything is silver and sparkly, Star Flower grows here)

the third part is the Forest Region. bad name, but it has the most foresty forests out of all the forests.
the main biome are the Whispering Woods, with the Dusky Woods right behind.
behind the Dusky Woods you may find the Murky Woods, and hidden within there lies the Hexentanzplatz.
the underground here is brown stone, mixed with other materials.

Whispering Woods: A lush and colourful forest. The wind rustling through the leaves sounds like whisper. (brown stone, grass, most trees can be found here)

Dusky Woods: As the trees grew bigger, the space in between grew smaller. The branches cast shadows, making the forest look dark even in bright daylight. Many secrets are said to be hidden within. (like Whispering Woods but more and bigger trees, less flowers)

Murky Woods: Rivalry for sunlight caused the trees to grow taller and taller, leaving dark empty halls below. Mysterious mushrooms are the only things that grow here now. (tall dark trees with wide crowns at the top, no vegetation below except for various kinds of luminous fungus, rivers glow green)

Hexentanzplatz: A rare clearing in the Murky Woods. Witches once gathered for dance here, strangely affecting the surrounding nature. (odd coloured plants, such as blue roses)


for the last part, i want to have japanese biomes and this is where i'm lacking ideas...
one of the main biomes will be the Bamboo Grove, and the rare biome is the Enchanting Forest.

Bamboo Grove: A thick forest of bamboo stalks. They say you will get spirited away if you get lost here during the the twilight. (bamboo everywhere, maybe some variations of open areas with small short groves and tight areas with huge stalks)

Enchanting Forest: The trees carry petals instead of leaves. Blooming even at night, this place looks out of this world. (sakura and wisteria trees that glow in the dark)


for transitions between the other 3 parts, i will include "field" variants of the forest biomes and some dry grass fields towards the Desert Region.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by texmex » Post

Love those biome concepts! =D
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

so i found this handy voronoi diagram simulator (http://alexbeutel.com/webgl/voronoi.html)
and it turns out that the voronoi cells behave much different from what i expected when i drew it on paper.
my biggest problem is now is not the missing transition between certain biomes, but the fact that a geometric uniform distribution doesn't seem to work.

all other mapgen mods i have seen so far also use asymmetric biome distribution, and now i don't know how to decide which ones shall be more common than others...
my last hope is the x- and z-limit that i read about somewhere. if that feature actually exists, i could separate biomes based on world coordinates and have the map that i wanted.

EDIT:
i'm stupid.
i had a solution all this time and failed to notice it. i'll keep the square-grid pattern and define the same biome on multiple points to get the desired shape.
this should also allow for more variation and better transition at biome borders.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

i'm onto something...
setting biome points every 20 steps i've got 36 horizontal biome points.
recycling my older ideas, this creates 9 biome groups with 4 biomes each.

basically this is a more detailed version of my previous work, which now can fit in all my ideas (and more) thanks to the niches created by dividing the 9 biome groups into smaller areas.
too bad i deleted everything out of frustration...
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by texmex » Post

firefox wrote:i'm onto something...
setting biome points every 20 steps i've got 36 horizontal biome points.
recycling my older ideas, this creates 9 biome groups with 4 biomes each.

basically this is a more detailed version of my previous work, which now can fit in all my ideas (and more) thanks to the niches created by dividing the 9 biome groups into smaller areas.
too bad i deleted everything out of frustration...
Thank you for this, as it's guiding for my biome work as well. Can you elaborate on your heat/humidity point system?
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by firefox » Post

texmex wrote:
firefox wrote:i'm onto something...
setting biome points every 20 steps i've got 36 horizontal biome points.
recycling my older ideas, this creates 9 biome groups with 4 biomes each.

basically this is a more detailed version of my previous work, which now can fit in all my ideas (and more) thanks to the niches created by dividing the 9 biome groups into smaller areas.
too bad i deleted everything out of frustration...
Thank you for this, as it's guiding for my biome work as well. Can you elaborate on your heat/humidity point system?
i decided on a 6x6 grid, with biome points set at the 0, 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100 coordinates.
the values can range from -25 to 125.
although exceeding the 0/100 limit is rare, especially in both values, so the four corners are the most rare.

aligning the biomes with their actual heat/humidity seems not possible, so i compromised a little.
so i put the ice biomes in the botom left corner, where it's cold and dry. normally one would associate water/ice with cold and humid, but then the bamboo would have to go in the dry region and is illogical.
my logic is that ice is indeed dry, since if it doesn't melt, then there is no moisture.

setting heat on the x-axis and humidity on the y-axis, with the origin (0,0) in the bottom left corner, i get the following distribution:
dryness towards the bottom, moisture towards the top, cold to the left and heat to the right.
this still doesn't fit perfectly with all biomes, but one can also consider 50 as "normal" and 0 and 100 as "extreme in either direction". to avoid the jungle-next-to-glacier problem, i moved the glacier to the dry region, in the opposite corner of the jungle.
this puts glaciers on the same line as deserts, but the transition is easier there as it can go from ice desert to hot desert.
forests are placed in the upper half, getting more swampy towards the top, this is why bamboo fits in the top left corner even though the heat value there is "cold".

my old 9-biome design was like this:
bamboo swamp jungle
taiga forest savanna
tundra gravel sand

now instead of one biome point, each of those is made four biome points. this adds variation and better transitions to neighbouring regions.
the expected rarity goes like this:

1 2 3 3 2 1
2 3 4 4 3 2
3 4 5 5 4 3
3 4 5 5 4 3
2 3 4 4 3 2
1 2 3 3 2 1

the middle part will be the most common and also the transition between the 4 side regions. so i will put mixed forests and fields there. forest to the top, fields to the bottom, warm to the right, cold to the left.

the surrounding points are the nearest common biomes and will be more singular, like coniferous forest, dry forest, snowy forest, mossy forest, ect.
towards the sides biomes get more extreme, like desert, swamp and ice.
the corners are the most rare, so they will be very special biomes, such the oasis in the desert.

regarding height variations, not all biomes will have them, but it is another way to add partially rare biomes to high mountain tops. naturally most biomes shall have some variation in height, like a thicker layer of snow, or less sand and more rock in the desert.

water level is 0, so the beach may extend to +5 (if any) and the shore to -5. below that is ocean until -120.
clouds are at +120, so biomes above there are for sky islands and very high mountains.
i guess setting the height borders at 40 and 80 should work well.

i wasn't able fill every point yet, but for some filler biomes i need to see it in-game to decide.
so i will start from the middle and extend outwards.

the desert region is the one where i had the most ideas and i consider it almost complete.
on this map, the desert region are the four points in the bottom right corner (hot and dry).
the corner point (1) at 0,100 is the most rare, so it will be the oasis.
the inner point (3) is the most common and the one that is next to the savanna and dry field biomes, so i will put the "yellow desert" there. Cactus Grove below 40, Dusty Dunes above and just plain sandstone above 80.
(for the skylands above 120 i have no idea yet. i will probably use a smaller biome map there)
the border points (2) will be "red desert" to the top right and "white desert" to the bottom left.
Glass Desert will be put above 80 in the red desert. below is red desert without glass and maybe some plants near sea level, as the neighbouring biomes are savanna-like.
Fossil Ocean will be in the white desert. height variations will be based on the sea but in reverse order (shallow sea near the sea level, deep sea on high mountains).

by assigning 2 vertical biome points to things like savanna or taiga, i can use the upper point for forest and the lower for grass. with this i don't need complex perlin noise to create groves and plains, as the mapgen will do that based on humidity.
"fill-ratio" is easier to use and i can set forests to become less dense with increasing height.
the only downside of this system is the sheer number of biome definitions, which makes it more difficult to register decorations such as flowers. but at the same time it also gives much more control over which flowers are to be generated where and how many. i find this much easier to use than perlin noise.
Last edited by firefox on Sun Mar 01, 2020 08:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: building a game from scratch - Sol Aureus

by texmex » Post

Holy mese, that’s ellaborate! Thank you! It’ll take some time to process this ’:D
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Re: building a game from scratch

by paramat » Post

I designed MTGame's biome system using a voronoi diagram generator that updates in real time as you drag the points around. I found this realtime feature essential.
The linux program GeoGebra does this.

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Re: building a game from scratch

by firefox » Post

new flash:

it seems to be impossible to figure out the proper sizes of the hotbar textures, so i'm forced to give up on those for now.

going back to my biome map, i noticed some inconsistencies regarding the placement of living ocean and dead ocean (fossil desert).
after finally understanding shadmore's method of biome distribution using ores in the biome top layer, i also figured that some of my ideas, specifically the Hexentanzplatz, are better used this way instead taking an entire biome point on the map.
just by imagining the distribution of ocean biomes and how the fossil desert would have risen to the surface, i had to toss my last (incomplete) biome map and make a new approach with a different interpretation of heat and humidity.

i'm currently wavering between 4 differentiations for 16 zones, or 5 for 25 zones.
i like 16 since it's an integer and it feels good, but 25 has better coordinate numbers.
it also has a neutral point between warm/cool and arid/humid, but my problem with that is that i used the same idea once before and the boring neutral biome at the 50-50 coordinate was all over the map...

i guess i'm going for 16 zones. since the ore method can put tree groves on grassland or clearings in forests, i don't need separate biomes for forests and grasslands in the same region, so 16 zones should be enough.
without a neutral middle biome, and therefore 4 neighbouring zones in the centre, this should also bring more diversity in-game.
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Re: building a game from scratch

by firefox » Post

minor progress on the biome theory.
irrelevant to players, but maybe interesting or helpful to biome-map creators:


i defined 16 roughly equal-sized climate zones on a grid. biome points are at 0, 35, 65 and 100.
temperature on the x-axis cold, cool, warm, hot.
humidity on the y-axis drouth, dry, moist, wet.

water will keep it's regular blue shade in cool/warm climates, a darker greyish tone in the cold climates and a lighter greenish tone in the hot climates.
grass covers on soil will be moss/mossy in wet/moist climates, and dry in hot-dry climate. drouth climate will have no grass cover.

ice is present in all cold climates (frozen ocean) and features a snow layer based on humidity.
cold climates will have snow at higher elevation, and maybe frozen rivers.

the ratio of dirt and clay will also be based on humidity, featuring more clay in the warmer climates.
depending on moisture, there will be hard clay and hard(dried) dirt.

the crafting progression of earthen materials is stone -> gravel -> sand -> sandstone.
sand can become dirt or clay when combined with organic or anorganic components.
all those are available in 4 colour variants:
black-dark grey in cold climate
grey-white/silver in cool climate
brown-yellow in warm climate
red-orange in hot climate

stone conversion will be added with the introduction of ores and minerals.
black stone is the source, created by lavacooling. grey stone is created by infusing it with quartz. this can then become yellow or red with sulfur or iron components.

biome assignments (not in detail yet) are as follows:

cold/wet - glacier: just masses of ice, covered with lots of snow. packed ice on the shores. (water -> ice -> river water, ice -> snow -> packed ice)

cool/moist - coniferous forest: just as the name says, home of berries and small nuts

cold/moist - frosty forest: snowy coniferous forest, less food, it's always winter here

warm/moist - leafy forest: lush green mixed forest, home of nuts and mushrooms

hot/moist - tropical forest: exotic trees with exotic fruit

cool/dry - cold plains: grassland version of coniferous forest, few trees and more berry bushes

warm/dry - warm plains: grassland version of leafy forest, basically flower fields

hot/dry - savannah: few trees, mostly dry grasses and shrubs

cool/wet - bog swamp: muddy swamp, full of mushrooms and poison, large trees at elevation

warm/wet - bamboo swamp: bamboozled :P, you may find sakura/wisteria trees here

hot/wet - rainforest: bland soil, tall trees with lush crowns and fruit (if you can reach them)

cool/drouth - white desert: used to be under the sea once, salt pillars and fossils

warm/drouth - yellow desert: your regular desert, with cacti

hot/drouth - red desert: hard clay, few spots with soft red soil

cold/drouth - ice desert: no snow (it's dry) but any water is frozen solid


i think volcanoes would be nice in the ice desert. the Hexentanzplatz goes into the bog swamp, frosty forest could have some rare ice flowers, the Glass Desert would be on high ground in red desert.
and that's just the surface world. the ocean floor and underground will get their own biome maps.
i'm also thinking about an inferno and cocytus layer in the underground.
=(^.^)= nyan~

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