MTG: Desert mining just got even worse

[Wuzzy]

In the upcoming version of Minetest Game, desert mining will likely be massively nerfed.

Unless you are playing with mapgen v6, in deserts, the desert stone will extend down to Y=-256. Which means: No ores for 256 nodes if you're in the desert! Not even coal. This is brutal.
The same is true for sandstone deserts: Only sandstone and zero ores for 256 nodes in sandstone deserts.

Desert mining was already hard (and boring), and with a recent change it got even worse. WHYYYY?

If you always wondered why I hate MTG with a deep passion, it's always BS like this. Y_Y

But hey, at least the next update will have dry dirt!!1!1 xD

I always thought to myself that it'd be best to just kill MTG. But I have changed my mind now. MTG needs to be kept alive as a cautionary tale of what exactly you must do to screw up a game. :D

[Linuxdirk]

Desert mining was already hard (and boring), and with a recent change it got even worse. WHYYYY?

BeCAUse FOr THE CHalLengE

[TumeniNodes]

Don't hate on dry_dirt... it did nothing to you.

[sfan5]

Whining on the forums has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

[Hamlet]

In the upcoming version of Minetest Game, desert mining will likely be massively nerfed.[...]

What to say... their game, their style, their rules.
I don't hate it, in fact I use it as base for my game; I've tweaked it to match my tastes. I don't even like its license, etc. etc. etc.
But it gives me the chance to learn.
Let's make a step forth, let's leave critics behind our shoulders, let's move forward.

About one year ago I started developing an environment, "MeVo".
Its license - E.U.P.L. v1.2 - is basically the GPL, but officially available in other languages than English.

At some point I will restart its development, but if someone is interested in contributing to that project by helping with nodes definitions, etc. I will reupload it on Git. EDIT: It's again on Git.

TL:DR - Instead than criticizing MTG let's develop a neutral environment that can be customized later. It "only" takes to define the biomes and the nodes, and tweaking minerals occurrence. With a settingtypes.txt you could even finely tune it: where does iron spawn? How much? Etc. etc.

Do you want it to have doors? Add a doors mood. Do you want it to have shuttles? Add a shuttles mod.

[TumeniNodes]

Adding oil to deserts would be pretty great (and then uses for oil)
Then we can have wars to control the oil : )

[Hamlet]

Adding oil to deserts would be pretty great (and then uses for oil)
Then we can have wars to control the oil : )

/me takes note: add tar to MeVo's warm desert biomes.

[Wuzzy]

BeCAUse FOr THE CHalLengE

It'S sO mUcH !!!FuN!!! tO dIg OnLy WiTh StOnE PiCkAxE!

Instead than criticizing MTG let's develop a neutral environment that can be customized later.

Except I already develop my games. :P

Also, why should I not be allowed to criticise games? This is absurd.

Whining on the forums has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

And this does change my criticism … how? :P

So … is there even any justification why deserts got so much deeper? I mean, gameplay justification? Or did it just “happen”? Let me repeat myself: no ores for 256 nodes deep. This just doesn't make sense. What's the point except to make the game more grindy?

Don't hate on dry_dirt... it did nothing to you.

Haha, indeed. I didn't want to hate on dry dirt, actually. It looks quite nice, even. I just wanted to make fun of the fact that this little change, which is a small step forwards, is completely negated by the huge leap backwards caused by nerfing deserts for (apparently) no reason.

I don't hate it, in fact I use it as base for my game; I've tweaked it to match my tastes.

Usually, when I hate on MTG, I hate specifically on vanilla MTG. Indeed, a modded MTG can be pretty nice, for example, I have played very long on the JT2 server, and sometimes on Jungle, too. But those servers are very heavily modded, they are basically games in their own right. If a game needs mods to be fun, then it actually has failed as a game. The “Game” in “Minetest Game” really is a misnomer. Minetest Game? More like Minetest Modding Base!

[Linuxdirk]

Whining on the forums has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

Making PRs or issues has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... 27t+add%22

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... 27t+add%22

And those are only the ones that were tagged properly and not simply closed/ignored.

[Hamlet]

Instead than criticizing MTG let's develop a neutral environment that can be customized later.

Except I already develop my games. :P

Also, why should I not be allowed to criticise games? This is absurd.

[...]Minetest Game? More like Minetest Modding Base!

Your games are - as far as I know - based on Minetest Game, just like mine.
As long as your game will be based on MTG you will keep finding things that you dislike or do not agree with, and you will keep writing posts like this, and developers eventually will just ignore you; this would be absurd: it is like having a car you dislike and spending your time writing tweets about how it sucks, sooner or later someone will ask: "Why don't you buy another one, are you masochist?" Just drop MTG, ignore it and step forth.

I didn't wrote that you are not allowed to criticize games, please do not put words in my mouth.

My point is: as long as your game, my game, whoever's game will be based on MTG there will be something that I, you, do not like.

Some people like apples, some oranges.

So, instead of spending time criticizing someone else game let's spend time developing a neutral base environment that I, you, whoever can use as base for games without having to strip/tweak/modify whatever I/you/etc. do not like in MTG.

I would rather spend my time creating something useful for me and maybe for other people too. Open Source, and on an Open Source git host.

[TumeniNodes]

Whining on the forums has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

Making PRs or issues has proven to be a very effective method of changing things (not).

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... 27t+add%22

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... 27t+add%22

And those are only the ones that were tagged properly and not simply closed/ignored.

And some of those PRs were put up by devs and long time/repeat contributors so, I don't understand the continual upheaval over it.
Just in the first lines I saw quite a few under tenplus1, who is a long time and repeat contributor... yet he also has 50 commits to game and not sure how many to engine... yet I never heard him gripe when some were rejected.
Granted, people will become upset if something they feel should be added is not, while some things they feel should not, are... but more often than not, there are fair reasons as to why not.

Then some talk about putting the entire community in charge... which would fail quickly... because there are far too many differing views and expectations.

[Xudo]

I think it is possible to travel few minutes to reach some non-desert biome.
In addition to dirt and stone, you will be able to find there water, trees and probably food.
I see no problem in making desert biome harder. It gives you reasons to travel

[PolySaken]

This is good for me because my mod ocular networks populates desert stone with some ores and this way I can make the harder to get to, even if it's only a little bit.

[Linuxdirk]

I see no problem in making desert biome harder. It gives you reasons to travel

Making it harder is good, because MTG has no challenge at all. But making it more cumbersome is not making it harder.

[firefox]

on the positive side: we get more sources for sandstone and desert stone.

also, who actually plays MTG seriously without modifying it?

[PolySaken]

on the positive side: we get more sources for sandstone and desert stone.

also, who actually plays MTG seriously without modifying it?

Anybody who still uses minetesthosting.net lol

[paramat]

Good grief Wuzzy here we go again.

Desert stone now extends down to -255 instead of -112, that is not much of a change. The tunnels allow easy vertical travel, it is sometimes possible to walk to -256 without digging anything. It is ridiculous to think that is 'brutal' or 'hard'. Many people find MTG excessively easy, and it is.

The 'spawn' mod makes sure new players never spawn in a desert, so it will not affect the initial search for coal.
Players know there are no ores in desert stone (so far) so if you want shallow ores just don't go into the desert.

Everything is done for good reason and this was done for at least 3 good reasons (which you do not deserve me explaining), and you have made no effort to mention the reasons already present or alluded to in the commit message.
None of these good reasons was an attempt to increase difficulty or challenge, that was a by-product.

You may disagree with the decision, but it is pointless making uninformed bitchy insulting threads in the forum about other people's games just because you disagree with a decision.
Your criticism is worded in a way that makes it clear it is some kind of irrational and obsessive hating on MTG.
You are a valued contributor, but threads like this create feelings of resentment, and you deserve that reaction due to the way you have criticised.
No one is forcing you to use MTG, stop wasting your time like this and just ignore it.

Linuxdirk, any PR with 'won't add' was rejected for good reason.
I see you cannot help joining in with the stupid negativity.

[Linuxdirk]

Everything is done for good reason […] which you do not deserve me explaining […] and you deserve that reaction[…]

Is that an official statement by a core Minetest developer or is that your personal opinion?

Linuxdirk, any PR with 'won't add' was rejected for good reason.
I see you cannot help joining in with the stupid negativity.

“Good reason” is debatable. My previous tries to evaluate where to help were rejected or ignored for “good reason” (or personal disagreement, or whatever, I don’t care any longer), and now we’re in a situation that I won’t help with any code (even if I could) because of MT being hosted by Microsoft, a company I avoid since 20+ years.

[duane]

Is that an official statement by a core Minetest developer or is that your personal opinion?

Where's this official bureaucracy you keep alluding to? I want to see their legal paperwork. Or are you just being disingenuous? : )

Linuxdirk, any PR with 'won't add' was rejected for good reason.
I see you cannot help joining in with the stupid negativity.

“Good reason” is debatable. My previous tries to evaluate where to help were rejected or ignored for “good reason” (or personal disagreement, or whatever, I don’t care any longer), and now we’re in a situation that I won’t help with any code (even if I could) because of MT being hosted by Microsoft, a company I avoid since 20+ years.

Ok, seriously?! I'm the most anti-microsloth guy I know (in real life, at least). I read Techrights on a regular basis, but even I can't find a rational reason to completely avoid github -- everything I put on there is public data anyway.

But, not to completely derail the thread, the desert has traditionally been a difficult area to start in. I don't see any reason to change direction on that. Deserts are hostile in real life too (for other reasons).

[Wuzzy]

Desert stone now extends down to -255 instead of -112, that is not much of a change.

That's more than double the previous depth. And yeah, I think the desert underground was bad before, too, but not too bad.

Yeah, I agree it's still not really hard. But it's more about being grindy and boring. You said yourself difficulty was not even considered.

I think the desert underground is incredibly boring as it contains nothing but desert stone. The underground of other biomes are still simple, but they are much richer: They got (down to Y=-255) coal ore, iron ore, tin ore, copper ore, silver sand, dirt and gravel. Desert undergrounds have … nothing of that. Sure, not all of these would make sense, but there should be at least … something. Now that desert underground is so deep, I do think the lack of ores (both “ore” ores (coal ore, iron ore, etc.) and “blob” ores) is becoming a problem.

Yes, I know deserts are meant to be barren, but that doesn't explain why the underground must be so boring. The desert underground just leaves much to be desired.

This is my criticism, and I stick to it.

I do see, however, large patches of sand on the floor in deserts. Which is a little strange since it's not desert sand. But that alone is no reason for a rant. I even believe this might be actually the sand from the ocean biome which somehow snuck into the cave. I see it in a lot of other biomes, too. This might even be a bug, but it's not really important. I don't really mind either way.

For sandstone deserts I can at least kinda accept the reason to not put inside any ores … it's sandstone.

Anyway, the commit message does not explan the lack of ores.

No one is forcing you to use MTG, stop wasting your time like this and just ignore it.

Well, there's just a problem: MTG is still the default game. No game is immune from criticism. Especially not the default game.

[PolySaken]

What is desert stone even meant to be? Is it based on a real geological phenomenon, or just thematic?

[parasite]

So the solution that will satisfy some complainers is to do PR for minetest game introducing few new blocks:
* coal in desert stone
* iron in desert stone
* copper in desert stone
and maybe
* coal in stoneblock
* gold in stoneblock
and then setting the appropriate min and max height of spawning of these ...

Linuxdirk, any PR with 'won't add' was rejected for good reason.

Everything is done for good reason and this was done for at least 3 good reasons (which you do not deserve me explaining)

However, perhaps there are some behind-the-scenes mysterious rules that describe the desert biome to be useless to the miner... (and we players are not worthy to know them)... Seriously though, the topic of discussion is interesting and others players may also want to know something here, after all, it's not just Wuzzy who's here. Are there really specific reasons why desert biome cannot have ores?

Your criticism is worded in a way that makes it clear it is some kind of irrational and obsessive hating on MTG.

No one is forcing you to use MTG, stop wasting your time like this and just ignore it.

I see you cannot help joining in with the stupid negativity.

and

Everything is done for good reason […] which you do not deserve me explaining […] and you deserve that reaction[…]

Is that an official statement by a core Minetest developer or is that your personal opinion?

Linuxdirk, please do not follow someone who is clearly upset and does not have too much control over what he says in anger, at least not in such a "combat" way...

I would ask paramat (an anyone else, as I guess this is more general) not to respond with hate and personal attacks to ordinary discussion, even if the first post is a rather emotional complaint about the lack of ores in some stones, which seems a bit childish. (According that making of a description of specific PR or proposal of specific ideas which then could be rewritten as PR is better solution for a post instead of emotinal shouting). Perhaps original poster whi starts this disscussion wanted to evoke emotions in the discussion - this is a method of disscussion too - but no one likes that social engineering and politicians are painfully abusing it.

Just because someone doesn't know how to answer a question doesn't mean that person have to curse the orginal poster, discuss his/her intentions - assuming they are inappropriate - and move the whole discussion away from its topics. Please, do not make a war against OP (or devs or anyone else). If you are annoyed by someone's post or attitudes, write it directly: "your statement annoys me" and then explain the reasons elegantly/precise and culturally/polite/appropriate. (You can also set up a separate thread "Why this user is annoying me so much", where you can explain everything to that user and together can work for some solutions.) Why heat up the atmosphere? There is no point in posting in anger. It happens sometimes, it also happens to me, but this is something that we should avoid.

I guess the same applies to every OP, it is not nice to assume in advance that devs are dishonest or inept or that the game made by someone is completely unplayable... We are moving away from the topic of this discussion - and the topic is clear: should we have any ores in the desert biome, close to the surface, or not, in the most basic config of MG. (We are not discussing whether Wuzzy is a parasite biting into your intestines and laying eggs in the brain.) Please behave! Give an example of rational discussion for children who read this forum. Children are to imitate professionals at work, not the other way.

[Sokomine]

Sandstone is a very nice building material, especially in the form of bricks. Good to have more of it available!

As to those biomes becoming more boring underground...I don't see what ought to stop MTG from getting new or existing ores down there. Quartz could be a very decorative building material and be found in there. Bones might also work. Corals perhaps? They're very decorative and hard to obtain for those of us that don't want to destroy nature. Realism isn't the most important part I'd say. Someone also has a decorative cow bones skeleton that ought to be found in deserts on the surface.

[Eran]

So the solution that will satisfy some complainers is to do PR for minetest game introducing few new blocks:
* coal in desert stone
* iron in desert stone
* copper in desert stone
and maybe
* coal in stoneblock
* gold in stoneblock
and then setting the appropriate min and max height of spawning of these ...

The End has an api that allows registering stone nodes along with ores. It's not suited for mtg, but it could propably be adapted.
https://notabug.org/NetherEran/The_End/ ... /rocks_api

[Hume2]

I found the commit message which is supposed to contain three good reasons:

Split underground biome to correspond to surface biomes
In preparation for biome-defined: dungeon materials, cave liquids,
stone type, ores, decorations.
'_ocean' biomes now extend to y = -255 to be deeper than default
mgv5 oceans, and to create 'shallow underground biomes'.
Remove unnecessary biome lists for gravel and silver sand blob ores,
as those are already defined to only appear in default:stone.

Sorry, I see only one reason. Can you please help me?

My personal opinion: If the desert stone is going to be filled by a different kind of content, I don't mind. It would actually look nice if each biome had a different underground. Just please don't forget it ;)