You can also use an editor which shows you more that 80 characters per line :D"use an editor which allows you to jump between functions"
@Zughy: If you were one of the core dev, do you think that you could reinforce the team?
You can also use an editor which shows you more that 80 characters per line :D"use an editor which allows you to jump between functions"
But who in the right mind wants that?
Do you see the paradox? Having an editor which can search the definition is obvious but an editor which displays more than 80 chars per line is a huge problem.
I'm nowhere near having the core devs' knowledge, I couldn't reinforce anything even if I wanted right now. The best thing I could do is being a moderator on the forum as I open it every day and I report as much as I can (also I know 4 languages, so I can help also where some other admins can't), but:
What's with all the ad-hominem attacks of the core devs? Face it: the core devs spend a lot of their time doing something that is completely for others. And now you're telling them to go redo the whole minetest engine because some people can't understand the code, and then blaming them for these people leaving? <insert Hume2's signature here>
Organization is in the eyes of the beholder. Look at it this way: We have all our PRs and issues in one place and many collaborators and a few devs to chat about them and get them fixed/merged/closed. That's organization. What isn't organization is this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9989 ;) Secondly, we do have milestones, as you mentioned. But the features of future versions - it doesn't work that way in Open Source unless you have some super-coder. It works that way in games where you have hundreds of paid developers and they get everyone excited about new features the next versions will bring. <insert Hume2's signature here>Zughy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 13:252) You're terribly disorganised. Like, for real. Wuzzy spent enough words about it, so let's keep the perspective from an external point of view only: 160+ PR, 950+ issues, milestones saying nothing about priorities. What are we going to see in 5.4.0? Or in 5.5.0? Will there actually be one or it'll go directly to 6.0.0? Where is the roadmap? The short answer is: there is none. Sure, there is a document saying MT goal is to be as generic and optimised as possible, but that's it. What happens right now is "huh, this seems important. Yeah, let's add it to the next release... for now". The end.
MTG is meant to be a base-game that mods are put on. Yes, I agree, its not a game. But that doesn't mean we can't play it. (I did in singleplayer for quite a while, looking for diamonds and making underground railways and farms mostly - before trying out servers) Maybe the devs could be wasting their time with MTG, but it is the base game and the silent majority/minority would complain a lot if they stopped developing it or took it down. (besides, the latter would break almost every mod :D)Zughy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 13:253) Some of you lack focus, massively wasting time and energies. I can't stress this enough, starting from MTG. You're complaining you don't have enough dev time, yet you keep developing and supporting a modding base advertised as a (horrible) game. I'm sorry if someone might feel offended, but that's what MTG looks like (have a look at the survey, that's not me saying it).
Nothing against rubenwardy, but I think the other core devs have useful opinions, make useful PRs, work with people to try to understand/fix issues, and try to get things merged (including minetest-mods and MTG), as well as Ruben.Zughy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 13:25But let's remain on topic: there is, what, 4 of you? 5? Start cleaning that huge mess that are MT issues, because it looks evident you can't support both the engine and the game, so why keep bothering? Also, rubenwardy is actively following more projects than three normal persons put together.
So ... you're attacking someone when you've never been in their shoes. And you don't even want to be in their shoes - this is likely because their work is something that a large community is watching and analysing. This is akin to slamming a baseball manager for doing something dumb, when you have absolutely no experience with baseball or managing a baseball team. Hindsight is always 20/20 ;)Zughy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 13:25I'm nowhere near having the core devs' knowledge, I couldn't reinforce anything even if I wanted right now. The best thing I could do is being a moderator on the forum as I open it every day and I report as much as I can (also I know 4 languages, so I can help also where some other admins can't)
Wait what? I asked to write a documentation, I didn't mention redoing the engine at allAnd now you're telling them to go redo the whole minetest engine
Last time I checked I did too. Maybe you skipped the part about being a volunteer: read again. Also, that's not an excuse to do something badlythe core devs spend a lot of their time doing something that is completely for others
Please show meSecondly, we do have milestones, as you mentioned.
This sounds like an excuseit doesn't work that way in Open Source unless you have some super-coder
Last time I checked the one whose bugs wouldn't have been noticed if Clobber hadn't insist for his PR (creating a few problems in the 5.3.0) was me. Also, it's pretty hypocrite to say when you're shitting me with the Hume2's signatureIf you want development done faster, attacking core devs won't help a thing
Yeah, me neither. I waited 3 days before posting this thing. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have done it, trust meIf they didn't care about minetest, they wouldn't be here
I've never stated I'm not: their work is admirable. I stated they're doing it badly, both for them and for people who want to help. So if they ask me how to improve it, I'm entitled to share my opinionsso be grateful they are spending their free time working to further FOSS and Minetest
No, this is about being realistic. If both my C++ and my MT engine knowledge is poor, why would I even want to be in their shoes? For what, for creating some mess because I don't understand basically anything? Because I want to be a leader? Yeah, no thanksyou're attacking someone when you've never been in their shoes. And you don't even want to be in their shoes
I'm criticising their managing skills explaining them why they won't find any new help and why this thing will get worse, I'm not criticising their coding skills. And I definitely have experience with the former (EDIT: I wrote "latter", my bad). Also, this is illogic: it's like saying art critics aren't entitled to criticise any artist till they don't reach the artist level. Like, uhm, no?when you have absolutely no experience
You said the code was confusing. If it is true as you say, it will mean huge code revisions will have to be made before a documentation can be made that makes sense.
Most of us are volunteers, Zughy, including myself (not for minetest though). It doesn't mean we are automagically granted the audacity to dumb-down other volunteers. Sorry :)
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestones
Not quite, because I'd only be making an 'excuse' if I was a core dev defending myself.
ClobberXD is not a core dev, btw. O_oLast time I checked the one whose bugs wouldn't have been noticed if Clobber hadn't insist for his PR (creating a few problems in the 5.3.0) was me. Also, it's pretty hypocrite to say when you're shitting me with the Hume2's signature
Good to know.Yeah, me neither. I waited 3 days before posting this thing. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have done it, trust me
I've never stated I'm not: their work is admirable. I stated they're doing it badly, both for them and for people who want to help. So if they ask me how to improve it, I'm entitled to share my opinions
Hmm, so you're admitting you would make a mess of it and you also admit to your MT engine knowledge being poor. However, you also think your opinions will make minetest better. o_ONo, this is about being realistic. If both my C++ and my MT engine knowledge is poor, why would I even want to be in their shoes? For what, for creating some mess because I don't understand basically anything? Because I want to be a leader? Yeah, no thanks
Again, you can criticize all you want. The validity of your 'arguments' is what is being questioned.I'm criticising their managing skills explaining them why they won't find any new help and why this thing will get worse, I'm not criticising their coding skills. And I definitely have experience with the latter. Also, this is illogic: it's like saying art critiques aren't entitled to criticise any artist till they don't reach the artist level. Like, uhm, no?when you have absolutely no experience
Yes, and it's true. It's not like your rant isn't justified or not accurate, but the question remains.Zughy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 13:25When I expressed my disappointment for the PR system, sfan5 answered me with the same old refrain of "it's disappointing [...] but how do you want to fix the issue of dev time?"
If you look at https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... its/master you will see that no significant amount of developer time has gone into minetest_game since 5.2.0 was released, it's mostly simple fixes and PRs prepared by other contributors.
There are 11 coredevs of which 6 are long-term inactive, so that indeed leaves 4-5 who spend some of their free time on (primarily) the engine.
And you shouldn't, the system MT has got right now is perfect, because to err is human. I mean, in the PR erred 4 of us
This is partially my bad, as I've been having a sketch of a main menu idea in my rucksack for weeks and I keep postponing it
I'd really like to help you, but I must ask: can we (community) expect anything of what discussed here (starting from the fist post) to be taken in consideration or things will just keep going as usual? In a way or another, we tried answering the "one million dollar question", but again the final decision is and it will always be yours
In 2016, it was said that the chance of a game being approved in GSOC (-ialism :D) is 1:7. I don't know how it is now but it's definitely not better. Also note that they want to know a lot of personal data and I don't know how many devs would like to offer them.
1000 for developers: Damn, too much work. Better spend my dev time on things I’m interested in instead of working on those PRs, I can’t bring the number down significantly so I don’t try to bring it down at all because it frustrates me.
I understand that, but my vision is different. I think that "There are too many PRs" is not a problem at all.Linuxdirk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:041000 for developers: Damn, too much work. Better spend my dev time on things I’m interested in instead of working on those PRs, I can’t bring the number down significantly so I don’t try to bring it down at all because it frustrates me.
1000 for contributors: Wow, 1000 PRs, they seem not to care about PRs so I guess I just fix the code for myself or just file a PR and do not care anymore because obviously no-one works on the PRs.
10 for developers: Just 10 PRs, this can be done quite easily. Everyone of us takes one PR to implement or decide on not implementing it. If I take just one of them I lowered the amount of PRs by 10%, this feels good and I like working like this.
10 for contributors: Wow, just 10 PRs, they know how to handle stuff and I’ll happily file my PR and actively help implementing it because 10 PRs are not that much, so devs will check my PR very soon.
Fixedruns wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:164) That the developers get along better, right now they don't support each other or collaborate with each other at all. From time to time, quarrels and rivalries arise. There are many personal differences. I meant as far as the Minetest vision is concerned. Now you don't see a team, but independent entities and that each one goes to its own.
the point of this is core devs not having enough dev time. If you bring more bureaucracy, it won't do much good. It's basically the summary of this
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