Minetest radical graphical rework

[Zughy]

Hey there, this will be a long journey - kind of. What are we talking about? About this and this.

This is of course nothing official, it's just my take. I'm a freelancer pixel artist aand.. let's begin (?)

GUI
So, first of all let's talk about the one following us around for the whole engine: the GUI. As Wuzzy suggested, we have 9-slice images, so why shouldn't we use them? We have one problem though: how can we design a GUI which doesn't resemble any specific game, but, on the contrary, an engine? These are my two suggestions:

The first one uses the cubes children usually play with (or at least, I guess so?), to learn how to make words, or just to make some tower and tickle their creativity. On Minetest people don't learn how to read, but for sure learn how to build any kind of stuff - code or actual buildings. The second one, which is actually the one I prefer, is made with cubes which are pretty basic: grass/dirt, water and stone. Less details, more focus on the top right corner with some vivid colours and that's it.

This could fit well both as the pause/volume/keys/whatever menu and on the main menu. Speaking of which...

Main menu
So, the first thing people see is the main menu. Which is, right now... not good. I thought about sticking to a simple design and I was inspired by this.
First step (the logo is just copy-pasted, don't mind its quality):


What we have here is me opting for a classic main menu even if we're talking about a hybrid (engine/game), because few straightforward elements won't confound the user. Now, the words I used may not be right, but I challenge anyone to not understand which does what. In other words, it's kind of a landing page.

Great, but now it's kind of empty. And here again, anonymity kicks in - sigh. What background could suit without unbalancing the narrative toward this game or that game? Probably no one, so how about choosing a theme for the engine? I thought about creating just a pattern as background (kind of like the forum), or simply doing an illustration with an ethereal vibe. This is just a sketch, so I'd like to know your thoughts before continuing; basically, I used a heavy aerial perspective to avoid detailing things and the consequential de-anonymisation, playing just with silhouettes





I want to specify I have sketches on paper about the other sections too, it's kind of well planned (or at least I hope so :D)

Let me know people :)

[sorcerykid]

I like that you went with a very basic landing for the main menu. That's been my hope all along for a redesign. I also find the idea of a silhouette backdrop very fitting for the Minetest engine. It keeps it generic and doesn't distract. Nice work.

[freshreplicant]

Wow, looks great! I like the 2nd suggestion in the GUI section, and the silhouette background is nice. It's a super clean design.

Only thing I was thinking is, maybe it could say 'Minetest' somewhere? Or are we trying to avoid confusion between Minetest and Minetest the Game?

[Sokomine]

Looks very nice! I like the clean design of the menu. The decorative elements around the menu box look nice and fitting.

[eyekay]

This looks very nice! I too like the second GUI. However, which font do you plan to use? Pixel or otherwise? I also like your background, maybe the different layers can move sideways at different speeds, like the old platformer games?

More importantly, how do you plan to make the singleplayer screen? Will the worlds of all games be listed together or will there be separate tabs for the separate games? If together, maybe there can be the icons of the games beside the text.

Even if the engine is neutral, the end users should be easily able to differentiate between the games.

[rubenwardy]

I like it. How do you see more complicated windows looking?

[celeron55]

Personally I'm a bit particular about menu design philosophies (structure wise), but visually this looks ok. Not simply a color theme. Unique enough, flashy enough, simple enough, flexible enough. It's a bit 90s, which is kind of cool these days.

Also, it's a simple enough concept to be applied anywhere, unlike some of the other menu ideas we've seen over the years.

Bring in the other sketches. I'd like to see how this translates to other menus.

@eyekay is on point with the question about fonts. What's the font you're using in those examples? Do you think it should be used? Is it nicely licensed?

[Zughy]

Only thing I was thinking is, maybe it could say 'Minetest' somewhere? Or are we trying to avoid confusion between Minetest and Minetest the Game?

That actually crossed my mind, but it brings up another problem here: Minetest has no official logotype. In short, a logo is usually made of a logomark (the image) and a logotype (the text). This is not the case as there is no text, so it'd mean designing that too - and it's not easy, if you don't consider picking a random font from your favourite vector graphics editor and just typing "Minetest".

I also like your background, maybe the different layers can move sideways at different speeds, like the old platformer games?

It can actually be very pleasing to see if the movement is subtle (or you can have the player playing around with the mouse, which moves the background accordingly) but I don't know the limitations of Irrlicht.

How do you see more complicated windows looking?

There is only one way to find out :D

What's the font you're using in those examples? Do you think it should be used? Is it nicely licensed?

The font is called Rainy Hearts and there is no license attached, it says "100% free". So I guess it's like saying public domain..?
I really like this font, because it fits with the pixel/voxel narrative but at the same time it doesn't look like something you could find on a terminal. So it's aesthetic AND on point. Maybe maybe the little arches on the "i" and "j" are too much.


On it to bring the other menus - it'd be pointless to detail the main menu background right now

[rubenwardy]

That actually crossed my mind, but it brings up another problem here: Minetest has no official logotype. In short, a logo is usually made of a logomark (the image) and a logotype (the text). This is not the case as there is no text, so it'd mean designing that too - and it's not easy, if you don't consider picking a random font from your favourite vector graphics editor and just typing "Minetest".

In promotional materials, I used the font on the website - Titillium Web - but I don't think that is an especially good font for it.

[eyekay]

That actually crossed my mind, but it brings up another problem here: Minetest has no official logotype. In short, a logo is usually made of a logomark (the image) and a logotype (the text). This is not the case as there is no text, so it'd mean designing that too - and it's not easy, if you don't consider picking a random font from your favourite vector graphics editor and just typing "Minetest".

What about the Minetest logo in the settings and server menu etc.? The stone bricks one

[Zughy]

So here I am, I'm right back at it again, just like I've al... Ahem

This time I took inspiration from this, the Mini SNES menu. Of course what it follows it doesn't match the icons of the actual games


Wait, where are worlds and their settings?
The idea is to click/press enter one more time on the game you'd like to play. It'll then show a separate window

Isn't it too many clicks?
Well, if the engine remembers your last selected game, world and settings, all it takes is pressing enter three times: not even one second if you're fast :D But sure, if this is not enough, in the main menu it might appear the last cartridge you played with as a shortcut, but I still think it's faster pressing enter three times and this one is quite unnecessary

So a few things about it:
1) I made very generic cartridges, using just the grip on the side to convey the idea. I think they're kind of cool to stay in the 90s vibe;
2) I don't know if Irrlicht can actually animate the scrolling between a cartridge and another. Worst case scenario, there is no animation and it changes instantly. Same for the icons;
3) I tried to keep what's already inside in the games menu folders: the icon is applied on the bottom bar, while the overlay is inside the cartridge. The header is gone, because.. well, is it rude if I say I don't generally trust developers aesthetic? If this is a problem, though, my standardised header can be removed and changed with the actual headers;
4) Since ruben implemented content flags on ContentDB, I thought it'd be kind of cool to have them featured inside the cartridge itself. Plus an indicator telling the player whether the game is made more for a multiplayer experience or not;
5) The little "i" on the top of the selected cartridge stands for "information". I don't have a design yet, but I think it'd be nice to show what's the game about (the "description") and a link to its repo
6) The cartridge on the right, the one with the box, should be a shortcut to the customisation page where players can download games. This could be particularly useful when/if MTG isn't shipped by default anymore, as it doesn't leave the player disoriented. The drawing is mine but it's just a sketch;
7) There is a filter bar below the bottom bar, in case players have too many games and they're looking for something specific. I specified "and press enter" as I guess it won't be that lightweight if at every key it updates the formspec (even if I must say, that's a pretty annoying limitation);
8) As you can see, there are no teeny tiny cubes here. Basically because it's all a giant formspec, with buttons and images;
9) I don't know exactly how formspec focus works, but the idea is to be able to change game with the left and right arrow keys. On the contrary, if a player types something in, it'll directly appears in the search bar (but I guess it's kind of a double focus so it won't work..?);
10) Now that I think about it, it may be a good idea to feature a "go back" button somewhere


@eyekay: see #3

[freshreplicant]

Again, I think this looks pretty great, neat ideas too about including version numbers and other information from contendb.

I'm not 100% gone on the exact shape of those cartridges, but I like the layout idea.

7) There is a filter bar below the bottom bar, in case players have too many games and they're looking for something specific. I specified "and press enter" as I guess it won't be that lightweight if at every key it updates the formspec (even if I must say, that's a pretty annoying limitation);


@eyekay: see #3

Just wondering, besides the filter below it, what is the bottom bar for? I couldn't quite make it out in the mockup.

Overall, I really hope your menu ideas make it into the game in some capacity.

[eyekay]

Aaaahhh... Perhaps it is due to the placeholder graphics, but I feel that the menu is no longer related in any way to the actual games- which are lacking in details. Tell me, can you imagine a menu like this for Minetest Game?

Btw, if a working preview of this menu could be made - either in actual Minetest, or mock-up - it will be very useful.

[Zughy]

Just wondering, besides the filter below it, what is the bottom bar for? I couldn't quite make it out in the mockup.

Basically it was me trying to keep the game icons alive and to balance the general picture

Aaaahhh... Perhaps it is due to the placeholder graphics, but I feel that the menu is no longer related in any way to the actual games- which are lacking in details. Tell me, can you imagine a menu like this for Minetest Game?

Well, that should be up to the game creators :D for instance, right now NodeCore has a pretty basic texture as a background buuut... it doesn't mean it can't be improved :) I think in this way the background is more highlighted and people may actually care to create one which is not just a simple screenshot (ie Mineclone2)

[freshreplicant]

Just wondering, besides the filter below it, what is the bottom bar for? I couldn't quite make it out in the mockup.

Basically it was me trying to keep the game icons alive and to balance the general picture

Perhaps the icons now on the lower bar could be incorporated into the actual cartridges? It's hard for me to tell in an non-interactive menu, but I feel like it could be confusing trying to figure out which bar to watch. I do see how it balances the overall layout though!

My only minor criticism about the aesthetic of the game selection screen would be that maybe it's a tiny bit too inspired by classic consoles, especially with the cartridges. I don't feel like classic consoles games are a parallel for the majority of the Minetest engine based games, or for MTG. Your inclusion of the 'block' aesthetic in the main screen on the other hand makes total sense. Please don't take my critique to heart though, just want to stoke the fire of the discussion a bit!

Would love to see more mock-ups for the other sections. I'm just a random community member, for what it's worth, but it'd be great to at least see a version of your main menu screen implemented.

[Zughy]

Just wondering, besides the filter below it, what is the bottom bar for? I couldn't quite make it out in the mockup.

Basically it was me trying to keep the game icons alive and to balance the general picture

Perhaps the icons now on the lower bar could be incorporated into the actual cartridges? It's hard for me to tell in an non-interactive menu, but I feel like it could be confusing trying to figure out which bar to watch. I do see how it balances the overall layout though!

My only minor criticism about the aesthetic of the game selection screen would be that maybe it's a tiny bit too inspired by classic consoles, especially with the cartridges. I don't feel like classic consoles games are a parallel for the majority of the Minetest engine based games, or for MTG. Your inclusion of the 'block' aesthetic in the main screen on the other hand makes total sense. Please don't take my critique to heart though, just want to stoke the fire of the discussion a bit!

Would love to see more mock-ups for the other sections. I'm just a random community member, for what it's worth, but it'd be great to at least see a version of your main menu screen implemented.

I waited a bit just to see if the singleplayer menu settled in my head or not, and I'm more and more convinced about what you said about that bottom bar, so I think it's time to make it disappear :)
I have an idea in mind, in these days I'll try to put it down. And I'll also try to question the cartridge system, potentially with another mock-up.

About critiques: motivated and non-insulting critiques are, to me, the best way to improve, and they actually show caring. So go for them, I'm more than happy to hear 'em :D (and they're definitely better than silence!)

[eyekay]

@freshreplicant exactly said what I was trying to say, fully agree.

Can someone maybe make a Html/css mock-up for the concept?

Also, we need to remember that however nice the menu looks, it needs to be implementable in the engine. If half of what I have read on these forums is true, the current GUI (formspecs? I'm not at all sure about the programming stuff, sorry) is pretty terrible...

[rubenwardy]

That design is implementable by the engine, as it currently is. Although, you may need incremental changes to make it act nicer

[freshreplicant]

And I'll also try to question the cartridge system, potentially with another mock-up.

After looking over Linuxdirk's 'Void' game project, I was thinking about the idea of some very basic nodes being 'essential' or 'core' to MT (I think he defines them as "stone, water, river water"). That had me thinking: what if instead of cartridges, you have very simple flat mockups of say 3-4 'elemental' node types as the 'cartridges'. So as you scroll left and right these nodes act like 'frames' for the game screenshot, icons, etc. So you'd scroll through, let's say "water", "stone", "air", "earth", etc. in a looping pattern. The art style for these 'node frames' themselves could look kind of like the cube decorations in your first post (but maybe flat and a bit larger). That would unify the style of the 'Main' and 'Game' menus somewhat.

@freshreplicant exactly said what I was trying to say, fully agree.

That design is implementable by the engine, as it currently is. Although, you may need incremental changes to make it act nicer

These are both great to hear.

[eyekay]

After looking over Linuxdirk's 'Void' game project, I was thinking about the idea of some very basic nodes being 'essential' or 'core' to MT (I think he defines them as "stone, water, river water"). That had me thinking: what if instead of cartridges, you have very simple flat mockups of say 3-4 'elemental' node types as the 'cartidges'. So as you scroll left and right these nodes act like 'frames' for the game screenshot, icons, etc. So you'd scroll through, let's say "water", "stone", "air", "earth", etc. in a looping pattern. The art style for these 'node frames' themselves could look kind of like the cube decorations in your first post (but maybe flat and a bit larger). That would unify the style of the 'Main' and 'Game' menus somewhat.

The first thing which comes to mind from this, not necessarily related: Anyone remembers the PC pokemon storage boxes in the old pokemon games? They had different backgrounds and were scrollable, and had nice backgrounds...

Which reminds me, the image @Zughy you sent doesn't have any arrows or scrollbars... I understand that we need to click on the game icon, but still arrows will be nice (and better than scrollbars, as you said Irrlicht may not be able to animate scrolling... I recall MCL2's scrollbars were removed as they didn't work, IDK if its an engine limitation)

[Zughy]

Heyo, today I've felt like continuing all this. The screenshot above is a completely different approach to the single player tab, so let me explain my reasoning:
first of all, I think MT is heading towards being independent from MTG, both because of the huge work done within the engine itself and modders creativity. This means in the future there will be (I hope) more solid games such as Mineclone 2 and NodeCore, providing a 360° experience to the players. We can actually see it happening already in the online component, where proper minigames feel like fresh air (I'm basically complimenting myself, sorry not sorry) and servers like Mibi propose a brand new approach. Why am I saying all this? Because subgames (something usually derived from default or MTG in general) have more tools and people to increase the chances to start producing games (something independent). So, let's treat them properly!

Premise: 90% of the graphic elements are not polished/detailed. Same goes for the text, it's not important now

The idea here is that, when players press "Singleplayer", the camera rapidly zoom in towards the silhouette in the corner, transitioning into a picture where that silhouette becomes more detailed and where the background and the header of the last game played appears (fade animation). Yes, I'm aware this can't be done now, but even without the animation would suffice for now. Also, I believe in v-rob.

As you can see, there is no world selection window. In fact, what you're looking at is a game landing page. Its role is to provide all the necessary information to the player, the possibility to change game (left/right arrow or just clicking the arrows on the sides) and the possibility to filter games more easily via the search bar situated in the bottom left corner.

In this case it tells us that 3 worlds have been created, that damage and creative are enabled and that is a 1 player only kind of game (more about this below). It also tells us in the corner of the blue box that it runs on 5.3+ and that we fall in that release (otherwise it'd be red-ish), and that an update is available (the "New!" button). Just below the box, on the left we have CDB warning flags, communicating us that the game includes drugs, gore and violence (things Final Fantasy IX doesn't have. Also, chill whilst you go through this post :D). Lastly, if we want more information, there is the info button on the right, followed by the uninstall button in case we grew tired of it.

"Wait, what happens if I decide to disable damage or creative in this game?"
Well, you can't. More precisely, this game doesn't allow you to do that. This is what Wuzzy proposed in this issue and I think he's right. In the end, in multiplayer, admins decide what users can and can't do. Why exactly, if I make an RPG like Final Fantasy, should I allow players to break the game (I mean, creative SHOULD be disabled in an RPG, but I'm too lazy to draw another icon right now)? Sure, people can still break it with mods, but it's kind of different. A lot of games such as Skyrim or GTA expanded the fun through mods made by the users, for instance the mod using My Little Pony models instead of dragons in the former. And that's ok. But providing a way to cheat - which is not fun, it gets boring quite easily - right in the main tab is a horse of a different colour. If a game then wants to enable both things, fine, there will be an icon telling you that you can switch, but again it's up to the game creator.

Back on the screenshot, by pressing start (enter? space? whatever but esc and left/right arrow?) the actual window with worlds will pop up. On the contrary, if someone wants to leave, there is an icon on the top right corner, or they can simply press "Esc".

Soooo: thoughts?

[philipbenr]

I haven't really read much into this thread, but I agree with the premise that Minetest and minetest_game are going separate ways. However, I will be frank, I am not a big fan of the heavier interface that has a lot of animations and movement. I think that more clean, interface with good colors and iconography is generally much better than a flashy menu. While well directed animations can really easily emphasize the parts of the menu, it sometimes is jarring for users and makes things less clear.

I also think that what you currently have does not advertise what Minetest is really about, and seems to fit more in line with something like Stardew Valley or Pokemon maybe? I do like the pixel art idea, but it is hard to say anything with the Final Fantasy still being up there.

-----

I think in terms of branding, I think minetest_game should index more heavily into the pixel art theme, looking like the Minecraft-esque sandbox game that it is. I think that Minetest engine / launcher / client in general on the other hand should instead move to a more flat / industrial / less gamer style, as I think it would suit it better.

Regardless of personal preference towards theme, I think that the most important thing would be creating a style guide for Minetest / minetest_game. Creating a set of guidelines for a cohesive brand really makes it easier to do basically everything in terms of designing. This is something that probably would have to be done with / by whoever is officially working on the main menu reword (Rubenwardy, v-rob, etc.) as they are the ones that have a final say. There is a lot more that goes into designing UIs and UXs, but a style guide is one of the more useful parts for a project like this IMO.

Personally, I think a rebrand would help it out a lot, but that's wishful thinking.

[Giov4]

I think that Minetest engine / launcher / client in general on the other hand should instead move to a more flat / industrial / less gamer style, as I think it would suit it better.

I don't agree: Minetest is a voxel engine, that's basically like a 3d pixel, and most of its textures are in pixel art, so I think this style fits perfectly; something flat and industrial could lead to an anonymous and boring design, which is not the best thing for an already niche engine.

[Zughy]

a lot of animations and movement

Sure, but I'd like to underline that there is just one animation at the moment

I also think that what you currently have does not advertise what Minetest is really about

The Pandora's box has been opened: what's Minetest really about?

and seems to fit more in line with something like Stardew Valley or Pokemon maybe?

I mean, look at Minecraft user base and the huge range of age of Pokémon players, or the general success of Stardew Valley: it doesn't seem that bad if you ask me

I think that Minetest engine / launcher / client in general on the other hand should instead move to a more flat / industrial / less gamer style

Minetest is a hybrid. You can't compile independent launchers as you do in Godot or Unity, yet you can't call it a game because it allows you to create different games. It's all in one. This means that the client should be appealing, not what is right now, i.e. neglected (this is me avoiding insulting it). Also, according to the top texture packs, people seem to appreciate the pixelated style, which is indeed an intrinsic characteristic of voxel games. Pixel art is not out of place, vector graphic is (ironically, the current one)

I think that the most important thing would be creating a style guide for Minetest

No. No, no, no, no. Don't anyone try to theorise art with endless conversations nitpicking this and that BEFORE having an actual creation to base your critiques on. This is not how it works. "But we won't". Really? 1, 2

[runs]

Having pointless discussions that lead nowhere... As Mineest always, and this's been two years now... The worst thing is that it wastes the time of graphic designers, for nothing.

What should be done in my humble opinion is:

Firstly set the direction of change.

1) A Minetest Classical aproach
2) A radical change.

If 1) Let rubenwardy continue with his proposals. Since it follows the classic Minetest style (website and ContentDB). As someone said above, the final decision will be his and four more cats, the usual ones, come on. I'm not saying it's bad design at all, I love ContentDb. It is classic / gray-black-neutral / standard / does not displease many / commitment / does not break much with what is already there ... in the good sense of words.

If you follow this path hopefully with another two or three years of sterile discussions you will come out ahead. LOL.

If 2) then:
- Make a consensus memo on the broad lines of change.
- Make a closed "contest" with 3 or 5 real proposals asked to solvent and consensual artists.
- Establish another memorandum to evaluate the proposals.
- That a small committee of 3 or 5 "wise" people discard one by one and at the end leave one.

If you follow this path something original will come out. Many will be disappointed and others will love it too. But it will have personality. Like everything else in Minetest this would take two or three years.

This is my vision, the rest is to spend over 5-6 years "wasting time" and wasting people's time.