Suggestion to avoid destruction of house on public server

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Fishkilleur
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Suggestion to avoid destruction of house on public server

by Fishkilleur » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:16

To avoid destruction of house on public server : to define private areas with barriers such.
In which only the only ones that can break and change into cubes and we are the admin.
Areas would have a limited depth and width.
 

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Calinou
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by Calinou » Wed Aug 03, 2011 15:10

Yeah, like WorldGuard... and Chests/Furnaces would be protected inside too. I think this should be included in the vanilla server program, unlike Minecraft.
 

No-Half-Measures
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by No-Half-Measures » Wed Aug 03, 2011 16:01

Well what you are suggesting is nice but Requires and Admin to-do it, Because in all seriousness players could abuse the use of this. This takes allot of Admin power at the end of the Day how ever My a Cel have already had a little discussion on this kinda matter.


No-Half-Measures wrote:
celeron55 wrote:It might be possible to implement a history system which would allow an admin to select an area and ask the server to revert that back a certain amount of time. But that is not very high on the priority list.


That or Per Block Permissions as such so.

- World = Destroyable by anyone
- Player blocks = Destroyable by only that Player (And Admin's OFC)
-- This could also works a groups too so invite a Player into somewhat of a group so that they can destroy each others block for say group builds and such.


There many of way really that it could be handeled
 

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by Staffs » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:12

I like teh idea of Per block system !
I love mods :D
 

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by bcmpinc » Fri Aug 05, 2011 17:43

I believe that a revision system (like the one wikipedia uses against vandalism) would work much better. Locking can cause some problems for normal users, which I mentioned in the '[Kray's server] List of untrusted players' thread:

Locking areas for specific players has a few disadvantages. For example, abandoned areas can not be adopted by other players; players can get stuck in areas owned by other players; (...) So instead of disabling the possibility of grieving, we should look for a way to nullify its impact. If, for example, the map storage is revision based, you can just walk into your recently grieved house, put down your time-traveling device and *poof* everything is back to normal.
 

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by Calinou » Fri Aug 05, 2011 18:23

Making it revision-based would require huge harddrives. Map on Kray's server is already 7GB.
 

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by No-Half-Measures » Fri Aug 05, 2011 18:52

bcmpinc wrote:
Locking areas for specific players has a few disadvantages. For example, abandoned areas can not be adopted by other players; players can get stuck in areas owned by other players; (...) So instead of disabling the possibility of grieving, we should look for a way to nullify its impact. If, for example, the map storage is revision based, you can just walk into your recently grieved house, put down your time-traveling device and *poof* everything is back to normal.



Problem #1:

Greifing doe not only effect Players it Effects the Servers Rep and First Impressions on a Player. Now if players builds stuff relatively close to Spawn and then becomes Inactive and not seen for a while if a greifer would to destroy stuff near spawn and with the user to whom built it inactive no restoration will happen. Thus new players coming to the server will first see Greifed buildings around them and will more than likely think "Well this server is easy for greifers to ruin let go to a different server".

Problem #2:

So i would gues this is chunk based? Chuncks are16x16 in size i relive or what ever the chunk size really doesn't matter. What does is not All builds will be small so a fair few chunks will have to be restored now there several issues inside this one issue.

- Issue 1
Chunk loading/restoring is fine but some players builds could be super huge in height, depth and width. Now chucks also have a hight to them the same as Width and Depth so as an example 16x16x16. Now say a users build is 160x160 now thats 10 chucks in width and depth so high is going to have to be 10chunks heigh in restoring chunks too. So total that's 1000 chunks that's a huge load for a server to restore. A counter could be smaller amount of chunks restoring. Thats more work for they player to have to move to right area's to restore their huge build that was greifed.

-Issue 2
So instead block based player restoring i hear you say? Well that's more load heavy even with allowing users to define the size of area to restore. The problem is essentially that same as the last.

Problem #3:

I'm not quiet sure how this method would work 100% but, If a greifer came on they could essentially use this to redo their greifing actions they previously did could they not?

Problem #4:
Calinou wrote:Making it revision-based would require huge harddrives. Map on Kray's server is already 7GB.



There are probably countless more problems with Revision based build restoring thus the same with Permission based area's/blocks. However on server bandwidth/load revision based restoring isn't the way if your trying to keep servers bandwidth and load usage down.


bcmpinc wrote:Also, some players also don't like their creations to be modified "mercilessly" in a positive way. If that's the case, you picked the wrong game. Minetest is open source and it's kind of the idea that other people can modify it mercilessly. We shouldn't be denying that right in-game.


Yes Modifying peoples builds is nice if its helping improve it but Destroying and filling the place with random blocks is unneeded. Besides the polite thing to-do is ask if a player minds you making some improvements to their build not going ahead and doing the changes regardless. You wouldn't walk into a shop without permission and start moving shelves and equipment around just because you think it would improve it would you.
Like I previously said Greing areas effect a player first impression on a server which effects player coming on to that server due to receiving bad comments about them passed around players.
Last edited by No-Half-Measures on Fri Aug 05, 2011 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by kryyss » Fri Aug 05, 2011 21:43

what about this idea :

1 - chunk restoration for a defined area around the spawn... (the one most likely to be grieffed by newcomers)

2 - no flying mode for the new players, until they have spent a minimum hours in game (4-5 hours... to be defined)

3 - it's up to the "installed" players to build some nice things in the spawn area
to "showcase" the server and then build their beloved hometowns far away from the spawn...

not a magical solution but, in my opinion would solve a lot of current problems....

(sorry for my bad english (french powa !) )
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by No-Half-Measures » Fri Aug 05, 2011 22:03

kryyss wrote:1 - chunk restoration for a defined area around the spawn... (the one most likely to be grieffed by newcomers)


Or just Spawn Area Protection? Like Minecraft you can define an area around spawn to which can't be modified unless OP. With Minetest it could be the Privs Flag or a New Flag.

kryyss wrote:2 - no flying mode for the new players, until they have spent a minimum hours in game (4-5 hours... to be defined)


Or
- Noclip/Fly Is creative Only
Or
- Noclip/Fly requires having a new flag called Fly or noclip

kryyss wrote:3 - it's up to the "installed" players to build some nice things in the spawn area
to "showcase" the server and then build their beloved hometowns far away from the spawn...

not a magical solution but, in my opinion would solve a lot of current problems....

(sorry for my bad english (french powa !) )


Yeah that's much to what i do, i teleport myself a fair distance away and build around there. less chance of being greifed then.
 

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by Thantos » Fri Aug 05, 2011 22:31

why not simply do what other games do, a housing system, make specific areas owned by players and those players are the only ones allowed to place/destroy blocks or activate chest/furnace/etc. that way we can keep our stuff safe.

The areas should be of fixed sizes such as 15, 20 and 30 blocks in all directions, now to keep this "private space (or house)" you must make a weekly/monthly payment which is automaticly taken from your inventory (like 100-500 Mese/Gold/Coins a month) so only active players keep such places, only 1 house per player.

This "houses" would only be near a spawn point (this brings another sugestion, to make different cities each with its own spawn point, you can change in which city you spawn talking to a NPC) so a city could have its own set of housing space, even themed cities, wood based buildings, stone based buildings, etc.

That way we can make our home without fear of being trashed and at the same time we own a place to safely store goods while keeping the freedom to modify the rest of the world. Plus this way we wouldn't need much admin intervention, it is possible to make it an automatic process with a couple of NPCs.
Last edited by Thantos on Fri Aug 05, 2011 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by No-Half-Measures » Fri Aug 05, 2011 23:00

There's a New Feature so i been told for Chests, Not say what as i don't know if its true and i don't want to ruin the surprise if it is true.

Though you idea Aims more towards RP. There is Creative mode and you suggestion doesn't cater for that.
Nice idea but doesn't cater for all modes.
 

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by Heinrich » Sat Aug 06, 2011 13:15

kryyss wrote:3 - it's up to the "installed" players to build some nice things in the spawn area
to "showcase" the server and then build their beloved hometowns far away from the spawn...


For me the whole point of building on a public server is to show my stuff. If I build great things in a hidden far out location only reachable by cheating or walking for three hours then I could as wall do it on my private local server and post some screenshots.
 

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by kryyss » Sat Aug 06, 2011 13:54

No-Half-Measures wrote:Or just Spawn Area Protection? Like Minecraft you can define an area around spawn to which can't be modified unless OP. With Minetest it could be the Privs Flag or a New Flag.


yes, an Area protection over spawn would be a good thing but, I think, chunk restoration is better...

why ? because I think most of the common grieffing comes from :

20% of newcomers that mess things by descovering the gameplay
and who don't know how to fix what they've done...

80% of 14 years old Kevin who think it's cool to destroy things (let's call him "Stoopid")

now imagine :
"Stoopid" logs in and start trying messin' around...
with area protection he can't do anything...
He can't stand it, so he stay longer on the server,
untill he find a place that could be destroyed...

but with chunk restoration around the spawn, Stoopid is happy, he feel like a though guy
for he have ruined this house...
and then start searching another server to destroy....

each 24h, the spawn point will automaticly be restored :-)


No-Half-Measures wrote:Or
- Noclip/Fly Is creative Only


I don't think people on Kray's server will be very happy with that solution !

No-Half-Measures wrote:Or
- Noclip/Fly requires having a new flag called Fly or noclip


yes for the new flag.
I don't know how it works, but I suppose there is an easy way for the activation of fly flag
to be automated... (perhaps the time connection of each player allready appear on server's logfile ?)

No-Half-Measures wrote:
kryyss wrote:3 - it's up to the "installed" players to build some nice things in the spawn area
to "showcase" the server and then build their beloved hometowns far away from the spawn...

not a magical solution but, in my opinion would solve a lot of current problems....

(sorry for my bad english (french powa !) )


Yeah that's much to what i do, i teleport myself a fair distance away and build around there. less chance of being greifed then.


this is what smart people do ! and with a new flag for flymode (first unactivated for newcommers) we should have a chance to build in peace

kryyss wrote:(sorry for my bad english (french powa !) )

again !
Last edited by kryyss on Sat Aug 06, 2011 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
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by kryyss » Sat Aug 06, 2011 13:58

Heinrich wrote:
kryyss wrote:3 - it's up to the "installed" players to build some nice things in the spawn area
to "showcase" the server and then build their beloved hometowns far away from the spawn...


For me the whole point of building on a public server is to show my stuff. If I build great things in a hidden far out location only reachable by cheating or walking for three hours then I could as wall do it on my private local server and post some screenshots.


that's why the spawn point buildings have to be protected, for newcommers to see your great work :-)

installed players will then be able to work together on a distant town...

and yes, the only solution against grieffers is a private server you build with your IRL friends...
sad but true
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by No-Half-Measures » Sat Aug 06, 2011 14:28

kryyss wrote:
No-Half-Measures wrote:Or just Spawn Area Protection? Like Minecraft you can define an area around spawn to which can't be modified unless OP. With Minetest it could be the Privs Flag or a New Flag.


yes, an Area protection over spawn would be a good thing but, I think, chunk restoration is better...

why ? because I think most of the common grieffing comes from :

20% of newcomers that mess things by descovering the gameplay
and who don't know how to fix what they've done...

80% of 14 years old Kevin who think it's cool to destroy things (let's call him "Stoopid")

now imagine :
"Stoopid" logs in and start trying messin' around...
with area protection he can't do anything...
He can't stand it, so he stay longer on the server,
untill he find a place that could be destroyed...

but with chunk restoration around the spawn, Stoopid is happy, he feel like a though guy
for he have ruined this house...
and then start searching another server to destroy....

each 24h, the spawn point will automaticly be restored :-)


True, but i had an incident on C55 Dev server were a player greifed a relative position of 4000 away from spawn yet there is plenty near and around spawn to greif, not that im suggesting they should but i think you see what i mean ^^
 

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by kryyss » Sat Aug 06, 2011 14:31

yes, for sure, we're just talking about reducing the probabilities...
(and thats why the flyflag would be helpfull)
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by Karlas » Sat Aug 06, 2011 16:35

Simple:

Build house and stuff far far away.But we want to be near people right?
It doesn't fell nice to be far away from others.So you tell your friend to come,then your friend invites some other guy and so on,and then 1 day boom your town/village/house gets destroyed.I don`t think anyone can solve this problem with griefers.You can ban them but they will come back.I guess we just have to get on with that.
 

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by No-Half-Measures » Sat Aug 06, 2011 17:49

Karlas wrote:So you tell your friend to come,then your friend invites some other guy and so on,and then 1 day boom your town/village/house gets destroyed.I don`t think anyone can solve this problem with griefers.You can ban them but they will come back.I guess we just have to get on with that.


Yeah that happened on C55 Dev server to my place just before the map reset. Now i'm just not telling anyone were I am.
 

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by hmmm » Thu Aug 18, 2011 03:19

My suggestion is add a feature kind of like a surveillance camera that can set up around an area. Players who have been greifed can ask the admin to add one to catch the greifer.

It wouldn't necessarily have to take a video. It could be something that records the names of players who have been within range of the area, how long they've been there, what they've added/removed from their inventory while in that specific area, etc. And, with enough evidence, find and ban the greifer.

I'm personally not a fan of preventing players from destroying blocks others have placed, since that could also be used as a form of greifing. e.g. Greifers could encase the spawn point in a cube.
 


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