[OFFLINE][hungry_games_plus] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Wuzzy » Sun Jul 12, 2015 06:16

I am not really happy about the chest refilling feature, I have many issues with it.

First, the game could now possibly go on forever.
Until now, the game was always guaranteed to end at some point because, even if players avoid fighting all the time, sooner or later one party *must* run out of food.

One particular example: Two players get stuck in a hole and can't fight. The game is still not a draw, basically it all boils down to which player has more food left. Hunger and thirst come now pretty fast, so the waiting time for the next round is not terribly high.

But now the game could potentionally go on forever in a rare situation where 2 players are stuck in a hole, but both players have access to chests. This means they could be provided with new food for a long time.
Another problem I see with chest refilling is that it really throws the game out of balance. There was already a certain amount of luck required in this game, because you never know where to find the diamond sword; you always had to kept moving. This change makes it worse, because it increases the luck element even further. If you are near an area with many chests and the timer is going to 0, all you have to do is waiting.

I also think the chest refill is done in a really dumb manner:
The chests are not actually refilled, but instead the chest contents are simply replaced; the previous content is gone. I really had expected the game would just add to the slots.
If you are in a chest formspec while the chest is refilled, the formspec breaks (you have to re-open the chest). Very annoying! (Maybe this is because the refill function also replaces the formspec as well? That should not be needed IMO).
Another thing: The chests should not get refilled right at the end of the grace period. The timer should only start at the end of the grace period, and only after that, the first refill happens. That's because at the end of the grace period, the game should get going and players should start fighting; refilling chests just gives them an incentive to loot even more chests ...

Frankly, I suggest to disable the chest refilling entirely until the worst issues have been fixed.
But even then, there are still those gameplay issues, so maybe it is best to keep it disabled unless you have better ideas for balancing. Clearly refilling food and armor is a bad idea, as it just further delays the end of the game.

Also, this particular server currently has a crazy amount of chests already.
I suggest to not refill chests at all especially on your particular server.

Another minor thing: It seems that hunger always comes faster than thirst. I think you meant to do it the other way around, right?

Oh, I also noticed this server has a mod which disallows the placement of ladders …
This is really annoying, if you don't want to have ladders, you should remove the crafting recipe, not just wait until the player crafts and places it and then remove it (and thereby stealing the player's resources).
The simple way would be to disable this mod; since there are no other placable nodes left (I guess), this mod seems pointless now.
The more sophisticated solution: Maybe some parameter does the trick? hungry_games.allow_ladders. If true, the crafting recipe for (wooden) ladders is active and ladders can be dug, if false, the crafting recipe is not registered in the first place and ladders can't be dug either. If you wish, I could code it for you.

One minor last thing: You should place a sign in the lobby saying that it is forbidden to spam and flood the chat. So that nobody can claim they haven't been warned. ;-)
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sun Jul 12, 2015 07:11

Wuzzy wrote:I am not really happy about the chest refilling feature, I have many issues with it.

First, the game could now possibly go on forever.
Until now, the game was always guaranteed to end at some point because, even if players avoid fighting all the time, sooner or later one party *must* run out of food.

One particular example: Two players get stuck in a hole and can't fight. The game is still not a draw, basically it all boils down to which player has more food left. Hunger and thirst come now pretty fast, so the waiting time for the next round is not terribly high.

But now the game could potentionally go on forever in a rare situation where 2 players are stuck in a hole, but both players have access to chests. This means they could be provided with new food for a long time.


There is the possibility that a game could go on for quite some time or even forever, and that is one of the flaws of my current implementation of chest refilling. I was thinking about this, and a feature that forces a draw after a certain period of time doesn't seem all that hard to implement, and a rather simple and effective fix for this, say maybe 10 minutes default. I'm also probably going to increase the interval at which chests are refilled. It is currently 2.5 minutes and I think that 3.5-4 minutes would be more appropriate.

Wuzzy wrote:I also think the chest refill is done in a really dumb manner:
The chests are not actually refilled, but instead the chest contents are simply replaced; the previous content is gone.


I agree that this isn't ideal. To refill all chests, I'm simply calling random_chests.refill, which seems to replace rather than add items to each chest. I'll have to take a look at and rework that function if this is to be fixed.

Wuzzy wrote:If you are in a chest formspec while the chest is refilled, the formspec breaks (you have to re-open the chest). Very annoying! (Maybe this is because the refill function also replaces the formspec as well? That should not be needed IMO).


This is due to the fact that chests are actually replaced rather than having their inventories modified. (https://github.com/GunshipPenguin/hungr ... ts.lua#L42).
This is also not ideal, and something that looks like it would be rather easy to fix, I'll get to the bottom of it in the next few days.

Wuzzy wrote:Another thing: The chests should not get refilled right at the end of the grace period. The timer should only start at the end of the grace period, and only after that, the first refill happens. That's because at the end of the grace period, the game should get going and players should start fighting; refilling chests just gives them an incentive to loot even more chests ...


As soon as I played an actual round, I didn't exactly like how this felt :P This is due to the fact that the code in engine.lua looked a bit more elegant to me this way, although looking at it now, it isn't the best. I'll fix this so that the timer starts after the grace period.

Wuzzy wrote:Oh, I also noticed this server has a mod which disallows the placement of ladders …
This is really annoying, if you don't want to have ladders, you should remove the crafting recipe, not just wait until the player crafts and places it and then remove it (and thereby stealing the player's resources).


This is due to the fact that I've disallowed the placement of ladders with my serveressentials mod, and didn't get around to reallowing placement after your recent PR. This has been fixed.

Wuzzy wrote:You should place a sign in the lobby saying that it is forbidden to spam and flood the chat. So that nobody can claim they haven't been warned. ;-)


Will do :)
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Wuzzy » Sun Jul 12, 2015 15:51

GunshipPenguin wrote:There is the possibility that a game could go on for quite some time or even forever, and that is one of the flaws of my current implementation of chest refilling. I was thinking about this, and a feature that forces a draw after a certain period of time doesn't seem all that hard to implement, and a rather simple and effective fix for this, say maybe 10 minutes default.


Hmm, just an automatic draw after 10 min could be really frustrating if it happens right in the middle of a fight.

I have a different idea: Sudden Death. After a fixed (preferably medium or long, should be longer than 10 min for big arenas) time after the end of the grace period, all food gets destroyed due to rotting, and no more food or armor is refilled into chests. It is also not possible to bottle new water anymore.
At this point, the game will either end due to combat, or definitely end after the maximum hunger/thirst time (whatever comes faster) (because there is nothing left to eat or drink), therefore guaranteeing a single game will not take longer than <grace period> + <Sudden Death timer> + <hunger/thirst timer>.

What do you think of this idea? (This question also goes to other people :-) )


Edit: This server is now extremely overpowered: There is an extremely high concentration of chests, plus, they get refilled over time. Eventually, everyone will be wearing a full mithril armor with a diamond sword.
Maybe its best to reduce the amount of chests (or just start a new map xD). IIRC all the chests are remains of players being allowed to craft and place them manually.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sun Jul 12, 2015 22:21

Ok, I've fixed most of the problems that Wuzzy pointed out.

Chests are now all emptied and then filled at the beginning of a match.
After the grace period is over, the countdown to a chest refill starts. Chests are now not refilled at the end of the grace period.
The default interval at which chests are refilled has been switched from 2.5 to 4 minutes.
When chests are refilled, their inventories are now not replaced, but added to.

I feel like 4 minutes is still too short an interval, I may make it 5 or 6 minutes.

Wuzzy wrote:
GunshipPenguin wrote:There is the possibility that a game could go on for quite some time or even forever, and that is one of the flaws of my current implementation of chest refilling. I was thinking about this, and a feature that forces a draw after a certain period of time doesn't seem all that hard to implement, and a rather simple and effective fix for this, say maybe 10 minutes default.


Hmm, just an automatic draw after 10 min could be really frustrating if it happens right in the middle of a fight.

I have a different idea: Sudden Death. After a fixed (preferably medium or long, should be longer than 10 min for big arenas) time after the end of the grace period, all food gets destroyed due to rotting, and no more food or armor is refilled into chests. It is also not possible to bottle new water anymore.
At this point, the game will either end due to combat, or definitely end after the maximum hunger/thirst time (whatever comes faster) (because there is nothing left to eat or drink), therefore guaranteeing a single game will not take longer than <grace period> + <Sudden Death timer> + <hunger/thirst timer>.

What do you think of this idea? (This question also goes to other people :-) )


The fact that a game could go on potentially forever is the only problem that I haven't fixed, and I like this sudden death type solution better than my automatic draw solution. I'll look into how I can implement it.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Wuzzy » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:19

Question to players: Would there be a huge resistance if sneaking and the sneak glitch were disabled on the Hungry Games?

Reasons for disabling this:
  • Sneaking while falling on nodeboxes (like snow) negates all fall damage
  • You probably don't really *need* the sneak glitch any
  • Sneaking also makes movement a bit too easy in some situations
  • Overall, sneaking and sneak glitch mess with the gameplay too much at the moment

If you wish, I could implement the code.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by horse_lover » Fri Jul 17, 2015 03:38

I don't really understand your third point. How does sneaking make movement easy? Do you mean that you can hang off a cliff without falling? My brain couldn't really process what you meant. :P
In my opinion the sneak glitch is useful for getting out of holes and such. But I guess it doesn't matter if it does get removed. Then its more supensful because it all goes down to whether you starve / thirst to death or someone comes and kills you.

EDIT: to my last statement about if you starve to death, if you have a chest with you you could keep going for a while so...
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Wuzzy » Fri Jul 17, 2015 04:50

Sneaking and the sneak glitch increases your movement options, and therefore making your movement easier overall.
It makes it possible to jump over 2 nodes, jump higher, fall deep without damage in some situations, and also sneak at edges.
I want to strip away all those movement options because IMO they make things too easy sometimes.

Note that I also want to remove normal sneaking, not just the sneak glitch, because it negates fall damage.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by horse_lover » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:38

I feel that, because you cannot create/place ladders anymore, the sneak glitch is the only way to get out of sticky situations like getting stuck in holes. Everything else I agree with, like you said fall deep without damage and hanging over edges. It makes the game too easy. But unless ladders get put back in, the sneak glitch IMO is useful for players. But as I said in my last post it would make the game more "supensful". If you are worried about people griefing the parkour with ladders at spawn, you could just add a simple protection mod, but make the protection uncraftable. Just my ideas though...
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Sat Aug 01, 2015 18:00

ok, some jerk got mad and called me a hacker because i got diamond swords and won.
He claimed that I was hacking because I was on PC and he was on Android. SERIOUSLY???
He said some bad words...
i.e. "F***" and he pm'ed me:
PM from Fabi:
F*** you nazi
He didn't bleep out the letters, btw
PLZ BAN HIM
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 19:37

programmingchicken wrote:ok, some jerk got mad and called me a hacker because i got diamond swords and won.
He claimed that I was hacking because I was on PC and he was on Android. SERIOUSLY???
He said some bad words...
i.e. "F***" and he pm'ed me:
PM from Fabi:
F*** you nazi
He didn't bleep out the letters, btw
PLZ BAN HIM


I don't have Xbans, or any other ban mod installed currently, so I can't ban players who are offline. I saw the PM you were referring to in the logs. If I see him on the server acting in this way again, I'll certainly take action.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Minetestforfun » Sat Aug 01, 2015 19:46

Hi,

MinetestForFun organisation.team had forked the HungryGame subgame. Our first add is a "kickafk" player mod wich named is [player_inactive], the kick time is set to 5minutes. Check our repository for more informations. (https://github.com/MinetestForFun/hungry_games)

We are going to fixed/improved many things in the next commits, hope you will like it ! :)

If you want to help us, don't hesitate to contact us on the forum (MP), in our IRC (irc.inchra.net#minetestforfun).
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Sat Aug 01, 2015 23:02

Minetestforfun wrote:Hi,

MinetestForFun organisation.team had forked the HungryGame subgame. Our first add is a "kickafk" player mod wich named is [player_inactive], the kick time is set to 5minutes. Check our repository for more informations. (https://github.com/MinetestForFun/hungry_games)

We are going to fixed/improved many things in the next commits, hope you will like it ! :)

If you want to help us, don't hesitate to contact us on the forum (MP), in our IRC (irc.inchra.net#minetestforfun).

You might want to relocate this into the official hungry_games topic.
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sun Aug 02, 2015 22:50

Minetestforfun wrote:Hi,

MinetestForFun organisation.team had forked the HungryGame subgame. Our first add is a "kickafk" player mod wich named is [player_inactive], the kick time is set to 5minutes. Check our repository for more informations. (https://github.com/MinetestForFun/hungry_games)

We are going to fixed/improved many things in the next commits, hope you will like it ! :)

If you want to help us, don't hesitate to contact us on the forum (MP), in our IRC (irc.inchra.net#minetestforfun).


Cool, have fun with it! What other changes are you planning on adding?

I haven't been adding much recently, but when 0.4.13 is released, I plan on updating all the default mods in my fork, as well as a few other minor changes I've been thinking about. I also plan on adding a larger, more interesting map to this server.

programmingchicken wrote:You might want to relocate this into the official hungry_games topic.


There's been a lot of discussion pertaining to my fork of hungry_games rather than my server on this topic. It's been suggested to me before that I create a new topic on the subgames forum for the subgame itself and I think that's something that I'll end up doing. Probably around the time 0.4.13 comes out and after I've merged all the default mods.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Mon Aug 03, 2015 02:14

GunshipPenguin wrote:
Minetestforfun wrote:Hi,

MinetestForFun organisation.team had forked the HungryGame subgame. Our first add is a "kickafk" player mod wich named is [player_inactive], the kick time is set to 5minutes. Check our repository for more informations. (https://github.com/MinetestForFun/hungry_games)

We are going to fixed/improved many things in the next commits, hope you will like it ! :)

If you want to help us, don't hesitate to contact us on the forum (MP), in our IRC (irc.inchra.net#minetestforfun).


Cool, have fun with it! What other changes are you planning on adding?

I haven't been adding much recently, but when 0.4.13 is released, I plan on updating all the default mods in my fork, as well as a few other minor changes I've been thinking about. I also plan on adding a larger, more interesting map to this server.

programmingchicken wrote:You might want to relocate this into the official hungry_games topic.


There's been a lot of discussion pertaining to my fork of hungry_games rather than my server on this topic. It's been suggested to me before that I create a new topic on the subgames forum for the subgame itself and I think that's something that I'll end up doing. Probably around the time 0.4.13 comes out and after I've merged all the default mods.


I think 13 won't come out, but 0.5.0. I think.
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Wuzzy » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:59

Yes, a new subgame thread would be really needed, because this fork got many changes and improvements over the weeks and other server operators already have started to use this code on their server. So this is no longer just about this single server anymore.
But I'd suggest to change the official game name (but not too much) if such a thread is created, to avoid confusion with the original Hungry Games.

Maybe “Hungry Games Plus”? “Hungry Games Deluxe”?. I don't know. xD
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Tue Aug 04, 2015 19:27

Wuzzy wrote:Yes, a new subgame thread would be really needed, because this fork got many changes and improvements over the weeks and other server operators already have started to use this code on their server. So this is no longer just about this single server anymore.
But I'd suggest to change the official game name (but not too much) if such a thread is created, to avoid confusion with the original Hungry Games.

Maybe “Hungry Games Plus”? “Hungry Games Deluxe”?. I don't know. xD

Hunger Games
Based on and uses lots of code from Hungry Games.
By GunshipPenguin.
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Wed Aug 05, 2015 20:38

programmingchicken wrote:Hunger Games
Based on and uses lots of code from Hungry Games.
By GunshipPenguin.


I originally thought that hunger games would be a decent name for my fork, but after a bit of thought, I decided against it. It would be confusing having one game called hunger games and one called hungry games. I like hungry_games_plus. People can look at that name and immediately recognize that it's an improved version of a subgame called hungry_games.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Thu Aug 06, 2015 00:33

imagine 24-hour hunger games
--build house--
--survive the night--
--SURVIVE THE OTHERS--
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Hybrid Dog » Thu Aug 06, 2015 08:39

programmingchicken wrote:imagine 24-hour hunger games
--build house--
--survive the night--
--SURVIVE THE OTHERS--

two people are there but not fully there
they wait 24 h
others come and leave
because they don't want to wait so long to play the game
but you could do /set time_speed 4217894721

‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪‮
‮‪
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by programmingchicken » Thu Aug 06, 2015 22:15

Hybrid Dog wrote:
programmingchicken wrote:imagine 24-hour hunger games
--build house--
--survive the night--
--SURVIVE THE OTHERS--

two people are there but not fully there
they wait 24 h
others come and leave
because they don't want to wait so long to play the game
but you could do /set time_speed 4217894721

AKA SHORT FACTIONS
and it's mostly for groups of friends who want to have fun.
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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Fri Aug 07, 2015 20:13

I'm going to be out of town until August 23rd (Going to Europe :D). If 0.4.13 is out when I return, I'll start to work on merging the latest minetest_game into hungry_games immediately, creating a thread for my fork of hungry_games, cleaning up a few other minor things in the subgame and changing the map on this server. I probably won't be on the server or forums while I'm away.
 

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Re: [0.4.12][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by Minetestforfun » Tue Aug 11, 2015 21:07

GunshipPenguin wrote:
Cool, have fun with it! What other changes are you planning on adding?

I haven't been adding much recently, but when 0.4.13 is released, I plan on updating all the default mods in my fork, as well as a few other minor changes I've been thinking about. I also plan on adding a larger, more interesting map to this server.


A lot of things(vote block, many tweaks in the inventory, new textures for armors/swords/bows, many debugs, removed many useless nodes/tools/items to keep the subgame lighter, fixs many usebugs, etc...) you need to read our commits (180+) to understand well our work => https://github.com/MinetestForFun/hungr ... its/master
Also, don't hesitate to join us on @irc.inchra.net#minetestforfun-dev to talk with our devs ;)
Last edited by Minetestforfun on Tue Aug 25, 2015 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: [0.4.13][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sun Aug 23, 2015 16:03

OK, I've merged most mods from the latest 0.4.13 tagged minetest_game into hungry_games and made some changes to node protection. I haven't pushed any of the commits to the github repo yet, I'm going to run them on the server for a day or two to make sure everything is stable, then do the push. I'll make a new thread for the hungry_games subgame after I've done the push.

The server map has been changed. The arena is much larger, and now includes a large snow biome, jungle and grassland. Several of the features in the new minetest_game should also add to gameplay.
 

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Re: [0.4.13][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by horse_lover » Thu Aug 27, 2015 18:05

Someone has gotten over the glass wall. I have no idea how, they didn't speak English. There were also lots of holes around, but they were blocked by trees and such. Just wanted to let you know...

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GunshipPenguin
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Re: [0.4.13][hungry_games] GunshipPenguin's Hunger Games Ser

by GunshipPenguin » Sat Aug 29, 2015 22:45

horse_lover wrote:Someone has gotten over the glass wall. I have no idea how, they didn't speak English. There were also lots of holes around, but they were blocked by trees and such. Just wanted to let you know...


The glass_arena mod that creates the arena wall is pretty buggy in my mind. I'm currently in the process of looking for a replacement for it.
 

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