Please make more games!

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paramat
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Re: Please make more games!

by paramat » Thu Dec 13, 2018 06:37

Xudo, i agree that contributions are best discussed first.
Last edited by paramat on Fri Dec 14, 2018 09:22, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Please make more games!

by jas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 07:41

I would like to point out that contributions to MTG are considered very strongly because MTG is a base game, meant to be expanded upon.

Speaking of MTG, I would like to see it use more engine features.
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Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Thu Dec 13, 2018 13:10

paramat wrote:Xudo,
MTG is here on GitHub https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game
I agree that contributions are best discussed first, you can do this by opening an issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues

There is a difference between "features must be discussed before implementation" and "feature should be implemented when discussion ends".
Some discussions have no definition of "end". For example medkits in CTF.

What about other points I have written in my post?
Is it clear when discussion about some feature is over and ready for development?
Is it clear which arguments in discussion are important for project and which are not?
 

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Re: Please make more games!

by paramat » Fri Dec 14, 2018 08:21

Xudo, you have a very extensive and precise list of requirements for you to contribute. Some of your requirements make good sense, some make no sense.
MTGame doesn't meet all your requirements and i don't know of any project that does. I think your requirements are excessive and over-demanding.

> I'm sure that there are more people that share same thoughts as me.

I've never known of anyone who has the same requirements.
 

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Re: Please make more games!

by TumeniNodes » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:37

Wuzzy wrote:
There is a desperate lack of artists in this community.

More or less, yes. I think this is also a political problem, mostly. Many, many artists simply do not share our values of freedom and just insist on their copyrights like everyone else.
It's much easier nowadays to find a programmer for a free software project than to find artists, especially skilled artists.
Maybe this is also simply a “marketing fail” of free software, many people think this only affects programmers (which is of course completely false).

The idea of freedom simply is foreign to most artists. The problem is not that there are not good artists, the problem is to convince them to work with us. =)


I realize the comment was made a while back. I meant to comment on it back then but got distracted then forgot :P

There are actually plenty of artists who, the idea of freedom is not foreign to.

A big part of the problem, regarding artists in the programming world is, they are actually not appreciated as much as some think or even say they are.
Sometimes an artist will contribute work to a project, only to have a programmer hack it to what they feel it needs to be. I have experienced this personally on another project a few years ago, and it really pissed me off.

Programmers tend to want to dictate to artists, and can at times be rather dismissive toward the amount of work an artist puts into a piece, simply because they can achieve something close with code, or even some image editing software using scripts and a few keystrokes.
A programmer would not like an artist telling them how to code or how it should look, so why do programmers not understand that, when they call for an artist, yet want the result to be what they feel it should be?

Programmers often tend to put their own vision before the artist as well, even after asking artists for help.
If you are going to recruit an artist for your project, then allow them to "do" the art, or they will lose interest of possibly get frustrated and stop contributing.
I am a fairly flexible artist but many are not... a flexible artist is a rare find.

Often times, artists are left out of the "Developer" title which can be an insult that many do not understand.

If you need an artist, and take one on... you need to allow them to direct the art, especially when it is a "free-time, volunteer" project.
An artist, just as anyone else, spends much of their time creating art they may not particularly be happy with, to earn money... when they create art outside of that aspect... they need to enjoy what they are doing, or they will go elsewhere.

And note that there is a difference (most often) between an "artist", and a graphic designer..., and often a programmer, makes a horrible graphic designer (whether they like to hear/admit it or not)

As for there not being as many "Libre" artists out in the "free" world... well, remember this..., there are far less jobs out there calling for an "artist", than there are for a programmer, and the pay rate is substantially different.
Being a "starving artist" is not just a phrase ; )
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Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 13:47

paramat wrote:Xudo, you have a very extensive and precise list of requirements for you to contribute. Some of your requirements make good sense, some make no sense.
MTGame doesn't meet all your requirements and i don't know of any project that does. I think your requirements are excessive and over-demanding.

Can you be more specific?
Having design document is not over-demanding requirement.
You know what you want to get in the end, right?
I want to see goals and values of developers community before I will do any work.

paramat wrote:I've never known of anyone who has the same requirements.

People probably won't bother with expressing their thoughts. They just "no, I am not interested".
How much people that do write their requirements do you know?
 

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Re: Please make more games!

by texmex » Fri Dec 14, 2018 17:56

Xudo wrote:Having design document is not over-demanding requirement.
You know what you want to get in the end, right?
I want to see goals and values of developers community before I will do any work.


That’s the crux with MTG: No one wants to express a vision for the game, therefore no game design document, hence little to no values nor goals. In fact it’s clearly stated from issue conversations that a plan is not even desirable. Which in itself is not ”wrong”, but it definitely makes it harder to rally certain types of contributors such as artists and designers.

Xude wrote:People probably won't bother with expressing their thoughts. They just "no, I am not interested".

This resonates with my experience as well.
 

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Re: Please make more games!

by Xudo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 18:52

If there is no vision, then it is not a problem. It could be developed just like the game itself by answering a list of questions.
First question is: Can you describe your target audience?
You can develop values and goals by analysing your audience.
Second question is: Why MTG is the only game, bundled with MT by default?
It is very possible, that audience is heterogeneous. Some features might be cool for players of one type of player, but bad for other.
 

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