MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

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MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by paramat » Wed Apr 11, 2018 01:51

Details https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2103

Bronze, mese and diamond hoes have been deprecated in MTGame 0.5.0dev.
These hoe types that are existing in worlds will still be usable in MTGame 0.5.0 stable as only the crafting recipes have been removed for now. The intention is that they will be used up and will slowly disappear from worlds, then in a future release of MTGame (maybe 0.5.1 or 0.5.2) these hoe types will be completely removed.

This thread is a warning of the eventual removal. Any mods that rely on these hoe types will need to be altered. You should make sure to use up these hoe types before MTGame 0.5.1.

To make the steel hoe worth the extra crafting effort its uses have been raised to 500, equal to the diamond hoe.
These hoe types have also been removed from the creative inventory.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Andrey01 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 09:50

But why will they be removed???????
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Linuxdirk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:29

Andrey01 wrote:But why will they be removed???????

Because it's "paramat's Game" and paramat does not like them and thus they will be removed.

I am pretty sure there will be mods adding them back.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by srifqi » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:36

@Andrey01: Read the discussion "Tools: rebalance needed" (#1681).
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Sires » Wed Apr 11, 2018 16:41

Linuxdirk wrote:
Andrey01 wrote:But why will they be removed???????

Because it's "paramat's Game" and paramat does not like them and thus they will be removed.

I am pretty sure there will be mods adding them back.

It wasn't even paramat that suggest this idea, why loosing your time making non-constructive critics.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Fixer » Wed Apr 11, 2018 19:30

No need to harass paramat with this, initially I've raised this whole topic of tool imbalance (it all started with bronze).

We have 6 (SIX) tiers of pickaxes, axes, shovels, hoes (wood, stone, steel, bronze, mese, diamond tiers) totalling 36 tools. Progression is not clear with them, for example: steel vs bronze and mese vs diamond. Bronze is pain to craft and is mostly pointless. Mese vs diamond is even more confusing. If I was MTG developer I would go with 2 main ways:
+ nerf all tools and rebalance them, bronze and mese got special uses like silk touch, farther reach, etc.
+ nerf all tools and remove bronze and mese as redundant ones
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Linuxdirk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 21:20

Fixerol wrote:No need to harass paramat with this

Actually I don’t. I just referenced something that was jokingly said earlier renaming “Minetest Game” to “Paramat’s Game” because he virtually is the only one working on it (and thus he can do whatever he wants, and thus he can remove hoes as he want and thus … got it? *g*)

Fixerol wrote:Progression is not clear with them, for example: steel vs bronze and mese vs diamond. Bronze is pain to craft and is mostly pointless. Mese vs diamond is even more confusing.

Or wooden tools or stone tools vs. no tools on everything that can be mined by hand. But that is not a problem of the tools but a problem on how Minetest calculates tool damage. It’s just broken by design and only allow rough estimates when defining tools.

Fixerol wrote:+ nerf all tools and rebalance them, bronze and mese got special uses like silk touch, farther reach, etc.

This would be best, yes, but this would need re-implementing most of the tool logic in the on_use function or rewriting it in the engine. Since both won’t happen anytime soon simply removing some of the tools would be the best option.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Sokomine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 05:07

Linuxdirk wrote:Actually I don’t. I just referenced something that was jokingly said earlier renaming “Minetest Game” to “Paramat’s Game” because he virtually is the only one working on it (and thus he can do whatever he wants, and thus he can remove hoes as he want and thus … got it? *g*)

It might have come across a bit more unfriendly than intended I'm afraid. Anyway...I'm glad paramt does all that work on MTG. New worlds have gained a lot in recent time and look much better now than they did in the past. And the hoes...I wonder if anyone ever seriously used other ones than the cheapest version. Except perhaps for first time playing. Preparing soil is a one-time job. Mining is diffrent in that regard and allows for/requires other balancing.

Linuxdirk wrote:Or wooden tools or stone tools vs. no tools on everything that can be mined by hand. But that is not a problem of the tools but a problem on how Minetest calculates tool damage. It’s just broken by design and only allow rough estimates when defining tools.

Hoes are very diffrent from picks or axes insofar as they are needed only once. The pick gets you more ores and wears off while obtaining them. The axe provides more wood which is needed for sticks and chests and all the other neat things you can craft and build. Shovels allow faster digging than with the hand. All this has little to do with the damage mechanism but more with how the tools are used. The parameters the current damage system uses may also have been mostly guesswork and they may profit from some finetuning.

Fixerol wrote:bronze and mese got special uses like silk touch, farther reach

It annoys me that diamond tools are stronger than mese ones. Mese ought to be strongest. Or at least most durable. It's alien technology and uniq to MT. Not some boring diamond :-) If necessary, mese and diamond could be crafted into a material for such a special mese pick. There's at least one mod out there which adds such mese/diamond combination tools.

Perhaps bronze tools could get that "silk touch" feature. There are some servers which provide picks which such a functionality. It is rarely needed and could be something for such a less-often-used pick. There is also the pick that diggs the cooked version of the block. IIRC it comes with mobs redo.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Linuxdirk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:27

Sokomine wrote:I'm glad paramt does all that work on MTG.

I'm glad all developers do their work on MTG and MT.

Sokomine wrote:And the hoes...I wonder if anyone ever seriously used other ones than the cheapest version.

Actually yes. I always keep at least one or two high-tier (Mese and diamond) hoes somewhere around the fields for fixing accidentally destroyed soil without having to care for having a hoe ready.

Sokomine wrote:All this has little to do with the damage mechanism but more with how the tools are used.

From actually paying the game not only within my LP series but also regularly on a server I can tell that stone/wood tools are pretty much useless if the node you want to mine can be mined by hand, too. There is no difference in speed or the drops. The only wooden tool that is ever needed is a wooden pickaxe to get 3 stones to get a stone pickaxe to get iron. So all wooden/stone tools except the pickaxes could be removed, too. Because they are useless.

Sokomine wrote:Perhaps bronze tools could get that "silk touch" feature. There are some servers which provide picks which such a functionality. It is rarely needed and could be something for such a less-often-used pick. There is also the pick that diggs the cooked version of the block. IIRC it comes with mobs redo.

Yes, this would be cool. Adding more features and variety to the tools would be nice.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Sokomine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 16:12

Linuxdirk wrote:Actually yes. I always keep at least one or two high-tier (Mese and diamond) hoes somewhere around the fields for fixing accidentally destroyed soil without having to care for having a hoe ready.

You're too rich in diamonds and mese :-) For those small repairs I usually craft a stone hoe on the spot. Thus I don't have to search for the old hoe stored in a chest somewhere.

Linuxdirk wrote:From actually paying the game not only within my LP series but also regularly on a server I can tell that stone/wood tools are pretty much useless if the node you want to mine can be mined by hand, too. There is no difference in speed or the drops. The only wooden tool that is ever needed is a wooden pickaxe to get 3 stones to get a stone pickaxe to get iron. So all wooden/stone tools except the pickaxes could be removed, too. Because they are useless.

Wooden tools are pretty useless, yes. I tend to work more with stone tools as stone is such a cheap material and available in surplus. On a new server it usually takes some time to get enough iron to comftably switch to that. And when that time comes there's usually the first diamond and mese amongst the iron as well, so I don't use iron tools particulary long. Stone picks prove useful for building as well because they don't dig too fast. Switching between diffrent digging times is what makes it hard for me to cope with pure creative servers; the nodes are digged too fast.
The durability of wood and stone tools ought to be increased. They might still dig slower than higher tier tools (but definitely faster than the hand) and thus motivate players to move on. Maybe there isn't room enough for that many useful tiers in the end. The tools have to be significantly better than the hand on one side and also need to get used up sufficiently so that the highest tier wouldn't last forever without repairs.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Linuxdirk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 16:59

Sokomine wrote:You're too rich in diamonds and mese :-)

Totally! I count them in "stacks of blocks" :)

Sokomine wrote:Wooden tools are pretty useless, yes. I tend to work more with stone tools as stone is such a cheap material and available in surplus.

In my LP series I currently use stone tools only but maybe I'll go underground to get some of the good stuff, soon. So yes, currently I do the same. Stone tools are just easy to get (and when it come to axes or shovels it is not even a problem if they break because using the bare hand makes no difference).

Sokomine wrote:The tools have to be significantly better than the hand on one side and also need to get used up sufficiently so that the highest tier wouldn't last forever without repairs.

Yes, or already suggested with different features (more drops, silk touch, etc.) but I guess that would need some engine changes. Afaik what's being dropped is defined by the node and not by the tool. So the node needs to define what to drop when mined with this-or-that tool, or the tool needs to be in control of what's being dropped.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Sokomine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 20:46

Linuxdirk wrote:Yes, or already suggested with different features (more drops, silk touch, etc.) but I guess that would need some engine changes. Afaik what's being dropped is defined by the node and not by the tool. So the node needs to define what to drop when mined with this-or-that tool, or the tool needs to be in control of what's being dropped.

Some picks already do this. I havn't looked at their code but they definitely manage to do so without engine changes. The feature to get the block itself instead of its drop is pretty rare. Getting the cooked material is far more common. Players hunt poor wobbling lava flans in order to get lava orbs and to craft such a pick.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Linuxdirk » Fri Apr 13, 2018 09:55

Sokomine wrote:I havn't looked at their code but they definitely manage to do so without engine changes.

Yes, this is absolutely possible, I do this in two of my mods, too. But I have to completely re-implement all relevant tool features in on_use and such.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by sorcerykid » Mon Apr 16, 2018 20:28

Personally, I've never understood the appeal of bronze or mese tools (add to the fact that mese, when crafted into tools, can be easily mistaken for gold). However, I know some players swear by their trusty bronze or mese pickaxe, over all others. More than likely I just phase them out of my subgame at some point.

As for the 3 different hoe types, I plan to keep them. For balance, I will modify the game mechanics so that hoes are required to harvest crops. This will give them a very important secondary use during all phases of farming, beyond just a one-time tilling of soil.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by rubenwardy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 22:12

sorcerykid wrote:my subgame


*game :)

Bronze had a very notable presense in the history of man, before steel or iron. You don't really get this in Minetest Game, as iron is very accessable and immediately gets you steel. A game I'm working on have proper unlocking of recipes and different qualities of furnace - iron requires a hotter furnace to smelt, so the game reflects this.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Vapalus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 09:07

Who needs dem hoes anyways.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by v-rob » Fri Apr 27, 2018 23:13

Vapalus wrote:Who needs dem hoes anyways.


People who don't use the easy solution of apples.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Stix » Fri May 11, 2018 21:58

this is awful, we need a better solution, like needing hoes to harvest crops (as sorcerykid suggested).
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Astrobe » Sat Jun 09, 2018 18:18

I came to a similar conclusion and removed all but the steel hoe (actually I removed all tools below steel tools).

Furthermore, every time one harvest something the soils returns to basic dirt. That way one has to craft a new hoe every now and then. At one point I used to make it so that one can plant trees only on worked soil. I removed it because that was my first solution to the "eternal hoe" problem and wasn't satisfied with it, but it might be useful to protect against some form of grief.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Astrobe » Sat Jun 09, 2018 19:05

Aluminium Bronze is slightly harder that mild steel according to these sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinell_scale
Bonus pictures: https://www.avivametals.com/collections ... nze?page=2

So just change the label of "Tin" to "Aluminium" and be done with it.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Brian Gaucher » Sat Jun 30, 2018 01:38

Awesome idea.
When I used to play Minecraft, which I haven't played once since discovering Minetest, I always thought hoes tiers were useless.

Removing some of them is a great idea. Of course deprecation is a necessary step. And improving Steel hoes to cover that range is excellent to prevent constant hoe creation.

Keep up the good work.
 

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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Vapalus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 07:47

The problem is it might end up being confusing for new players. I came from Minecraft to Minetest, and I was used to making hoes from any material. In fact, having a diamond hoe just was a sign of either bad resource management or a sign of being filthy rich.
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Re: MTGame: 3 hoe types deprecated for eventual removal

by Sires » Sat Jul 07, 2018 14:46

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