Let's talk about combat

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Hume2
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Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 09:20

I found that combat in Minetest is a bit confusing and might use some improvements.

Have you noticed that when you are attacked by a few monsters at once, you are hopeless with a stone sword? Also in 5.0, it's planned that iron ore will occur deeper, which will make you even more hopeless.

The full-punch interval is a nice feature but it leads to confusion. If you are raged and hit a mob by a stone sword too frequently, it doesn't do anything, so you feel like something is wrong here. It's because the damage is rounded down to zero, so it does zero damage. You actually have to click ... wait ... click ... wait ... click ... wait, which is quite boring and unusable when you are attacked by multiple enemies.

My suggestion is changing this:

tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4)

to this:

math.sqrt(tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4))

The full punch interval will still play a role but your rage will make you stronger. Also knockback should be applied to all hits, not only full punches. The knockback will then depend on the damage taken. With these two improvements, you won't be so hopeless against a smaller horde of enemies while possessing only a stone sword.

What do you think?
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by davidthecreator » Mon Feb 18, 2019 20:55

I think they should also increase damage of wooden and stone swords...

Stone from 4 to 5

And wood from 2 to 3
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Mon Feb 18, 2019 21:11

On the topic of mob combat: have you noticed you’re never really fight them but really only go to war with their selection boxes? xD
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by davidthecreator » Mon Feb 18, 2019 21:21

texmex wrote:On the topic of mob combat: have you noticed you’re never really fight them but really only go to war with their selection boxes? xD


As long as the mob dies, I don't care what I'm hitting.
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Mon Feb 18, 2019 22:14

davidthecreator wrote:
texmex wrote:On the topic of mob combat: have you noticed you’re never really fight them but really only go to war with their selection boxes? xD


As long as the mob dies, I don't care what I'm hitting.

Immersion much?
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 16:59

texmex wrote:On the topic of mob combat: have you noticed you’re never really fight them but really only go to war with their selection boxes? xD

Well, yes, you're right. I personally don't mind fighting against selection boxes but I'd like to enjoy the battle. Clicking with a long period and retreating isn't satisfactory enough. If clicking faster makes me stronger, I can feel the battle better. (tested myself)
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by davidthecreator » Tue Feb 19, 2019 17:49

texmex wrote:
davidthecreator wrote:
texmex wrote:On the topic of mob combat: have you noticed you’re never really fight them but really only go to war with their selection boxes? xD


As long as the mob dies, I don't care what I'm hitting.

Immersion much?


When you light an explosive / shoot a projectile, you are technically both, hurting the explosive/bullet, and forcing it to hurt itself even more, to blast/hit the mob... But...

That's how combat works.
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Wed Feb 20, 2019 20:13

Recently I tried to mix a bunch of mods together to make a very simple-minded shooter; just run around and kill stuff with guns. In one of my attempts, I used sci-fi mobs which introduces all kind of robots. I was able to kill a robot with a stone sword, pretty easily.

Discussing the combat system out-of-context won't bring us anywhere. You might have armor, you might have guns and you might face dinosaurs or robots or zombies. Saying that one should increase the damage of the stone sword by one or doing this or that... Sure, it may indeed be good for your game, but it also won't make sense in another game. I have no problem with the fact that my players would be in deep trouble facing more than two monsters with just a stone sword (actually even a steel sword, I removed the stone sword that made no sense in my case). That's normal, my game design is that there are not many monsters, but they hit hard; my player I advised to avoid dangerous places (and run away if they see something obviously too big for them) until they have a decent equipment - which used to be common sense (until F2P video games started to center their design on player retention, in other words "don't make them cry and ragequit cuz that's not how you get their money", and so players more and more expect to kill anything that come their way with whatever is in their character's hand).

Combat is a whole system that includes mobs, weapons, armor, environment... You have to adjust the damage here, the HP there, etc. to make things work according to what you want. Maybe you want a lot of easy-to-kill mobs, maybe you want a fewer-but-hard-to-kill mobs (often you want both, but in different proportions than the next game).
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 06:32

I think, you didn't get the point. This thread isn't about making sword X stronger or making monster Y weaker or changing the full punch interval. Of course that I can balance them for my needs. This thread is about how the damage is calculated from the punch interval. It's about changing the game mechanics so it will be more fun to fight monsters. Of course that this will rebalance the current mods. I can change "tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4)" to "math.sqrt(tflp / (tool_capabilities.full_punch_interval or 1.4))" in mobs redo myself easily but there's also something similar hardcoded in Minetest engine.
Last edited by Hume2 on Thu Feb 21, 2019 17:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by jas » Thu Feb 21, 2019 06:46

Can't right mouse button to jump, and it messes me all up. I been playing a little bit of UrT lately, and it's stressful switching between games because of it.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Thu Feb 21, 2019 19:00

Hume2 wrote:I think, you didn't get the point. This thread isn't about making sword X stronger or making monster Y weaker or changing the full punch interval. Of course that I can balance them for my needs. This thread is about how the damage is calculated from the punch interval.


I think my answer was on point, but I indeed forgot to address your main question:

The full punch interval will still play a role but your rage will make you stronger [...] What do you think?


I sometimes see players on my server - probably kids on Android - who stand in place and just spam the punch button when attacked by a mob. Seeing this makes me sad, because they don't use their characters' mobility to avoid losing HP.

That's the kind of gameplay your proposal tends to support, because the intend of the change is to reduce the penalty for spamming the punch button. Well, the fact that I don't like that isn't the only problem with it, unfortunately.

I think that removing or weakening one of the few combat mechanics the game features is not a good answer, because the root cause of the problem, in my opinion, is that there aren't enough combat mechanics.

I'm also a bit dissatisfied with combat, because fighting melee mobs in my game boils down to "kiting" them (it's not completely trivial though, cause there's always the risk of falling in a hole). My current thinking about this is to add more combat mechanics, more specifically enhancing the behavior of the mobs so that they won't be kited too easily. Very specifically, I'm considering the idea of making them teleport somewhere around the player when hit (sometimes), because the general theme of my game allows it.

Of course this probably won't work for anyone else. In your case (stone sword vs angry mob), a possible solution could be to reset the punch interval (actually ignore tflp etc.) when the player hits a different mob (one could imagine that a mob that was just hit has its "guard" up for a while).
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by jas » Fri Feb 22, 2019 20:54

If there was some visual feedback it would be helpful, or auditory feedback.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:00

Well, you're right. The combat should be something more than clicking a selection box n-times. The mechanism I suggested supports the noob-like combat but when there are more angry mobs at once, you still need to retreat to dodge the attacks. However, one shouldn't retreat too much, it's not fun either.

I think, there could be different types of attack. Maybe if you press a key and click at once, it could make a different attack.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by firefox » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:59

the formula should have minimum damage set to 1. knockback distance equal to damage dealt (minimum 1).
then you can also fight stronger mobs by pushing them down a cliff or you can keep them away to escape.
punching everything to death with the basic fist can be avoided by increasing mob hp.
and even if that mechanic would make it possible to continously knockback a mob and take no damage, it would only work against 1 target but not multiple.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Mon Feb 25, 2019 18:21

If you make knockback independent from damage (MobsRedo allows this to some extent), you can have a mace that does little damage and has a long punch interval, but pushes back a mob. Then the player can switch between a regular DPS sword and the CC (crowd-control) mace.

I think one should look more towards defensive abilities like CC. A key to block attacks seems difficult to do because few mobs have attack animations (and I think with MobsRedo the damage is dealt when the animation is started anyway).

Games (outside of MT) that I've played often give the players "abilities" (special powers with cooldowns). Some of these abilities deal little or no damage but have special effects: CC (like knock-back, slow, ensnare, confusion), special character moves like teleportation, temporary shield/invulnerability, temporary speed/jump buffs, dashes,...
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Fixer » Mon Feb 25, 2019 19:32

Minetest Game does not even have mobs... yet
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by ShadMOrdre » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:23

I suppose an on_punch override, that checks for whether the player is jumping, sneaking, sprinting, moving forward or backward, or side stepping, while holding a weapon, (ie, anything that deals fleshy damage) and attacking with said weapon would be the best method of determining the strength and the type of the attack.

IMHO, this mechanic would be far more beneficial than simply toying with punch intervals, tool caps, or altering other mods.

A key to block attacks seems difficult to do


This seems a better use of E than sprinting. Sprinting should be a double tap W.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by 843jdc » Tue Mar 05, 2019 20:19

Stone swords should shatter into rubble the first time they hit anything. Diamond swords should be removed from the game.

Just my 2 cents
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Sat Mar 09, 2019 00:20

843jdc wrote:Stone swords should shatter into rubble the first time they hit anything. Diamond swords should be removed from the game.

Just my 2 cents

Indeed. we should have:
> find rock on ground
> beat tree with rock
> make stone club
> use club to mine iron

and then there should be a proper steel-making process using carbon-imbuement

and diamonds should be for making non-force tools like a file or saw.
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Joseph16 » Sat May 04, 2019 14:07

I didn't even know minetest had an attack cool-down till recently when I died from spam clicking a wolf. There is no indicator of cooldown status or anything. So to the untrained eye you would never know. I think I'm gonna remove the sword cooldown on my server.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Hume2 » Sun May 05, 2019 09:28

Joseph13 wrote:I didn't even know minetest had an attack cool-down till recently when I died from spam clicking a wolf. There is no indicator of cooldown status or anything. So to the untrained eye you would never know. I think I'm gonna remove the sword cooldown on my server.

Well, there is really an indicator of cooldown but it's hard to notice. Watch the sword after you click, it returns slowly into its normal position. When the sword returns to its normal position, the cooldown is gone.

PolySaken wrote: Indeed. we should have:
> find rock on ground
> beat tree with rock
> make stone club
> use club to mine iron

and then there should be a proper steel-making process using carbon-imbuement

and diamonds should be for making non-force tools like a file or saw.

Well, this is kind of off-topic. I was thinking about a game which would offer more realistic ways of crafting and harvesting resources.
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Re: Let's talk about combat

by Astrobe » Sun May 05, 2019 10:49

Hume2 wrote:
Joseph13 wrote:I didn't even know minetest had an attack cool-down till recently when I died from spam clicking a wolf. There is no indicator of cooldown status or anything. So to the untrained eye you would never know. I think I'm gonna remove the sword cooldown on my server.

Well, there is really an indicator of cooldown but it's hard to notice. Watch the sword after you click, it returns slowly into its normal position. When the sword returns to its normal position, the cooldown is gone.


I think the message was lost due to the server crash, but someone noticed that it only happens when the player hits an entity. It doesn't happen with blocks and it doesn't happen when the player hits nothing. For the latter I think it should be optional; it would be easier to understand and it would allow to make combat a bit more technical (esp. if one hides selection boxes!)

It would be nice if it worked the same way in all cases (including blocks), but it's not viable e.g. for digging (you really want to just hold down the mouse button in this case). However, maybe the option to unify the behavior could be something like "ignore clicks when on cooldown" (rather than hitting and applying damage proportional to the remaining cooldown duration). But I guess it would break way too much things.
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Mon May 06, 2019 06:39

Hume2 wrote:Well, this is kind of off-topic. I was thinking about a game which would offer more realistic ways of crafting and harvesting resources.

Aye, sorry. It was sorta relevant to the diamond and stone sword thing.

Here's something more on-topic: perhaps diamond swords should have a chance of instantly breaking.
(Explanation for those who don't get it: diamond swords are evidently very sharp. So sharp, in fact, that anything hit with the edge of the sword is cut so easily that the sword doesn't break. But if something hits it on the wrong angle... Smash! Shards in your face!)
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by PolySaken » Mon May 06, 2019 06:53

Maybe having a targeting system is a good idea?
It could work as follows:
Code: Select all
playerFoo:setTarget(someEntity)
playerFoo:attackTarget(weaponBar)

In my grand vision, this would cause the player playerFoo to set SomeEntity as a target, then attempt an attack on the entity.
Whether they succeed in their assault would be decided by the weapon's range field and the angle of the attack.
Damage could be calculated based on the original fleshy damage using something like total_damage=(fleshy+(angle_bonus*angle))-cooldown_penalty.
 

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Re: Let's talk about combat

by texmex » Mon May 06, 2019 20:28

PolySaken wrote:Whether they succeed in their assault would be decided by the weapon's range field and the angle of the attack.


This could also work without targeting, simply by looking for mobs by raycasting and proximity.
 

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