Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by paramat » Mon Mar 04, 2019 22:03

> It does not make MTG more challenging,

Well, it does.

> dispatch ores to different biomes.

That's planned.

> One should be very cynical and consider that new players are more important than old game makers,

No, and they're not more important.

> Too bad the new issue is dead since a year and nothing was changed.

It's been discussed, there's no need for constant discussion in an issue.
It's now supported by 2 core devs, and previously supported by 1.
 

User avatar
runs
Member
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 08:32
GitHub: runsy

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by runs » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:13

IMO:
-Minetest is a cool game as a base to make games.
-It's challenging. No. But Minecraft neither. What lacks in MTG is the surprise factor. The first time I played Minecraft I said WOW, what a game, an open world, mining, mobs tonight. I played it for 3 years. But I reach a point that, uh, simply I get bored. Why? Silly Mobs. No adventure. It was and is basically a LEGO game. And poor of mods. As I said in another thread neither has much (working) mods. The first time I played Minetest I had lost that surprise factor. But I enjoy it thanks to mods. Much better, complete, challenging and cool that the Minecraft ones. The last 3 months Microsoft is starting to add quickly a lot of mechanics and things, thanks to the new competitor: Hytale. LOL.
-You can improve MTG with mods. Yes, it hard to find the appropriate ones. But for lazy people that there already exist the games. With one, two or three really good, bigger ones is sufficent. Minecraft is a only one game! What's the matter with it?
-I do not want much more ores in MTG. For what? Thousands of them? No. For that, there are a lot of mods, that already add tons.
-Mobs? Maybe. But another sheep, cow... No, so boring. The factor surprise again. It was cool to shave a sheep in 2009. But now in 2019? Hytale added some new concepts, i.e., a spider that climb vertically, a bear that defend its territory... Maybe I would like in MTG something like a Platypus (that is a strange and poisonous animal).
-From 5.0, I love the new permafrost biome, Marram Grass, Corals and Kelps, glow worn...
-I hate the new butterflies, are like flying books, LOL.
-People here hate the forks. But they are really popular. Look at the Google Play store. They sell advertisements and spam and..., but also a solid experience to kids, that does not bother about Open Source and nothing more than play and enjoy.
 

User avatar
Punk
Member
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 06:52

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Punk » Tue Mar 12, 2019 15:24

If you go up to y=-600 deep and can not find a single diamond ore, this is not a challenge, it is a boredom.
DON'T STEAL! The government hates competition.
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Linuxdirk » Tue Mar 12, 2019 15:56

Punk wrote:If you go up to y=-600 deep and can not find a single diamond ore, this is not a challenge, it is a boredom.

Yes, underground is boring without "underground mods". Below -1024 (or -1200? or whatever Mese starts spawning now) it is all the same down to -32000. And even there is nothing special without mods: You just walk on the bottom of the "world cube".

But it is the same in the other direction. Without any tweaks or mods anything above 800 is just air. With mgv7 parameter floatlands (default is nofloatlands) you'll get highly experimental but already pretty sweet floating islands on around and slightly over 1200.

With this enabled to me the most interesting part of the world is roughly between -1200 and +1200. When having something like Cave Realms (Cave Realms Lite) enabled the underground gets prettier but will still get repetitive after some time.

When slightly tweaking mgv7 you get friggin giant caves and having them decorated by Cave Realms Lite is just sweet. But I absolutely feel you. Underground is too repetitive even if you see Minetest Game only as modding base.

I absolutely hope that one day the underground would get underground biomes.
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Linuxdirk » Sun Mar 17, 2019 04:45

paramat wrote:Mgv7 has massive caverns by default.

I talk about colorful and interesting 3000+ deep giant cave complexes full of glowing things that look cool like this. This is something Minetest Game does not have due to concept and mgv7 does not provide by default (at least when I created the world).

There are also no undergroud biomes, neither horizontal nor vertical (if there are underground biomes they’re not used nor do not change anything). Look at this Hytale concept art of underground biomes (I know Hytale likely be vapor-ware). How awesome would it be having underground biomes (or at least underground depending on “overworld biomes”) in default mgv7.
 

Astrobe
Member
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:46

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Astrobe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:06

In my opinion, you don't need that much rich undergrounds when the surface terrains and biomes are interesting by themselves. Besides, glowing underground biomes are fully fictional, and that's not everyone's cup of tea.

mgv7 tries hard to carve caves in mountains but there's actually nothing to do for the players there. Same for the various biomes: I'd say a quarter of them are not interesting for the player because there's very little to do or gain there - or it is a one-time thing.

I'm glad that it is planned to add ores in non-default stones, but I believe one should go further and break free from the idea that you have to go deeper to get better stuff. We are shooting ourselves in the foot because we are directing the players to the underground, the least interesting part of the world, when most of the efforts are spent to make the surface look good. The direction of mining should be mostly horizontal, not mostly vertical.
 

User avatar
Wuzzy
Member
 
Posts: 3399
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 15:01
GitHub: Wuzzy2
IRC: Wuzzy
In-game: Wuzzy

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Wuzzy » Sun Mar 17, 2019 18:05

Current biome API supports biomes at any height, so yes, that would imply undeground biomes to some extent, but it appeared nobody used it so far.

Minetest's mapgen is actually quite powerful already. There's still room for improvement, but a lot is possible right now. It's just that all game makers have failed to deliver.

Evidence for the capabilities of the MT mapgen is MCL2 which recreated all the overworld biomes of MC. Not perfectly yet, but that's not the goal and player feedback has been positive so far anyway.

The concept art of Hytale shows that underground biomes that are directly linked to the overworld biome. I think it's quite simplistic but could still be powerful, if used right. Also, this concept is definitely possible with current biome API. The solution is that you just stack all biomes with the same heat and humidity points, so you end up with the same Vonoroi diagram for each height. This stacking technique is what I have used in MCL2 extensively to give different biome styles at different levels (i.e. snow levels, dry mesa forest plateaus, etc). Check out mods/MAPGEN/mcl_biomes/init.lua in the MCL2 sources.
Underground biomes technically do exist in MCL2, but it's subtle. Warning, spoiler alert!
+ Spoiler


I am not aware of any game that seriously applied serious complex underground biomes that you seem to imagine. I agree that is a completely legit idea to have, it just needs to be adopted.

Actually, I suspect there are far more mapgen things in Minetest that haven't explored or tinkered around with enough. I know paramat does some crazy cool things occasionally, but no full games ever grow out of it. Some heavily unexplored areas are: Elaborate stone system, the crazy fractal mapgen, crazy mapgen settings of DEFAULT mapgens, crazy but still playable mapgen settings, going wild with L-system trees (I even wrote the ltool mod for it!), and the list goes on.
My point is, yes, it's right to make more demands from the Minetest mapgen but in the same turn it should also be your responsibility to figure out what crazy things you can do with CURRENT Minetest.

There will never be biomes in “default mgv7” because default mgv7 is just a stone world that waits to be filled with biomes. I think the lack of default biomes in mgv7 is by design and I don't think it's a problem.
Think of it of an empty canvas that the game must fill. It would be actually much more problematic if mgv7 would ship those crystal caverns by default, because all games are now forced to include them.

Unrelated to biomes, I believe I also saw someone experiment with 3D stone distribution, some exciting stuff, no idea what has become of it. But this is exactly the kind of experimentation I love to see.
My creations. I gladly accept bitcoins: 17fsUywHxeMHKG41UFfu34F1rAxZcrVoqH
 

User avatar
paramat
Developer
 
Posts: 3348
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 00:05
Location: UK
GitHub: paramat
IRC: paramat

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by paramat » Mon Mar 18, 2019 06:48

Linuxdirk, i know, but you wrote:

> When slightly tweaking mgv7 you get friggin giant caves

The giant caves are there without tweaking mgv7.
In the mapgen questions thread you wrote:

> I want long and deep caves (hundreds and hundreds of nodes) with giant halls where the ceiling is not loaded when standing on ground,

So i'm clarifying that these are already present by default. You're probably already aware but what you wrote gave the wrong impression.

Underground biomes are intended for MTG. In 5.0.0 registered decorations can now generate in caves and dungeons, that is the essential feature needed.
 

User avatar
Linuxdirk
Member
 
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:21
Location: Germany
In-game: Linuxdirk

Re: Does the current Minetest seem too easy?

by Linuxdirk » Mon Mar 18, 2019 08:05

paramat wrote:The giant caves are there without tweaking mgv7.

Maybe we have different opinions on what "giant" means. I just slightly modified the cave generation parameters and got, well, basically lots of empty underground space. I could basejump in a cave and fall for hundreds of nodes straight down. The screenshot of the Caverealms-decorated cave does not show it that good, but it goes on like this for several thousands nodes (I stopped jumping down because there simply was no end ...).

If this now is the default I never noticed it before, but previous worlds I generated without modifying the settings never had such giant caves.

paramat wrote:Underground biomes are intended for MTG.

Looking forward to that.
 

Previous

Return to General Discussion



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], PolySaken, rubenwardy, sorcerykid and 5 guests