Swords seem obsolete.

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Inky_Bendy
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Swords seem obsolete.

by Inky_Bendy » Sat Feb 01, 2020 18:56

In the default game, swords... are kind of useless. Yeah, I know there is PVP, but not everyone likes PVP. As far as I know, mobs aren't in the default game anymore, which makes swords kind of useless in singleplayer. Swords do break plants faster, but other then that and PVP situations, they just don't really do anything useful. Does anyone else have their own opinion on swords?
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Hume2 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:03

What do you suggest? Removing swords from minetest_game?

Well, minetest_game is more likely a humble showcase, there are more useless things, like vessels.
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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Krock » Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:19

Swords are very useful for harvesting plants like wheat, tomatoes and papyrus. Even if PvP isn't enabled I craft them to farm faster (unless there's some way to automate it).
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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Inky_Bendy » Sat Feb 01, 2020 19:28

Hume2 wrote:What do you suggest? Removing swords from minetest_game?

Well, minetest_game is more likely a humble showcase, there are more useless things, like vessels.


No no, I'm not suggesting that, it's just that without any monsters, there isn't really that big of a need to make a sword in order to defend yourself.

Krock wrote:Swords are very useful for harvesting plants like wheat, tomatoes and papyrus. Even if PvP isn't enabled I craft them to farm faster (unless there's some way to automate it).

Yeah, and I totally agree, it's just that the main purpose of a sword is for combat, stabbing things, not harvesting crops. Harvesting crops faster could be a function to the hoe. But yeah. My point, is that the sword doesn't have a whole lot of use right now.

Also, did we have mobs in past versions of Minetest?
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by v-rob » Sat Feb 01, 2020 20:37

We had mobs a loooong time ago. But MTG is full of a lot of stuff that is useless within itself, but other mods use them, e.g. mobs mods make use of MTG's swords.

Bit of trivia: In the old versions of Minetest with mobs, you could dig anything with your hand, including stone. So actually, all tools did was speed everything up (digging stone with your hand took something like 20 seconds). We should have removed all tools when we had the change :P
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by paramat » Sun Feb 02, 2020 01:58

I somewhat agree they are not needed in MTG, as with so much other stuff, but the important point is: it is just too disruptive to remove them.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by GayJesus » Sun Feb 02, 2020 02:32

Inky_Bendy wrote:In the default game, swords... are kind of useless. Yeah, I know there is PVP, but not everyone likes PVP. As far as I know, mobs aren't in the default game anymore, which makes swords kind of useless in singleplayer. Swords do break plants faster, but other then that and PVP situations, they just don't really do anything useful. Does anyone else have their own opinion on swords?


Keep, almost everyone adds mods to MTG. For PVP a better sword is sort of a way to level up and accomplish something. If not using for PVP the better sword will last longer.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Inky_Bendy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 18:29

paramat wrote:I somewhat agree they are not needed in MTG, as with so much other stuff, but the important point is: it is just too disruptive to remove them.

I totally agree that it is too disruptive to remove them, my idea is to give them another purpose. We could make it so that we could get get more saplings from leaves using them, or something else.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Hume2 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 21:12

We usually solve these things by making custom mods.

I don't think, it's necessary to fix it in vanilla MTG since it's not meant to be playable anyway. And even if we decided to make it playable, there are many things which are far more serious.
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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Astrobe » Sun Feb 02, 2020 21:43

Or you can make them useful.

If you use the bushes as the source of materials to build the first set of tools (bush stem -> wood planks and sticks -> wood pick/axe/shovel/sword), then all the rest can require an appropriate tool: tree leaves (or anything one would use a machete on - except for bushes) are cut with swords only, trees are chopped down with axes only, dirt can be dug by shovels only.

It makes a bit more sense (except for the whole concept of wooden tools; starting with sticks + flint -> stone axe etc. would be much better, but too disruptive I guess) and it is not hard for the player to figure out what they need to use.

It is true that it would make it difficult to get started if they are spawned in the middle of a desert, but hey, it is supposed to be difficult to survive in those environments. Those who just want to build big and fast and have no fun running around to get the stuff they need will use the creative mode anyway.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Inky_Bendy » Mon Feb 03, 2020 20:36

To Hume2: I totally get the part of fixing it with a custom mod, and I would do that if I had any knowledge of coding in Lua. (even then I'm still interested in cramming knowledge on how to code in Lua into my autistic brain.)
But I don't get the part of vanilla MTG not being meant to be playable anyway... unless your referring to the minimal development test?

To Astrobe: I agree with what you say! I really do! It makes sense to me too! (I do like the concept of flint tools replacing wood. Maybe we should keep the wooden shovel and hoe though. They handle dirt, which is softer than wood, but yeah, it could be a bit disruptive.)
I do like a challenge, cause survival is supposed to be a mode where, you know, you gather resources to survive. It's not really fun if everything is right there in front of you.

But back the swords. Has it also bothered anyone else that the blades of the swords seem short? I mean, there is only so much you can do with only 16 by 16 pixels of space, but the blades of real swords are much longer.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by runs » Mon Feb 03, 2020 22:13

Swords are important, for fighting in my Petz mod for example.

MTG is the base game.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Hume2 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 06:26

Inky_Bendy wrote:But I don't get the part of vanilla MTG not being meant to be playable anyway... unless your referring to the minimal development test?

I'm really talking about MTG. It has been discussed many many times.
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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Inky_Bendy » Tue Feb 04, 2020 17:59

Hume2 wrote:
Inky_Bendy wrote:But I don't get the part of vanilla MTG not being meant to be playable anyway... unless your referring to the minimal development test?

I'm really talking about MTG. It has been discussed many many times.


Sorry, I'm new around here. *It also doesn't help that I am Autistic.*
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Astrobe » Thu Feb 06, 2020 20:24

Don't call yourself autistic if you have not actually be diagnosed with an autistic disorder. Be more creative with self-deprecation.

Regarding MTG, that it is not playable is a hyperbole. Its issues have been debated to death indeed, everyone wants to steer it in a direction they think is good - and that includes my suggestions above.

Don't bundle it with MT anymore. It compares poorly with MC (no mobs etc.), but at the same time we don't want to showcase just a(nother) MC clone. And it will never show everything MT can do (that would probably be a mess anyway).

Moreover, what we need is a tutorial for players without prior experience of the genre. Wuzzy's tutorial does the job. One should not expect newbies to download a tutorial. One should not expect newbies to know MC's crafting recipes, or to read a wiki for that. Just bundle Wuzzy's tutorial.
Maybe adapt it a little: let them dig the castle's blocks after they complete the tutorial and drop a note about how to download actual games.

MTG could then be a modding/game making sort-of tutorial. It really is a good base when you don't have the experience or the patience to start from scratch, in particular because many mods rely on it.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by paramat » Sat Feb 15, 2020 02:37

Vanilla MTGame is meant to be playable, and it is playable keeping in mind the sort of 'game' it is. It is just not particularly exciting and is just a basic sandbox/building game.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by Astrobe » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:47

paramat wrote:Vanilla MTGame is meant to be playable, and it is playable keeping in mind the sort of 'game' it is. It is just not particularly exciting and is just a basic sandbox/building game.


I think you don't realize how important the first impression is for most players.

Usually attracting and keeping users is not a top priority for open source projects.

But you are making a game engine. This means you have to attract and keep players in hopes of converting a fraction of them to modders and game makers. You also need a significant player base because it is the potential player base for game makers and servers.

If you don't give a good first impression, your tank is leaking fuel.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by duane » Sat Feb 15, 2020 23:15

Ugh! Not this argument again.

If you want a more exciting (note that I didn't say better) default game, MAKE a game that meets your requirements, AND get EVERYONE to agree that it's better AND EASIER TO MAINTAIN than the current default. If one man is developing and maintaining the game, the project could be screwed if he drops dead tomorrow. The game has to be something that only takes minimal effort, unless you can convince a lot more developers to step up tomorrow.

And I still say there needs to be a default game. Minetest is not about killing monsters -- it's about building. That's what attracts a lot of people to begin with. The default game is fine for that. Exciting games might not attract the type of modders that are good for the project. That's a common assumption, but I see nothing to support it.
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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by runs » Mon Feb 17, 2020 22:53

MTG is great. Only lacks on mobs = Adventure, peril... Construction is only half a piece of the cake IMO.
Apart from the mobs, MTG is complete, even compared with Minecraft till v1.5 at least. It has all of the necessary. Even it has its own cool things and features by itself. I don't understand why it's so criticized. Another thing is comparing with a magnifying glass.
My only negative thoughts is about the engine, to give just one example: The support of the vision of an wielded item is through a mod and not through the engine.
 

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Re: Swords seem obsolete.

by paramat » Mon Feb 17, 2020 23:06

Astrobe,
Your post seems directed at me, so in response:

> I think you don't realize how important the first impression is for most players.

I do.

And i agree with the rest of your post.
A lot of effort has gone into improving MTGame over the last few years, and there are already intentions for mobs and many new features that are desired, see the issues. We just have very little time, we are not deliberately neglecting MTGame, it is exasperating that some people treat us as if we are.

This is a free game, we are unpaid volunteers, mostly adults with extremely busy lives. We would love to have more time to work on MTGame, however core dev time is so limited currently we are focussing on keeping the engine alive, as that is obviously a priority.
There is no easy solution to this, if there was it would already have happened.

It is not just the task of core devs to create impressive games. In fact other games are in a far better position, they can develop far quicker, and do not have 'design by incompatible overly-large committee'.
Currently, MTGame is kept alive to support what depends on it, to act as a gentle introduction sandbox game and as a good coding example. We currently cannot give it the time it would need to be 'impressive', so do not expect it to be impressive. Currently it is down to others to create impressive games.
 


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