Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

cuthbertdoublebarrel
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Zughy wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 21:26
cuthbertdoublebarrel wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 20:52
wakey wakey .the very first thing it states on the main website is "An open source voxel game engine" so many people are not confused about its status as an engine as you so claim. its quiet clearly states that its a game engine .
Actually, according to this post, 8 out of 13 people believe it should be more obvious,
give it up you are now clutching at straws 8 people obviously skipped over the first paragraph which boldly states "An open source voxel game engine"
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Cassumbra wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 21:41
I think the topic of "Keep MTG" and "How to polish MTG" are two different subjects that should have different threads. On that note, does anyone mind if I post some notes/thoughts I had while messing around in MTG?
you go right ahead . we will find a coder to polish it if managment are only intrested in fully fledged games there is always someone on https://www.moddb.com/ looking for a project to show off thier skills
awaiting minetest hardcore mode .

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Cassumbra » Post

Alright, so:
-The UI in both the menu screen of MT and in MTG aren't super great. It doesn't really match with the rest of the style and if I'm gonna be honest, looks kinda like default mobile app stuff. The buttons, inventory, menu, everything could do with being actually sprited, I think it would really help.
-This is more of a problem with MT itself, but MT could do with a launcher or updater on windows.
-Similar items dropped next to eachother in the world don't seem to autostack. I think this can cause issues with lag and its also just kinda annoying to click each item to pick everything up.
-Some music would do a lot of good to help with the ambiance, although we would probably need to find someone who could make said music.
-Crumbly nodes (Sand/ Gravel) make "beep boop" noises when placed. They could do with having noises that sound crackly and coarse instead. The noises they currently have just don't sound right.
-The fist looks a bit like a floating chicken nugget. It doesn't even have the illusion of actually being attached to anything.
-Could do with skins and the ability to go into third person
-Hearts don't leave empty slots when the player takes damage, looks quite off when compared to games with similar HP systems.

I have some ideas for stuff that could be added and I have some other criticisms but I'll leave them out for now for fear of being too nitpicky.
I think having a strong base game is necessary for drawing in attention. As it stands, MTG looks like bootleg Minecraft but I think it has room to grow and do things that Minecraft hasn't and can't do.

I'm currently trying to get into MT modding again, so if someone knows how I can contribute to MTG it'd be cool to know, although I'm not sure if changes are being accepted?

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by cuthbertdoublebarrel » Post

Cassumbra wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 23:11
mt menu . inventory . music
MT menu redesignviewtopic.php?f=7&t=24256
engine has online content browser with updates at the bottom of content
unified inventory viewtopic.php?t=12767
ambient lite https://content.minetest.net/packages/T ... /ambience/[/url]
getting late missed one out check out hud bars mods for the hearts .
thats why i like a base game to mod to my preference
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by paramat » Post

Zughy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:43
[...] I don't think Minetest should be shipped with any game by default.
[...]
[...] In the long run, MTG has been causing more bad than good, first of all conveying the wrong idea that MTG = MT. If it doesn't get removed, people will keep creating more mods trying to patch it up, so the damage will actually increase. Because they could spend time doing something else.
I agree with what i have quoted above.
Although i think the word 'abandon' is not suitable.

I think that MTG should be maintained and bugfixed, obviously, to support all that relies on it, but otherwise only get minimal attention, just occasional refinements, improvements or minor features.
Actually, it is almost in this state now, but some core devs continue to dream of developing it into a 'complete, impressive game', but usually end up do not doing anything due to lack of time and priorities. I was guilty of this too, but have now given up on those plans.
Trying to make MTG a 'complete, impressive game' would be a mistake as it is crippled and restrained by its past and what it has to support, it is a poor base to work from. Any 'impressive game' has to be a new game.

Focussing on MTG so much means we continue to focus on it and suffer from it. It does many things in bad ways that cannot be changed due to how that would break everything that relies on it being the way it is.
Focussing on MTG leads to even more games and mods being based on it, which makes it even harder to move on from it.
Focussing on it takes up limited core dev time that could be spent on better games or new games.
The more attention it gets the larger it gets, increasing the maintenance required, so it is best to move on as soon and as completely as possible.

I think the value of MTG is:
* Supporting what is based on it.
* Being a good coding example (in some parts, not in others), for example of biome registrations, ore registrations etc.
* Being an unexciting 'gentle introduction' game to get used to controls, mining, building.
* Being a well coded and reliable testing game for development.

I think it is essential that MT has zero bias towards MTG, apart from it being high in the list of featured games on the Content Database.
I think it is only acceptable to ship with multiple games, or with no games, MTG-only is the worst possible situation.
Shipping with multiple games has been intended for many years but never happened, besides, it will be a lot of work to organise, and the CDB now makes downloading easy.

The focus on MTG also causes far too much attention in this forum, for example this thread and the many others, all the criticisms and arguing.
I encourage people to stop thinking about MTG so much, create new games.
If you are a Lua contributor do not automatically assume MTG is the thing to contribute too, perhaps choose a different game.

So overall, i think shipping with no games (plus the required main menu changes) is possibly the most important current task in development.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

paramat wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 23:34
[]
I believe this is the wisest path to take. Either polish MTG to mirror shine or don't include it at all, so that everyone would have to discover on their own terms that this is an engine, and there exist multiple games to try.

If there's one project that is very worthy of attention it is Crafter 0.4, especially with its strides in mob API and how polished of an experience it looks like already. Oil_boy constantly brings up performance as a major factor in his developments as well, so I believe instead of the core developers spreading themselves thin on MTG, at this point it's better to instead support the modded games and implement any improvements to the engine multiple games would benefit from, such as optimizations, fixes to rendering, and anything else the modder simply has no access to from the Lua side without massive workarounds.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by paramat » Post

Crystalwarrior wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:38
It's too deeply ingrained into Minetest's identity. You abandon MTG, you abandon the entire foundation the game rests on, and you essentially have to start from scratch.
This is very wrong. MT does not need to be ingrained with any game. MT is a game engine, not a game. MT has zero reliance on MTG, MTG is not a foundation for MT, it is the other way around. Without MTG, MT is fine and complete, and nothing needs starting from scratch in the engine.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Crystalwarrior » Post

paramat wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 23:58
Crystalwarrior wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:38
It's too deeply ingrained into Minetest's identity. You abandon MTG, you abandon the entire foundation the game rests on, and you essentially have to start from scratch.
This is very wrong. MT does not need to be ingrained with any game. MT is a game engine, not a game. MT has zero reliance on MTG, MTG is not a foundation for MT, it is the other way around. Without MTG, MT is fine and complete, and nothing needs starting from scratch in the engine.
I was moreso talking about the current state of the modding scene on a cursory glance, but looking deeper into it it seems like the modders themselves recognize the need for mods that are not attached to any particular game, which paints a much brighter picture of the situation.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by sfan5 » Post

paramat wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 23:34
I think that MTG should be maintained and bugfixed, obviously, to support all that relies on it, but otherwise only get minimal attention, just occasional refinements, improvements or minor features.
Actually, it is almost in this state now, but some core devs continue to dream of developing it into a 'complete, impressive game', but usually end up do not doing anything due to lack of time and priorities. I was guilty of this too, but have now given up on those plans.
This is quite telling and reminds me of an important point with MTG that has been annoying me for a while:
If you take a look at the PRs page, there are months-old simple fixes left lying around with no interest from the MTG team.
If you believe that MTG should be put into a maintenance-only mode (or is it already in your view?), perhaps contributions should be outright refused so peoples time is not wasted.

Second, I believe the approach "it's bad so it should stay bad" is harmful.
As long as MTG is the default game* (and being honest, this is unlikely to change within the next few versions), it should be taken good care of. I believe that MTG can be a better game than it is now, even if it doesn't have mobs, hunger or an objective.
* I would even go as far as to say that MTG has to be taken care of as long as mods heavily rely on it.
paramat wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 23:34
Focussing on it takes up limited core dev time that could be spent on better games or new games.
How is writing a game from scratch ever going to result in something better than improving an existing game? (assuming you put equal time into each)
The second assumption here is that developers actually *want* to improve their game considerably, which appears to be some kind of hindrance with MTG.
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Linuxdirk » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 20:21
I would even go as far as to say that MTG has to be taken care of as long as mods heavily rely on it.
I would even go a step further and say that there should be done everything to make it easy to NOT depend on Minetest Game (namely it’s default mod and the crucial APIs and functions it provides).

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 20:21
How is writing a game from scratch ever going to result in something better than improving an existing game? (assuming you put equal time into each)
Because MTG is a bad MC clone with no real entertaining gameplay: I wouldn't like to contribute to something I think it's heading into the wrong direction. Sometimes it's better starting from scratch, and imho this is the case. If people keep going on with MTG, they'll:
1) keep the bad advertising very alive (as it's shipped by default)
2) justify the "it's a bad MC clone" critique. I literally have to explain to every person who downloads the game how to NOT create a MTG world and how to join my server instead, or actually any server: because if they do open the game, they'll start with the aforementioned critique, and about how much is boring, where are monsters etc. And I understand them completely, as I said the same thing the first time (and I kept going just because it was FOSS: a thing they might not care about)
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by sfan5 » Post

Linuxdirk wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 23:35
I would even go a step further and say that there should be done everything to make it easy to NOT depend on Minetest Game (namely it’s default mod and the crucial APIs and functions it provides).
Materials for crafting etc. are a whole another issue, but which of the APIs from default would you consider crucial?
player_api? sfinv? Everything listed in game_api.txt?
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 23:51
I wouldn't like to contribute to something I think it's heading into the wrong direction.
Considering minetest_game is currently heading in approximately no direction at all it is no surprise that you (or anyone else) wouldn't want to contribute.
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 23:51
Sometimes it's better starting from scratch, and imho this is the case.
My point was this though: If MTG had direction, using available time to turn it from a "bad MC clone" into a "decent MC clone" would be better than starting from scratch to write a subgame that is a better MC clone.
Or do you disagree on that too and think a new game should be fully started from scratch?
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 23:51
I literally have to explain to every person who downloads the game how to NOT create a MTG world and how to join my server instead, or actually any server: because if they do open the game, they'll start with the aforementioned critique, and about how much is boring, where are monsters etc.
Question regarding this: If Minetest had come with no games preinstalled, which games do you think the average person would have downloaded? Would they have enjoyed them? Would they have understood that Minetest is an engine that offers many different games (not just variations of MC clones)?
For reference these are the top games in CDB and Minetest Game would probably within the first 5 if it wasn't shipped by default.
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Linuxdirk » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 13:53
player_api? sfinv? player_api? Everything listed in game_api.txt?
That would be a good starting point, yes.
sfan5 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 13:53
For reference these are the top games in CDB and Minetest Game would probably within the first 5 if it wasn't shipped by default.
Then offer those to the players on first start and do not ship MTG by default. I highly doubt MTG would be even in the top 10 list if it wouldn’t ship important stuff for other games through it’s mods.

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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 13:53
Zughy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 23:51
Sometimes it's better starting from scratch, and imho this is the case.
My point was this though: If MTG had direction, using available time to turn it from a "bad MC clone" into a "decent MC clone" would be better than starting from scratch to write a subgame that is a better MC clone.
Or do you disagree on that too and think a new game should be fully started from scratch?
I think if a default game has to be shipped by default, it should be something like a grey square-shaped room telling you "hey there, this is an engine. You're able to do whatever you do" starting then a showcase of things you can actually do (you have to play them). You know, something like "hah, you can't do this on Minecraft!" ie. UIs popping out. A little interactive tutorial about the features of the engine
sfan5 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 13:53
Question regarding this: If Minetest had come with no games preinstalled, which games do you think the average person would have downloaded? Would they have enjoyed them? Would they have understood that Minetest is an engine that offers many different games (not just variations of MC clones)?
For reference these are the top games in CDB and Minetest Game would probably within the first 5 if it wasn't shipped by default.
I think it'd take time for MTG to go down, but it'll eventually happen. MTG is the standard, but it's a bad standard: some people maybe won't want to let it go at first, but when (and not if) better games come out, they might change their minds. For instance, Capture the Flag by ruben is more of a MC minigame than a vanilla MC
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by sfan5 » Post

Which position MTG eventually takes in ContentDB is less relevant than those first user experience questions, which I'd hoped to see answered.
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Zughy » Post

sfan5 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 20:22
Which position MTG eventually takes in ContentDB is less relevant than those first user experience questions, which I'd hoped to see answered.
>:[

1) I can't really say. Probably the first ones which, by the passing of time, should theoretically be the best ones
2) See above
3) If the tutorial I suggested is implemented by default, yes: that's what it should demonstrate to people
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Re: Minetest Game: polish, improvements and "game juice".

by Oil_boi » Post

paramat wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 23:58
Crystalwarrior wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 21:38
It's too deeply ingrained into Minetest's identity. You abandon MTG, you abandon the entire foundation the game rests on, and you essentially have to start from scratch.
This is very wrong. MT does not need to be ingrained with any game. MT is a game engine, not a game. MT has zero reliance on MTG, MTG is not a foundation for MT, it is the other way around. Without MTG, MT is fine and complete, and nothing needs starting from scratch in the engine.
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